Theweakeredge AMA - Reboot

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05.15.2021 01:33PM

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@Theweakeredge

though more specifically to increase the density of educated people in the US. So, I would just say it's a case-by-case basis, same as it is now.

Fair enough, but I am still having trouble visualizing the world you want. What are a few changes that should be made?

though - it actually isn't by much - where 0.7% of adults identify as transgender between the ages of 18-24, 05% of people over the age of 65% identity as trans - like - you do realize that this is the exact argument had against gay people right? The comparison is blinding with how obvious it is.

You just accidentally proved my point. This article is from 2016. People who were 18-24 in 2016 are people in my cohort, who were adults before this craze took hold. Transgender identification is far, far higher among current teens. Here's a concurrent 2016 study that found 3% of high schoolers identify as trans or nonconforming: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/02/05/more-u-s-teens-identify-transgender-survey-finds/306357002/

Here is a study that found 2%: https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/01/24/cdc-nearly-percent-high-school-students-identify-transgender-more-than-one-third-them-attempt-suicide/

These numbers are four to six times the background rate of gender dysphoria observed in other age cohorts. Moreover, it tends to cluster within friend groups: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUPHqTkL5Nw There is definitely something going on, what do you think it is?

And this is a big question that a lot of cis people have, and the answer is simple, what defines or distinguishes gender is your experience, unless you have a specific way of measuring neurologic connections with regard to interpreting data, it is literally the only way you can distinguish, so you know how you do that? You just ask the individual, its the same thing as being straight or gay.

I mean being gay seems pretty objective. You are attracted to your same sex. But you are failing to identify what even defines gender. If it's just what someone says why do we need to give people puberty blockers . If it is all just what people identify as, and an adult man can have functioning breasts, why do we need to block puberty?

Though the confusion is understandable you being an admitted bigot isn't - that's just being a dick.

I don't care. I view this as incredibly destructive and I'm willing to be called whatever names necessary to push back on it.

Um... you do realize that you need a job to pay for.... anything? Right? Like, do you think that if these workers COULD get a better job they wouldn't? Like what the hell? People HAVE to pay for rent, for food, for water, for electricity, all of the above - of course they agree - a lot of times its the only work they can find!

Yeah, and I don't have a problem with that. If we ever get to a point where there simply aren't jobs to be had (such as a great depression situation, or early on in the pandemic) the government should step in to help people, but if times are normal and people can get a job what is morally wrong with expecting them to pay their own way? Businesses should of course be regulated to provide fair wages. Nothing is free. The men fixing utility lines and whatnot have to be paid from somewhere, the only question is if it's going to be through a corporation or through the government. I simply don't see the moral obligation I have to take care of someone who doesn't want to work

#62

ebuc

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Posts: 4,298

ebuc

05.15.2021 01:43PM

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@Theweakeredge

Ebuc....1} What are you afraid of most, personally? 2} What are your worst fears beyond yourself?

My worst personal fears are death by fire.

My worst fears beyond myself are death of humanity by hydrogen bomb wars ergo death many by fire.

Topic's author

#63

Debates: 33

Posts: 3,457

05.15.2021 02:21PM

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@thett3

"Some experts believe rising awareness of transgender issues has led increasing numbers of transgender teens to come out, or to experiment with gender identification.
“With growing trans visibility in the United States, some youth might find it safer to come out and talk about gender exploration,” Rider said.
But differences in estimates may also reflect differences in how gender identity questions are phrased, Rider said."

But also... I have no access to the study - even if I were to grant that the methodology is good (which I can't confirm given only access to a news story and vague explanations) - it literally explains in your source how the conclusion you come to is definitely not supported by the data. And again, this is assuming your study is valid. As for the disproportionate level of mental health emergencies that trans people go through? Well no duh - these people are literally oppressed on a daily basis, told that their identity doesn't exist, and that their existence is a "mental illness", yeah, no freaken' duh they have higher rates of suicide.,

As for the age of majority thing... uh - you wouldn't be able to be drafted or join active military lines until you were 21, and you'd only be able to join for training or non-combat roles until you turned 21, moving up the age for official driver's license would do a lot to mitigate things - and I suppose you would also have to change the "fine" system with policing teenagers driving, instead of making them go to prison for driving illegally, or being fined, make 'em go to community service, it would do a heck lot more to hep them then sending them to juive or fining them money they can't afford.

Um... I already explained that actually... a while back - gender is - quoting myself here:

the basics are that gender identity is a neurological connection between how you perceives things and your experience (how data is input, and how you interpret that data as a human) -

And from the post after that, elaborating on that:

what defines or distinguishes gender is your experience, unless you have a specific way of measuring neurologic connections with regard to interpreting data, it is literally the only way you can distinguish, so you know how you do that? You just ask the individual, its the same thing as being straight or gay.

