Why I left Christianity

Author: TheUnderdog

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#91
Yassine
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@TheUnderdog
The Bible killed many Egyptians to free a smaller number of Hebrews, then defended slavery.
- Do you disagree with the premise or with the inconsistency? That is, do you have an issue against a man freeing his people who have been enslaved to be pursued by a tyrant who perishes along with his armies in their pursuit; with the brutality daubed account of the story; or with the peculiarity that these same people were made to enslave others?

- Realizing there are issues with the Bible, does not necessarily mean there are issues with Religion, or all religions. There is an age old misconception in the West regarding religion, that if any religion is correct it must be Christianity, for surely all the other religions must be worse. In fact, the only major faith with a logically absurd central doctrine is Christianity, the Trinity. Maybe you should consider the Islamic accounts of some of these Biblical stories. You will be surprised.

Sorry I didn’t respond to everything you said previously, but since I have many debates going on, forums don’t take priority.
- Good luck with your debates!

#92
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@Yassine
 Here is a short list of wars by Christians/West since the Reformation with a toll of 515 million deaths:

 
But not on the direct command of their god the Christ Jesus.    This is the point that you are purposefully ignoring and cannot accept.

The god of the Quran on the other hand commands that people die for him:



Quran (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place."     So we see clearly that even those Muslims that do believe in god  will BE PUNISHED for NOT waging holy jihad.



The god of the Quran orders people murdered simply for not believing in him:

Quran 8:12 - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them".



The Christian god of the New Testament on the other hand commands " love thy neighbour" ,  "turn the other cheek".  "Love one another as I have loved you". The Christian god is continually  pro life, where-as  the ever so `  loving and tolerant ` god the Quran , speaks for himself, doesn't he;

Quran 4:89 - They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah. But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.

Quran 51 - You, who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.




 Is it correct that to truly understand the Quran in context one has to learn it in Arabic?

#93
Yassine
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@Stephen

But not on the direct command of their god the Christ Jesus. This is the point that you are purposefully ignoring and cannot accept.
- You have it backwards. The one doing the ignoring is you. "bring them here and slaughter them before me."

The god of the Quran on the other hand commands that people die for him:
- In the cause of justice, to fight oppression & establish peace, yes.

Quran (9:38-40) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place. ˹It does not matter˺ if you ˹believers˺ do not support him, for Allah did in fact support him when the disbelievers drove him out ˹of Mecca [...]" 
- Resorting to cutting off context every time you quote a verse upon failure to find one that would support your claims, effectively proves your concession. I had to fix your extract again, since you can't be honest & properly quote the passage. It literally says the opposite of what you're claiming!

So we see clearly that even those Muslims that do believe in god  will BE PUNISHED for NOT waging holy jihad.
- It's literally a call to the Prophet's companions to support him against those who drove him out of his home... in self defense.

The god of the Quran orders people murdered simply for not believing in him:
Quran 8:12 - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them".
- You mentioned this one earlier to which my response was: - Chapter 8 relates the battle of Badr, where the Quraysh invaded Muslims. Instilling fear & striking heads is the best way to win against your enemy in battle... LOL! Your country kills millions of innocent people who aren't even enemies. In the chapter about the Battle of Badr, the passage literally ends with: "And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah." (8:61), yet again sanctioning fighting in self-defense, against the oppressor to establish peace.

The Christian god of the New Testament
- It's the same God... No matter how much you try to avoid this, Jesus (pbuh) was a jew who came to establish the Law. 

on the other hand commands " love thy neighbour" ,  "turn the other cheek".  "Love one another as I have loved you".
- From Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) sayings:
"Forgive those who transgress against you, keep ties of kinship with those who severe them, be good to those who wrong you and speak the truth even against yourself"
"He will enter Paradise only he who possesses Mercy. It is not the mercy that one has for his friend, but the Mercy for all mankind"
"The merciful are shown mercy by The Most Merciful. Be merciful on the earth, and you will be shown mercy from Who is above the heavens"
"By Allah, he is not a believer! By Allah, he is not a believer! By Allah, he is not a believer! One whose neighbor does not feel safe from his evil"
"He is not a believer who eats his fill whilst his neighbor goes hungry"
- From Jesus (pbuh) sayings [is the Islamic tradition]: 
"Virtuous action does not consist in doing good to someone who has done good to you—that is merely returning a favor. Virtuous action consists in doing good to those who have wronged you"
“You will never obtain what you desire except through patience with what you despise.”
"Do not, like lords, look at the faults of others. Rather, like servants, look at your own faults. In truth, humanity is comprised of only two types, the afflicted and the sound. So show mercy to the afflicted, and praise God for well-being"

