why aren't non-gun murders wildly out of control in the usa?

Author: n8nrgmi

Posts

Total: 87
n8nrgmi
n8nrgmi's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,499
3
2
3
n8nrgmi's avatar
n8nrgmi
3
2
3

-You can tell this is a gun problem, not just a bad person problem as the gun lobby says, also by comparing non-gun homicides of similar countries as the USA, and then adding guns to the mix: non-gun homicides are slightly on the higher side but within normal range, while gun homicides go wildly higher. If this was a bad person problem at its core, there would be a wildly higher amount of non-gun homicides as well, but that's not the case. Included is an article describing this phenomenon and a link with a graph 

it's possible that folks just use guns instead of other weopons to kill, such that non-gun murders are within the global normal range. but that's not the most strightforlward interpretation. it goes against logic. non-gun murders should be wildly out of control, too, even if it's not to the same extent as gun murders. 

we have half the world's guns and our murder rate is way out of control, particularly gun murders. this is pretty obvious what is happening.

but it's not just gun v non gun murders, there's a ton of other persruavsive evidence that points to guns causing more murder than would otheriwise occur without so many guns.

GUN CONTROL SCIENCE
-where there is more gun control, there is less murder. this is the scientific consensus, as shown with the literature review. being a literature review makes this a lot more informing than just being a single study; we see the consensus forming. also included is a link to a poll of scientists but a literature review itself makes the claims even stronger.
-where there are more guns, there is more murder, across geographic regions from localities and larger. this is also a lot more informing because it a literature review of lots of studies. what's more, people are shown not to kill with other weopons instead of guns, as is often argued, because if they did there would be no correlation here.
-women are five times more likely to be killed if their significant other has a gun. this is a practical point in illustration of the guns v murders correlation. same in individual lives as general trends
-you are more likely to be murdered if you have a gun, as well as those close to you
-States with more gun control have fewer mass shootings
-only around two hundred and fifty killings are done in the name of self defense per year. people like to pretend defense is such a huge thing, but the odds of being murdered is is closer to forty times higher. the odds of being shot and not necessarily killed are upwards of four hundred times higher. 
-we have half the worlds guns in the usa but a small percent of the worlds population
-Police are more likely to kill unjustifiably in low gun control and high gun areas due to their increased fear, and police are more likely to be shot themselves in those areas.
-Compared to 22 other high-income nations, the United States' gun-related murder rate is 25 times higher. 
-High school kids in the USA are eighty two times more likely to be shot than the same kids in other developed countries.
-it is claimed that most murders are gang related, but this looks to be factually incorrect in the link. even if higher numbers floating around on the internet are true, our murder problem still there if you take out the gang murders from consideration. the numbers here can be arrived at with basic math. 
-this really isn't just a mental health problem. we don't have more people with mental health problems than other countries.... just more people with guns.  the study controls for mental health factors v other factors. 
-we dont have more crime than the rest of the world, just a lot more people getting shot and killed. you aren't more likely to be mugged here, for instance, but you are more likely to be mugged and shot in the process. again a gun problem. showing it's not just deviants being deviants as some suggest but an emphasis on the gun problem.
-You can tell this is a gun problem, not just a bad person problem as the gun lobby says, also by comparing non-gun homicides of similar countries as the USA, and then adding guns to the mix: non-gun homicides are slightly on the higher side but within normal range, while gun homicides go wildly higher. If this was a bad person problem at its core, there would be a wildly higher amount of non-gun homicides as well, but that's not the case. Included is an article describing this phenomenon and a link with a picture. 
-people like to say assault rifles are not that dangerous, because there are only a few hundred murders with them per year out of only around ten or so thousand of gun murders. the thing is though, the percent chance an assault rifle will be used to kill someone is significantly higher than the chance other guns will be used to kill someone. ///  you can do the math yourself. there are 2.5 million assault rifles in circulation. 374 rifle deaths per year. there are 11000 gun homicides. there's a gun for every person in the usa, 340 million. what's the math say? 374 divided by 11000 is 3.4 percent of deaths are from rifles. 2.5 milliion divided by 340 milliion is less than a percent. so what does this mean? despite rifles being less than a percent of guns, they cause 3.4 percent of deaths. that is, a rifle has a higher percent chance of being used to murder than a non rifle. most guns that are used in murder are hand guns, but assault rifles are more likely to be chosen over a hand gun when faced with that choice. just like, as an analogy, people are more likely to speed in a sports car, but most cars that speed are not sports cars.  
-people like to throw around number of defensive gun use. the idea is that not all defensive gun uses result in a killing. the most common number in literature is tens of thousands, though the number vary wildly. the only thing is, even if you are more likely to use a gun in self defense than being murdered, you are still more likely to be murdered than someone who doesn't have a gun. also, a lot of those thousands of defensive uses are not all that critical.... downplaying their significance. and, a lot of those 'defensive' uses were actually situations that were people instigating and escalating a situation that wouldn't otherwise exist, as the link below illustrates. even if we used the higher numbers, is it all that convincing that there are tens of thousands more near murders in a nation with already a globally disproportionate number of murders? it holds true, that we could give lots more people guns, and that may increase defensive use... but it would come at the cost of more murder, too.
-for more on giving an overview of the gun issues, see the following
-in the usa, the number of murders has overall gone down in recent decades. the thing is, while the number of guns went up, the number of people owning them went down. also, this is just one measure: all the other measure include all the countries and localities where gun levels are proportionate to murder rates.
-for more information on gun policy in the usa and other countries: www.gunpolicy.org 
-australia. they enacted major gun reform around twenty years ago after a mass shooting. they bought back a bunch of guns and enacted other gun control. their mass shootings stopped. this almost surely is not an anomloy. their homicides dropped by up to fifty percent. the idea is a lower murder rate came with a lower percent of people owning guns (note that this is different than the specific gun ownership rate because if less people own more guns that could cause the percent owning to go down but the overall rate could be the same). misinformation attempts like to point that overall murder went up slightly after reform, but the rate did not and went down. also, the number of guns have gone up closer to previous level but the gun ownership rate is still lower. it is true that global murder went down, and some of that correlates with australi's rate... but global reductions arent as drastic s australia's.
-japan. they literally have barely any murders, and barely any guns. they have a rigorous process for allowing guns