You quite literally quote me explaining gender for you...and then say I haven't defined gender, I'm sorry did you miss it or are you being disingenuous here? Furthermore, it is no more than the right anti-depressant meds are - and no.. you don't just "ask for hormone blockers" you go through literal years of self-expression and discussion with licensed therapists, and only after they cleared it are you allowed puberty blockers... your ignorance is something that is again understandable, but if you want to talk or make actual judgments, as you have, then you need to do more research than just confirming your biases.

Um... because despite the fact that we aren't in repression - there are still millions in poverty, regardless, its about the principle of the matter - you shouldn't have to pay for things you need to live. "If it ain't broken don't fix it" is certainly a nice expression, it does delay progress though.

#64

Debates: 2

Posts: 2,005

05.15.2021 02:53PM

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@Theweakeredge

But also... I have no access to the study - even if I were to grant that the methodology is good (which I can't confirm given only access to a news story and vague explanations) - it literally explains in your source how the conclusion you come to is definitely not supported by the data. And again, this is assuming your study is valid. As for the disproportionate level of mental health emergencies that trans people go through? Well no duh - these people are literally oppressed on a daily basis, told that their identity doesn't exist, and that their existence is a "mental illness", yeah, no freaken' duh they have higher rates of suicide.,

I didn't bring up the rate of suicide/mental health problems. While I personally believe that this is very strong evidence of underlying mental illness (oppressed groups historically don't have nearly the attempted suicide rate trans people do) I find it extremely distasteful to use as an argument, and the way a lot of right leaning people talk about it comes across as extremely unsympathetic to say the least.

We agree that the current youth are far, far more likely to identify as transgender than older cohorts, including people who are only in their mid twenties. The social contagion theory is that this is a social trend, and not a deep underlying and unchangeable identity. This is made more credible by observations of who identifies as transgender: the current increase is mostly being driven by teenage girls, when historically gender dysphoria was found almost exclusively in males. All of the data we have is highly suggestive of the social contagion theory. Your theory is that teenagers and younger, who you think are close to a decade away from being full adults, are NOT susceptible to social trends and that the current increase in transgenderism is driven by...what exactly? Is it really just acceptance? because you just argued these people are so oppressed that it explains other mental health problems they may have so it doesn't seem like you think the current youth environment is all that accepting

the basics are that gender identity is a neurological connection between how you perceives things and your experience (how data is input, and how you interpret that data as a human)

This doesn't mean anything, though. I'm not being disingenuous, I just genuinely don't understand what you are even saying. My experience is that I like cookies, does that have any relation to my gender identity?

If it's just what people say....why should we block puberty? I mean, if someone with functioning breasts and a uterus says they are a man, who are you to tell them differently, by your own definition? Yet, your support for "Gender affirming care" (read: hormone therapy and surgery) highly suggests that you do not personally define gender as something as vague as you describe, but in fact associate it with genitalia and secondary sex characteristics. Which leads us right back to the real question, which is what's the definition of gender?

Um... because despite the fact that we aren't in repression - there are still millions in poverty, regardless, its about the principle of the matter - you shouldn't have to pay for things you need to live. "If it ain't broken don't fix it" is certainly a nice expression, it does delay progress though.

Poverty is relative, though. Things you view as necessities, such as electricity, are things your ancestors went thousands of years without. It is vanishingly rare for someone to starve to death in the United States. You could probably find one or two edge cases, but even those typically have extenuating circumstances. Living standards have risen so much that the lifestyle of todays poor would be considered middle class (at least) in any other period of history. The modal dwelling for thousands of years was a single room cottage, and typical families would spend around 1/3rd to 1/2 of their income on food.

To be clear, that doesn't mean I don't want to help poor people. But I hardly see how the existence of inequality in and of itself is an indictment of the system. Do you think that is where our fundamental disagreement lies?

Topic's author

#65

Debates: 33

Posts: 3,457

05.15.2021 03:03PM

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@thett3

Um... no -because the only DATA you've given has supported MY ARGUMENT, what data do you have to support that claim? Because again, this happened to gay people, this happened to asexual people, this happens to literally every sexual or gendered minority - where people deny their existence because they're coming out more now - and again - as I already explained, girls tend to pass more, and are therefore much more comfortable with coming out. Also - aren't you the one who asked for all the adults coming out as trans? Because that's what I gave you - I literally gave you exactly what you asked for and now you're shifting the goalpost with regards to the point of bringing them up.