The Christian god is continually  pro life,
- Besides the hundreds of passages in the Bible about slaughtering innocent people, even babies & animals, in Jesus's words himself according to Luke: "bring them here and slaughter them before me."... In this I agree with you, that the Bible has been greatly altered by men who injected their own words into Jesus (pbuh) in gross defamation.

where-as the ever so`  loving and tolerant ` god the Quran , speaks for himself, doesn't he;
- Indeed, from the Quran:
"Allah commands justice, the doing of good, and liberality to kith and kin, and He forbids all shameful deeds, and injustice and rebellion"
"Repel [evil] by that [deed] which is better"
"Those who defend themselves when they are oppressed. Let harm be requited by an equal harm, though anyone who forgives and puts things right will have his reward from God Himself"
"Hold to forgiveness; command what is right; But turn away from the ignorant"

Quran 4:89 -  "They [Munafiqeen] wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah. But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper. Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you"
- Who are "They"?? Who does "They" refer to? Aliens??? Or have you forgotten basic English. Aren't you tired of misquoting every single verse?! I know you had to, because it does not fit your agenda, which I already addressed: as it states, the verse is referring to Munafiqeen (those who pretended to be Muslim yet they conspired to kill the Muslims), urging Muslims to not take allies of them unless they join the Muslims, and to kill them if they defect, except those among them who do not wish to fight the Muslims and those who join allies of Muslims.

Quran 51 - You, who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.
- Yes, taking Christians or Jews as allies against Muslims is treason. I guess this is our new thing, you quote out of context & I have to expose you every time: "Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just. Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong." (60:8-9)

 Is it correct that to truly understand the Quran in context one has to learn it in Arabic?
- Absolutely. At least bring the verses in their proper context, even in English. You don't even do that! So far you have no provided a quote from the Quran which sanctions killing other than in self-defense & to establish peace. We all face God individually, each of us is responsible for his own seeking & accountable for his efforts, or lack thereof. 


#94
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@Yassine
But not on the direct command of their god the Christ Jesus. This is the point that you are purposefully ignoring and cannot accept.
- You have it backwards. The one doing the ignoring is you. "bring them here and slaughter them before me."

And as I have already said -   which is a parable about the judgment of god and only he will do the judging and punishing.  And I have also readily agreed, that this all seems very contradictory to other verses in the NT but such in the nature of the jumbled ambiguous mess that is New Testament. 

 Is it correct that to truly understand the Quran in context one has to learn it in Arabic?
- Absolutely.
 And this is exactly what I thought you would say. You are no different from the Christians that spout the same bullshite that one needs to understand the New Testament in its ancient language every time they too find themselves stuck for apologetic excuses. They are far too stupid to realise that every time they spout this shite that they render all bibles written in English, pointless and totally unreliable.

You are no different from they.

 Does every one of the 1.8  billion adherents to Islam all speak Arabic?

Quran 51 - You, who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

- Yes, taking Christians or Jews as allies against Muslims is treason.

Does it say "against MUSLIMS".  Or does it mean simply not believing in  Allah and his self appointed prophet,  as most of the vile quranic verses all seem to be about.




So far you have no provided a quote from the Quran which sanctions killing other than in self-defense & to establish peace. 

You are entitled to your opinion.  What were the Muslims defending when they invaded Spain? Or the Indian sub continent?

  You are simply full of shite Yassine, but no different to the Christian that wants us to believe the  god of the NT loves us when bible shows the clear opposite.  This is  what comes of adopting a god from a time and culture they knew nothing about.

 I think I am done here. We have gone full circle. 






#95
Yassine
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@Stephen
And as I have already said -   which is a parable about the judgment of god and only he will do the judging and punishing. 
- You mean Jesus (pbuh). What is the point of portraying Jesus as a pacifist who would rather see the oppressed humiliated & the oppressor forgiven, just to portray him, as the same time, as a judge raining down merciless divine justice?! 

And I have also readily agreed, that this all seems very contradictory to other verses in the NT but such in the nature of the jumbled ambiguous mess that is New Testament. 
- Why do you defend it then?