n8nrgmi
n8nrgmi's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,499
3
2
3
n8nrgmi's avatar
n8nrgmi
3
2
3
im like next to positive people who try to argue against the science here, are going to completely ignore why non-gun homicides aren't wildly out of control too. that's always what happens in this debate. they'll argue something illogical and ignore the opening most important question in this thread. 
Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 3,457
4
7
10
Theweakeredge's avatar
Theweakeredge
4
7
10
-->
@n8nrgmi
It's good research (though your use of news sources is... questionable), but I would recommend a more structured and more obviously substantiated post. People like to deny arguments by all avenues, making your post needlessly hard to read just gives them another excuse
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,113
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10

kek


badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,087
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
The only guns I ever see are belonged to army escorts for cash vans, the AUG HBAR, and they do freak me out a little. Ya know, I'm actually convinced that all of you guys' school shootings, and mass shootings, and what have you, are all actually down to something like the prisoner's dilemma of game theory, eventually it just becomes kill or be killed, it's only sensible with all those guns lying around.


Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,113
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@n8nrgmi
Crime is mostly a Democrat problem.

The best way to be killed by a criminal is to vote for a Democrat and then choose to live in the city afterwards. Every city run by Democrats is a shooting gallery for criminals.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,113
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@badger
The problem is America has way too many toys and not enough accountability. It's a real pitri dish of primal urges and survival of the fittest in action.
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,087
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
So more accountability and less toys?
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,113
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@badger
Like the rest of the world? Sure.
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,087
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,113
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@n8nrgmi
-japan. they literally have barely any murders, and barely any guns. they have a rigorous process for allowing guns
Japan is culturally homogenous. Which culture do you want to make exclusive and dominant in America so that there are no more tribal wars in the streets? Hopefully not European or British since it's objectively the worst and most permissive culture.

Might I suggest Chinese culture as they have shown exactly how to deal with minority cultures and how to destroy any chance of domestic conflict festering in the streets.
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@n8nrgmi
You can tell this is a gun problem, not just a bad person problem as the gun lobby says,
Show me the gun that killed a person entirely on its own, without ever being handled by a person. I have never seen, and never will see the headline, "Gun breaks in and
kills neighbor while its owner was out of town"

I can tell you join many who believe in anthropomorphized guns, but that is a fantasy.
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@Greyparrot
kek
I will say that we are great at cracking down on beheadings in the US. I wonder why Europe has such a big beheading problem.

Eh, the knives must be at fault- nothing else 

Japan is culturally homogenous
It is almost as if East Asians have low murder rates in every place they go.

Huh, I wonder if other groups also carry their murder rates with them as they migrate.... 🤔

That’d be something interesting to look into!
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@n8nrgmi
-japan. they literally have barely any murders, and barely any guns. they have a rigorous process for allowing guns
They also have one of the highest suicide rates out there.