Um - its pretty straightforward - gender is a way that your brain perceives and interprets data - a fundamental set in fact. You experience being straight or gay, kising other guys as a guy doesn't necessarily mean your straight, sexual intercourse can't be what sexuality is, because sexuality in this regard is intrinsically referring to the way you experience things. The difference is that male-ness and female-ness are already abstract enough, so the only people who can really identify which is the way they perceive things is themself, same way as gay people only being able to identify their feelings - the mere fact that its more complicated doesn't mean its not valid.

Um... no? Because people who have opposing gender and sex sometimes like to have their sex match more closely to their gender, so they have hormones and transitioning... because sex and gender are different - and that contrast is what literally makes up gender dysphoria, as I already explained.

As for the last thing - whenever that system perpetuates poverty through ideology, heck yeah its indicative of the system.

#66

Debates: 2

Posts: 2,005

05.15.2021 03:19PM

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@Theweakeredge

Um... no -because the only DATA you've given has supported MY ARGUMENT, what data do you have to support that claim?

The data that the amount of children identifying as trans has skyrocketed. It's hard for me to find exact data very quickly, but it appears the situation is even more profound in other western countries. Check out this data from the UK...the number has increased 10x in a decade: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/361/6406/958/F1.large.jpg Are you really willing to argue that, actually, there's nothing going on here except more open minds?

BTW since you brought it up...why DO you think mental health problems are so prolific among trans people? I know you said oppression, but what is unique about this oppression in particular? Because oppressed groups historically did not have a 33-40% suicide attempt rate, I assure you. You know what group DOES historically attempt suicide at a high rate? Mentally ill teenage girls.

gender is a way that your brain perceives and interprets data - a fundamental set in fact...The difference is that male-ness and female-ness are already abstract enough, so the only people who can really identify which is the way they perceive things is themself, same way as gay people only being able to identify their feelings - the mere fact that its more complicated doesn't mean its not valid.

This still is not a coherent definition. I'm not trying to be rude, but what does the way my brain interprets data such as the color of the sky have to do with my gender? Please be more specific. If you think male and female are abstract, vague concepts, then why are hormone blockers necessary? If someone with a penis, adams apple, and a deep voice claims to be a woman, how does surgically removing his penis make them more of a woman? If gender is a vague, undefinable concept that can only be ascertained through listening to what people say.

As for the last thing - whenever that system perpetuates poverty through ideology, heck yeah its indicative of the system.

How do you define poverty?

Topic's author

#67

Debates: 33

Posts: 3,457

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/suicidality-transgender-adults/

05.15.2021 03:45PM

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@thett3

What the actual hell man? This data CONTRADICTS YOUR ARGUMENT - the highest rate in this graph are adolescent boys - or should we say girls, and yes we should - because that graph identifying them by sex isn't very consistent with an epistemological position of expression. Furthermore, we've been talkin' about America - that's quite explicitly what my numbers have been referring to - that's what the previous study you presented was about, why the sudden shift to UK graphs? Also can you even source that graph? Because right now it has no data to actually support it. And... yes! Because that's exactly what it is! It's not just "more opened minds" i guess you could say- now not as many people want to find and kill people for being trans! Cause ya know hate crimes!

General Risk Factors
Transgender people have many of the same risk factors for suicidality as found in the U.S. general population, such as depression, substance use, and housing instability. Similar to these trends in the U.S. general population, we found an elevated prevalence of suicide thoughts and attempts among USTS respondents who:
Experienced serious psychological distress and reported heavy alcohol or illicit drug use (excluding marijuana);
Reported poor general health compared to those who reported excellent health (19.9% versus 3.6% past-year suicide attempts);
Reported having a disability, experienced homelessness in the past year, or had ever been arrested for any reason.
Unique Risk Factors
In addition to general risk factors, transgender people have additional risk factors, such as experiences of discrimination, stigma, family rejection, and lack of access to gender-affirming health care. Findings regarding these unique factors include the following:
Experiencing discrimination or mistreatment in education, employment, housing, health care, in places of public accommodations, or from law enforcement is associated with a higher prevalence of suicide thoughts and attempts. For example, the prevalence of past-year suicide attempts by those who reported that they had been denied equal treatment in the past year because they are transgender was more than double that of those who had not experienced such treatment (13.4% compared to 6.3%).
Those who reported that their spouses, partners, or children rejected them because they are transgender reported a higher prevalence of lifetime and past-year suicide attempts. Those
who reported rejection by their family of origin, for example, reported twice the prevalence of past-year suicide attempts compared to those who had not experienced such rejection (10.5%compared to 5.1%).
Respondents who had been rejected by their religious communities or had undergone conversion therapy were more likely to report suicide thoughts and attempts. For instance, 13.1 percent of those who had experienced religious rejection in the past year had attempted suicide in the past year; by contrast, 6.3 percent of respondents who had experienced religious acceptance in the past year attempted suicide in the past year.
Experiences of violence, including intimate partner violence (IPV) are associated with higher prevalence of suicide thoughts and attempts. Over 30 percent of those who were physically attacked in a place of public accommodation reported attempting suicide in the past year, which is over four times the prevalence among respondents who were not similarly attacked.
Those who had “de-transitioned” at some point, meaning having gone back to living according to their sex assigned at birth, were significantly more likely to report suicide thoughts and attempts, both past-year and lifetime, than those who had never “de-transitioned.” Nearly 12 percent of those who “de-transitioned” attempted suicide in the past year compared to 6.7 percent of those who have not “de-transitioned.”
People who are not viewed by others as transgender and those who do not disclose to others that they are transgender reported a lower prevalence of suicide thoughts and attempts. For instance, 6.3 percent of those who reported that others can never tell they are transgender attempted suicide in the past year compared to 12.2 percent of those who reported that others can always tell they are transgender.
The cumulative effect of minority stress is associated with a higher prevalence of suicidality. For instance, 97.7 percent of those who had experienced four discriminatory or violence experiences in the past year (being fired or forced to resign from a job, eviction, experiencing homelessness, and physical attack) reported seriously thinking about suicide in the past year and 51.2 percent made a suicide attempt in the past year.
We also found that there are some factors that are associated with lower risk of suicide thoughts and attempts for USTS respondents:
Respondents with supportive families reported lower prevalence of past-year and lifetime suicide thoughts and attempts.
Those who wanted, and subsequently received, hormone therapy and/or surgical care had a substantially lower prevalence of past-year suicide thoughts and attempts than those who wanted hormone therapy and surgical care and did not receive them.
A lower proportion of respondents who lived in a state with a gender identity nondiscrimination statute reported past-year suicide thoughts and attempts than those who lived in states without such a statute.

First of all, unless you had a time machine and methodological survey, you really couldn't have ANY data to support that claim - you could try to compare the discrimination to today's other minorities, but the fact of the matter is that transgender people are discriminated more than ANY OTHER MINORITY TODAY - furthermore - yeah whenever we're talking about denying a neurological expression, of course, discrimination does more harm! Like - its not just "individual" discrimination either - did you know that there is a thing called the "trans-panic defence"? Where people who assault transgender people can get off scot-free using the legal defence that they panicked because the person was trans? We've barely started to push to get rid of this in 2019?? Yeah, you can bet that would exasperate the problem.

You are not reading a single thing - GENDER and SEX are two different things - people go through transitioning to feel comfortable with their sex, to make their sex match their gender- which I ALREADY EXPLAINED:

the intrinsic discomfort and experiential pain of having your sex not match your gender.

At this point I don't think you are actually honestly representing my positions. What does the sky have to do with anything? Why are you using that specific example - its not any one individual experience ITS A WAY OF EXPERIENCING THINGS, just like gay people, I've explained it all to you - you repeating "I don't get it" when you've been dishonest in the same post really doesn't give me much hope that you actually are trying to understand.

Living with an annual income below the living wage.

#68

Debates: 2

Posts: 2,005

05.15.2021 04:04PM

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@Theweakeredge

What the actual hell man? This data CONTRADICTS YOUR ARGUMENT - the highest rate in this graph are adolescent boys - or should we say girls, and yes we should - because that graph identifying them by sex isn't very consistent with an epistemological position of expression. Furthermore, we've been talkin' about America - that's quite explicitly what my numbers have been referring to - that's what the previous study you presented was about, why the sudden shift to UK graphs? Also can you even source that graph? Because right now it has no data to actually support it. And... yes! Because that's exactly what it is! It's not just "more opened minds" i guess you could say- now not as many people want to find and kill people for being trans! Cause ya know hate crimes!

Check it again, it clearly shows that the increase is among girls. But you're right, the data came from this source, but unfortunately it was paywalled so I just linked the pretty picture instead: https://www.economist.com/international/2020/12/12/an-english-ruling-on-transgender-teens-could-have-global-repercussions

True, we have been talking about America but the UK seems to have much better data (probably due to the NHS), and social trends in both countries tend to line up. But sure, we can go back to the US, where we both agree that the rate of transgenderism among youth has skyrocketed. Here is an excerpt from the portion of the article I can see:

"America had one gender clinic in 2007; now it has more than 50. Piecemeal evidence around the world suggests that three-quarters of children expressing gender dysphoria at such clinics are adolescent girls, whereas until recently it was roughly evenly split. An increasing number are also de-transitioning, choosing to revert to their previous gender. Unfortunately, if children have already begun a medical transition, including hormone treatment, it can leave them infertile and unable to have a full sex life."

you could try to compare the discrimination to today's other minorities, but the fact of the matter is that transgender people are discriminated more than ANY OTHER MINORITY TODAY -

Even if this were true, I was talking about historical groups. I just googled "Holocaust survivor suicide attempt rate" and found this: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16085786/ A group of people who literally witnessed their family members being sent away to camps where they were gassed to death and then thrown in ovens has a lower suicide attempt rate than transgendered people. There is simply no way that the discrimination against them is anywhere near comparable to what Jews went through in the Holocaust, so the explanation has to be something else. What do you think is going on?