Maybe not having fun guns to shoot is driving that high rate.

Obviously correlation equals causation.

And Switzerland has the 18th highest gun ownership rate in the world, but is ranked 211th/230 in the world for highest murder rate.

Finland has the 10th highest gun ownership and is ranked 173rd

The Falkland Islands have also supposedly had one murder over the past 30 years (super hard to find homicide data from there https://en.mercopress.com/2012/10/05/residents-leave-doors-open-round-the-clock-in-crime-free-falkland-islands). They also have the second highest gun ownership rate!

Wow, I wonder how these countries with so many guns have such low murder rates! I wonder if something other than guns is responsible.....


ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,842
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
Data data data. The way numbers can be molded

ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,842
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
people like to say assault rifles are not that dangerous, because there are only a few hundred murders with them per year out of only around ten or so thousand of gun murders. the thing is though, the percent chance an assault rifle will be used to kill someone is significantly higher than the chance other guns will be used to kill someone.
Who wants to tell him more people died by stabbings than by rifles.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,113
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@ILikePie5
Who wants to tell him more people died by stabbings than by rifles.
Topkek.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,352
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@n8nrgmi
Just to give my two pennies worth, to this dumb ass thread.

Some might suggest that all murder is "wildly out of control."

And as Mr Faux implies...It's people that murder.

So statistics show....As they do.....And other statistics, show other things.


And suicide is a Japanese tradition.

And murder is a U.S. tradition.

That's culture for you.

And the Scots have bagpipes.

And the Falkland Islanders have tenuous isolation.


And guns are as guns do.
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@ILikePie5
Who wants to tell him more people died by stabbings than by rifles.
More people also killed by hands and feet than rifles.
In your opinion, would you say that hands and feet are the real problem?
I certainly don’t feel safe knowing that people are walking around with hands and feet now that I know the facts
n8nrgmi
n8nrgmi's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,499
3
2
3
n8nrgmi's avatar
n8nrgmi
3
2
3
-->
@fauxlaw
i never said a gun on its own kills people. but a person is more likely to kill someone if they have a gun. that's just common sense, and science... both of which u lack. 
n8nrgmi
n8nrgmi's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,499
3
2
3
n8nrgmi's avatar
n8nrgmi
3
2
3
-->
@ILikePie5
knives only kill so much compared to guns, because there are so many more knives out there than rifles. this is fourth grade science that you are struggling with
n8nrgmi
n8nrgmi's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,499
3
2
3
n8nrgmi's avatar
n8nrgmi
3
2
3
i notice what i said would be true, is true.... lots of illogical posts, and nothing about why non-gun murders aren't wildly out of control. 
Conway
Conway's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 278
1
2
5
Conway's avatar
Conway
1
2
5
-->
@n8nrgmi
why aren't non-gun murders wildly out of control in the usa?
When someone says the word "murder", I'm pretty sure it's referencing a situation which one would perceive as wildly out of control. 

Is there a polite way to murder someone?  I suppose there might be some exceptions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMz7JBRbmNo
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,842
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@n8nrgmi
knives only kill so much compared to guns, because there are so many more knives out there than rifles. this is fourth grade science that you are struggling with
So? We should implement more knife control laws
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,842
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@bmdrocks21
More people also killed by hands and feet than rifles.
In your opinion, would you say that hands and feet are the real problem?
I certainly don’t feel safe knowing that people are walking around with hands and feet now that I know the facts
We should implement hand and feet control laws
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,113
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@ILikePie5
@n8nrgmi
this thread has a burnt smell about it.

Like I said before, gun murders in America are most closely correlated to the number of years a Democrat has been in absolute control of a city. The longer a Democrat has been in power, the higher are your chances for dying from a gun in that city, regardless of the number of guns actually present in said city. 

The risk is mostly confined to the urban areas of Democrat dystopias. More people get shot every month in Chicago than kids die from school shootings in a decade.
About 80% of the worst murder cites are not only run by Democrats but they are also run EXCLUSIVELY by Democrats, not just recently taken over for a short period by an opposing ideology.

Who run Murdertown?

Democrat run bartertown.

Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,113
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@bmdrocks21

bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@ILikePie5
The only way to stop stomping and punching is to cut off peoples’ hands and feet at birth.

Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,113
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@bmdrocks21
Assault hands...

Now you are just asking for more violence in hands-free zones as criminals with hands will take over.
dustryder
dustryder's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 1,080
3
2
4
dustryder's avatar
dustryder
3
2
4
-->
@Greyparrot

Statewide it seems to be correlated with how long republicans have been in control of the state.