You are not reading a single thing - GENDER and SEX are two different things - people go through transitioning to feel comfortable with their sex, to make their sex match their gender- which I ALREADY EXPLAINED...What does the sky have to do with anything? Why are you using that specific example - its not any one individual experience ITS A WAY OF EXPERIENCING THINGS, just like gay people, I've explained it all to you - you repeating "I don't get it" when you've been dishonest in the same post really doesn't give me much hope that you actually are trying to understand.

So is someone with a penis and a flat chest less of a woman than someone with breasts and a vagina? I mean, if it is just a way of experiencing things why should we try to stop puberty...you can experience something regardless of gender, unless it is like childbirth or producing semen or something, in which case all the hormone therapy in the world can't make you do if it isn't a part of your sex. I promise you I am trying to understand. "A way of experiencing things" just seems super vague when you're saying this is why we should give hormonal therapy to children lol. It seems to me that you do indeed link gender with sex characteristics such as genitalia, traditional roles, etc

#69

RationalMadman

Debates: 565

Posts: 19,930

RationalMadman

05.15.2021 04:13PM

If your best friend is rich, would you steal from him/her/them to give to an enemy in financial need?

Topic's author

#70

Debates: 33

Posts: 3,457

05.15.2021 05:21PM

RMM

Im not sure honestly - I think it would depend on how financially in need that person is in. presuming I have the ability to even steal anything that is.

Topic's author

#71

Debates: 33

Posts: 3,457

05.15.2021 05:46PM

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@thett3

the light blue indicates "male children", and that has reached nearly 1800, in contrast, "female children" are marked in a tannish color and reach 1600. Clearly the unrepresentative graph doesn't agree with your conclusions. Also... this isn't a study... this is an anecdotal example as far as I can read - if you can find some other source that backs up your data then I'll accept the data. However.. what evidence has lead you to believing that the UK has better measurements regarding the trans people in the US than the US? Hm? I'm curious to know - furthermore - you've completely dropped the point that there are nearly as many old people who are transgender, like, you've just brushed that aside - even though you asked for it.

Also - no - I am not going to accept that claim you've presented until you have some actual data that can support it.

"Puberty is a highly important time for people coming to an understanding of their gender identity. A significant fraction of individuals who are gender nonconforming in childhood may end up identifying as gay, lesbian, bisexual, or another sexual minority rather than as transgender late adolescents and adults. This is generally referred to as desistance rather than detransition. Detransition, or retransition, is generally only used to describe someone who has transitioned socially or medically into a different gender role. An example of this is someone who was assigned female, lived socially as male for many years, and then returned to living as a woman. These types of cases tend to be very rare, and are even rarer in individuals who have accessed any medical or surgical care to affirm their gender. Language is important. Many activists and allies encourage the use of retransition rather than detransition to recognize that gender is a journey that may not necessarily go in a straight line. The term detransition is often used by individuals who want to restrict access to gender affirming care out of concern that it could lead to regret.

While regret is possible, it is rare. Lack of access to affirming care has been shown to have more concrete risks.Another study looked at surgeons who offered gender affirming procedures. Looking at 46 surgeons who had worked with 22,725 patients, there were only 62 documented cases of regret (0.27%)."

Especially not whenever the data so diametrically opposes that claim

” Eight percent (8%) ofrespondents reported having de-transitioned atsome point. Most of those who de-transitioneddid so only temporarily: 62% of those who hadde-transitioned reported that they were currentlyliving full time in a gender different than thegender they were thought to be at birth....Respondents who had de-transitioned cited arange of reasons, though only 5% of those whohad de-transitioned reported that they had doneso because they realized that gender transitionwas not for them, representing 0.4% of the overallsample.42 The most common reason cited forde-transitioning was pressure from a parent(36%). Twenty-six percent (26%) reported thatthey de-transitioned due to pressure from otherfamily members, and 18% reported that they detransitioned because of pressure from their spouseor partner." (pg 115)

All of it, opposes that claim.

Regarding the study - you are misrepresneting it - it is the suicidation of halocaust surviors AND WWII veterans - please do not misrepresent your own data like that - furthermore - it IS CERTAINLY not representative. Did you know that your study only measures 374 halocaust surivors?

"Of 921 eligible patients, 374 were Holocaust survivors; 135 (14.6%) had attempted suicide in the month before admission"

Do you know how many lived in Iseral alone? Hmm? Would you like to know?

"At the end of 2008, there were some 233,700 Holocaust survivors in Israel. The number ofsurvivors is decreasing and the projection for 2015 is 143,900 survivors and for 2025,approximately 46,900 survivors."

So a little less than 50,000? By 300 hundred? Sure, that's representative. I don't know if your reading much into your own studies, but it seems to me that you have a habbit of misquoting and taking them at face value instead of actually reading into it. Please take your time and do actual research.

Oh my god - no - you are quite literally ignoring everything I've said, cutting out swawthes of context, and not overall repeating yourself. The reason trangender people do that is to feel that their SEX matches what is percieved of their GENDER - because guess what? People judge them BASED ON THAT! Gender dysphoria is a reaction to people, it is not, however, a status that transgender people have neccessarily. I do not think you are arguing in good faith, if you are, you are quite.. well ignorant. At least very bad at reading studies.

#72

Conway

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Posts: 278

Conway

05.15.2021 06:05PM

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@Theweakeredge

What kind of church do you prefer, and what do you think of the one(s) you were generally raised with?

#73

Debates: 2

Posts: 2,005

05.15.2021 07:05PM

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@Theweakeredge

the light blue indicates "male children", and that has reached nearly 1800, in contrast, "female children" are marked in a tannish color and reach 1600. Clearly the unrepresentative graph doesn't agree with your conclusions. Also... this isn't a study... this is an anecdotal example as far as I can read - if you can find some other source that backs up your data then I'll accept the data.

Ahh I can see the confusion now. This is a stacked area chart. It isn't that "male children" are at 1800, it is that all categories combined are at 1800. So female adolescents have risen to ~1100, male adolescents to about ~350, and the rest split by male and female children. This shows the growth over time, which primarily came from an exponential increase in female adolescents identifying as trans. This is not an anecdotal example, but rather is a summation of all youth referred to a gender clinic by the NHS, however I will grant you that it is not about the United States. Countries in the Anglosphere do typically share similar social and political trends, but I did some digging on the USA side. Here is a study of children who underwent rapid onset gender dysphoria, 83% of the children were girls: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0202330 The methodology is not the greatest. It's more difficult to get information from America because unlike the UK, we don't have centralized records due to universal health care, however given what evidence we have I think it is safe to say that gender dysphoria is indeed on the rise among teenage girls!

Hm? I'm curious to know - furthermore - you've completely dropped the point that there are nearly as many old people who are transgender, like, you've just brushed that aside - even though you asked for it.

I didn't drop that point. I don't see how it supports your argument at all. You showed that we have data showing a remarkably consistent 0.5% percentage of the population born anywhere from the 1930s to 1996 identifies as transgender. Yet, studies of current teenagers show that this rate has quadrupled or sextupled to around 2 to 3%. How does that not prove that something unique is going on among the current crop of youth? Your argument that this increase is all due to the removal of discrimination is not soundly backed, particularly when in the same post you argue that the discrimination against transgendered people is so bad that it is the reason for the high suicide attempt rates.

While regret is possible, it is rare. Lack of access to affirming care has been shown to have more concrete risks.Another study looked at surgeons who offered gender affirming procedures. Looking at 46 surgeons who had worked with 22,725 patients, there were only 62 documented cases of regret (0.27%)."

This isn't a survey of transgendered people, it's a survey asking surgeons if their patients expressed regret to them. How would they even know if they regretted it, unless the patient told them immediately after the surgery? Moreover this is not relevant to the meat of our discussion, because the transgender mania did not really take off until around a decade ago. The people who got surgery prior to 2018 when the study was published would've been a part of the 0.5% background rate of transgenderism, not the 2-3% we see in current youth. The background rate people (who are overwhelmingly male) are a much trickier subject. Certainly, there is a distinct difference between elective treatment of a consenting adult and elective treatment of a child. Remember that you don't even believe that 18 year olds are adults capable of making complicated decisions, much less 13 year olds! We will absolutely 100% be seeing tons of people who regretted going on puberty blockers and opposite sex hormones as impressionable teenagers when they realize it caused them to be infertile, removed several inches off of their adult height, made them have a micropenis, etc. I would bet my life on that. Zero doubt.

This is why I find the whole thing so disgusting. These children are going to have permanent damage to their bodies because nobody is willing to say no.

Regarding the study - you are misrepresneting it - it is the suicidation of halocaust surviors AND WWII veterans - please do not misrepresent your own data like that - furthermore - it IS CERTAINLY not representative. Did you know that your study only measures 374 halocaust surivors?

It isn't, actually. Re-read it. The abstract mentions WWII veterans, but the data is all about Holocaust survivors. True, it is not a representative sample. It is a sample of Holocaust survivors in psychiatric hospitals, so it actually selects for mentally ill people...and their attempted suicide rate is STILL lower than transgendered people. The common narrative, which I assume you accept, is that black people are oppressed in the United States, but their suicide rate is well below the rate for white Americans: https://sprc.org/scope/racial-ethnic-disparities Oppression simply is not a credible explanation for the mental health issues that transgender youth go through. There has to be another explanation. What do you think is going on?

Oh my god - no - you are quite literally ignoring everything I've said, cutting out swawthes of context, and not overall repeating yourself. The reason trangender people do that is to feel that their SEX matches what is percieved of their GENDER - because guess what? People judge them BASED ON THAT! Gender dysphoria is a reaction to people, it is not, however, a status that transgender people have neccessarily. I do not think you are arguing in good faith, if you are, you are quite.. well ignorant. At least very bad at reading studies.

The point is that if gender is not inextricably linked with sex characteristics (women having a breasts, less body hair, etc) why is it so imperative to prevent children from going through puberty? If by your definition a tall, burly, hairy, deep voiced person with an adams apple and a penis can be a woman, so be it. Why prevent her from becoming that individual, then? This is significant because if gender IS inextricably linked with sex characteristics, which I believe that it is and I suspect that you do as well, transition is never going to work. No matter how hard you try, a man can never be made into a woman and vice versa. Our bodies are just too different, and denying that is sheer folly.

#74

Debates: 5

Posts: 3,303

05.15.2021 08:55PM

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@Theweakeredge

Your from rural Texas; how are you even the slightest bit left let alone a socialist?

#75

Debates: 5

Posts: 3,303

05.15.2021 08:56PM

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@Theweakeredge

What do you think of privatizing the police?

#76

Debates: 2

Posts: 2,005

05.15.2021 08:57PM

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@Theweakeredge

The transgenderism topic is getting boring, I’ll probably let you have the last word unless you say something I can’t resist going after lol. I saw you had a debate where you argued for more immigrants that your opponent forfeited. I haven’t debated in a long time but find myself with a greater deal of free time than usual and would take you up on that if you want

#77

Debates: 6

Posts: 1,950

05.15.2021 10:58PM

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@Theweakeredge

> The age of majority should be 21.... that's all. Pretty easy it is.

It is very interesting to hear you say that. Like thett, I am a fair bit older than you (and he's around my age too). When I was 16-17, I was arguing that kids should have the right to vote. I also was arguing to lower the drinking age, expand youth rights and generally expand their legal status.

Even now, I'd let kids 14 and older:

1. Buy beer/wine;

2. Buy tobacco products;

3. Buy marijuana products;

4. Obtain learners permits for vehicle driving (although I think the 16-year old driving age cutoff is reasonable for full licensure); and

5. Maybe vote in elections.

I would also allow kids 14 and older (so, minimal high school age) to:

1. Consent to medical care, make medical decisions independently of their parents and seek abortions and/or contraception without parental involvement in any regard;

2. Consent to sexual encounters, in a general sense;

3. Enter into contracts of less than 5,000 dollars, without the need for a parental co-signer;

4. Obtain loans for student-related expenses, education-related needs and the like, without a parental or adult co-signer; and

5. Consent to accepting risks/sign waivers/releases (e.g., theme-parks, air-soft competitions, paintball competitions).

I see no reason why the state needs to restrict kids from doing any of those things. Ffs, in many states you can get married when you're 13-14 but you can't obtain medical care without parental consent? Insane.

Topic's author

#78

Debates: 33

Posts: 3,457

05.15.2021 11:24PM

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@Conway

I prefer no church, and I raise raised baptists - they are sometimes less homophobic than other churches? Slightly.

Topic's author

#79

Debates: 33

Posts: 3,457

05.15.2021 11:29PM

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@coal

Generally because at that age, being coerced is really easy not to mention the idea of 14 year old's driving, this time much more due to its legality. If there was a much more rigorous licensing requirement, perhaps. The one thing I can agree with is the medical decisions, except I for when in regards that they should also have the go ahead from a doctor or other health professional. I suppose a lot of this is circumstantial, but I also think that-in general-just like drinking it should be regulated to 21 and older because of how the frontal cortex forms - that is to say - wackily until 21.

Topic's author

#80

Debates: 33

Posts: 3,457

05.15.2021 11:31PM

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@TheUnderdog

*Sigh* The internet, without it I would doubtlessly be much more narrowed in my politics. I think the Internet is truly one of the greatest tools humans have invented in a while.

What do you think of privatizing the police?

I think it would make the issues we already have, worse.

Topic's author

#81

Debates: 33

Posts: 3,457

05.15.2021 11:41PM

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@thett3

Yup - I'm not gonna reply in-depth, I don't see the need to - your position has continuously been disingenuous - you say you have data to support your claims but the one you've posted about trans people is not only not representative (uhuh, less than 2000 for over 1.4 million in a different country), you have no actual data to support it. Again, you fail to actually READ the entirety of my argument, less than 400 for a sample size IS NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF THE ENTIRE POPULATION. The study's problem is that it doesn't have the data to support it's claims as a generalization.

You claim that it the number of teens have "quadrupled", yet where's your data for that? Do you have anything that isn't so blatantly wrong? Are you going to ignore BOTH of my source? Because one talking about de-transition survey's transgender people directly, even if your other rebuttal wasn't already bullshit... because you do realize that THE CASE OF DE-TRANSITIONS are EXTREMELY RARE, that is the point of the study you say "isn't relevant". And it directly contradicts the quote you tried to pass off as applying to the facts.

Again, you are either extremely bad at reading studies, or being dishonest.

#82

Debates: 2

Posts: 2,005

05.15.2021 11:45PM

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@Theweakeredge

Again, you are either extremely bad at reading studies, or being dishonest.

I’ll note that I have been consistently polite to you, even when you made obvious mistakes like not knowing how to read a graph. Please debate me on immigration! We will see who is good at reading studies lol

Topic's author

#83

Debates: 33

Posts: 3,457

05.16.2021 12:11AM

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@thett3

Um... no - because - again - the graph has A) no data to support it, and B) has no axises, so you could blather on about whatever you wanted that graph to be - and I would have no idea- cause you know - no axises.

#84

Debates: 2

Posts: 2,005

05.16.2021 12:18AM

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@Theweakeredge

Debate me!

#85

Debates: 2

Posts: 2,005

05.16.2021 12:40AM

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@coal

Yeah I would lean towards giving youth more rights, not less , though I don’t think I would go as far as you. Seems to me that we stifle people in America. Our views on alcohol are particularly insane. Lots of college kids die of alcohol poisoning because they have exactly zero experience with alcohol before coming into an environment where it’s everywhere

#86

Debates: 6

Posts: 1,950

05.16.2021 02:14AM

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@thett3

You might be wondering how my views on expanding kids rights (which really is just about limiting the state's power) squares with my thoughts on "gender-affirming" health care, hormone "replacement therapies" (i.e., giving kids the same drugs that law enforcement uses to chemically castrate sex offenders).

My own view is that administering hormone "replacement therapies" or anything else like that, or worse (like "reassignment surgeries") should be illegal. So, no one should be able to receive them. And to administer them deserves jail time.

#87

Debates: 2

Posts: 2,005

05.16.2021 02:30AM

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@coal

It’s one of the great moral evils of our time. I really don’t know what else to say about it. The fact that it happens at all just makes me so depressed

#88

Debates: 6

Posts: 1,950

05.16.2021 02:35AM

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@thett3

I agree with you fully. We're going to reflect on this, 20-30 years down the road, with the same level of horror and dismay as we now reflect on lobotomies. Except this is worse. Because the hormone/gender issues are so political.

#89

Debates: 6

Posts: 1,950

05.16.2021 02:58AM

I would also add that I understand, practically at least, the intentions behind those who want to advocate for "gender affirmation" and other such beliefs. Theirs is one that arises from a position of sympathy based on what they think they understand.

The problem is that the instant, individual account of a boy who claims he was born in the wrong body is much more emotionally and psychologically gripping than the data reflecting the long-term outcomes of people in similar situations. The sources Douglas Murray cites in Madness of Crowds provide a general overview. And I know you're familiar with them, because we've talked about them before. Or at least I think we have. Yet, many --- I would even venture to say the majority --- believe otherwise. Even if they've seen the data, they can't square it with their politics. So they reject it, which is what most people do when their politics conflict with the facts. It's not that they're bad people, so much as they're just people who can't deal with that cognitive dissonance.

The genuine evil comes in from the doctors, psychiatrists and medical "experts" who either know what they're saying is a lie or have failed to take even those minimally adequate steps to familiarize themselves with the relevant clinical literature. An example of such evil would be the so-called "Doctor" appointed by Biden, "Rachael" Levine. He is a disgrace to the medical profession.

Topic's author

#90

Debates: 33

Posts: 3,457