 And this is exactly what I thought you would say. You are no different from the Christians that spout the same bullshite that one needs to understand the New Testament in its ancient language every time they too find themselves stuck for apologetic excuses. They are far too stupid to realise that every time they spout this shite that they render all bibles written in English, pointless and totally unreliable.
- That's not entirely true. For the average person, a translated Bible is enough. For a scholar, evidently it isn't. You can never properly study a literary, scientific or legal document in other than its original language. Translations do not have the authority of the original text. A French translation of the US Constitution can never possess ultimate authority.

You are no different from they.
- False. In contrast to the Quran, preserved in its original language, the Bible did not reach us in the languages of Moses or Jesus or the prophets (pbuh). We don't even know what the original text would've possibly looked like.

Does every one of the 1.8  billion adherents to Islam all speak Arabic?
- You don't have to know Arabic to be Muslim & practice the faith, but you do have to know *Classical* Arabic & a bunch of other things to have an authoritative opinion on the scripture. In this respect, there is no difference between Arabs & non-Arabs when it comes to Classical Arabic. It's very simple, one has to have the given background of the Prophet's companions to understand the Quran exactly how it was intended to be understood. That is, one has to know what they (the companions) knew: Classical Arabic (their language), the prophetic biography (to know the proper context of each verse), the hadith tradition (to know how the Prophet (pbuh) himself interpreted the Quran)...etc.

Does it say "against MUSLIMS".  Or does it mean simply not believing in  Allah and his self appointed prophet,
- Since you keep bringing this up, let's put it to rest. Yes it does, in context. The next verse reads: "So you see those in whose hearts is disease [i.e., hypocrisy] hastening into [association with] them, saying, "We are afraid a misfortune may strike us." 52 about the relationship of the Munafiqeen (hypocrites) who showed allegiance to Banu Nadir when they conspired to assassinate the Prophet (pbuh), which shocked the Muslims, because they thought these hypocrites (led by Ibn Abi Salul) were on their side: "And those who believe will say "Are these [they hypocrites] the ones who swore by Allah their strongest oaths that indeed they were with you?" Their deeds have become worthless" 53. Which is why (6:8) it says, "Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just". Specifying that the prohibition of allegiance extends only to those hostile against Muslims.

- More importantly, the Prophet (pbuh) himself had Jewish & Christian wives, Jewish & Christian in-laws, Jewish & Christian allies. His neighbor was a Jew he used to visit often. He had an alliance with more than 23 Jewish tribe & few Christian tribes, & even the Christian Copts of Egypt & of Abyssinia. The whole premise is nonsense. If the verse meant all Christians, then the Prophet (pbuh) himself would be the first accused.

  as most of the vile quranic verses all seem to be about.
- No such thing. However, ironically, as it is with everything else, what Christians think is in our scripture is actually in theirs, unfortunately they do not know their scripture:
"Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work." (2 John 9-11)

You are entitled to your opinion.
- Fact*, which I have already established. Essentially, your trick is quoting the part of the verse which says "kill them" & ignore the parts which say who "them" are & why, that is, the transgressors & for self-defense to establish peace. Bring me a verse in the Quran that calls for killing without just cause *in* context, or an action of the Prophet (pbuh) without just cause.

What were the Muslims defending when they invaded Spain?
- They were defending their allies. The Muslims went into Spain on the behest of their allies the Lord of Seville & the Count of Ceuta Julian, whose daughter was raped by the Visigoth king, in order to depose the tyrant king.

Or the Indian sub continent?
- The Muslims did not invade India even three & half centuries after the initial conquest, because their initial beef was with the Persians not the Indians. They left them alone as long as they were left alone. That is, until the Indians decided to invade Muslims around the year 1000, when the Indian king Jayapala invaded the Muslim's capital Ghazni, after which the Muslims retaliated & conquered his country.

You are simply full of shite Yassine,
- Pot calls kettle black...

but no different to the Christian that wants us to believe the  god of the NT loves us when bible shows the clear opposite.  This is  what comes of adopting a god from a time and culture they knew nothing about.
- I agree, Christians have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to twist the words of their books.

 I think I am done here. We have gone full circle. 
- Do you ever admit it to yourself when you see truth?
#96
Stephen
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@Yassine
but no different to the Christian that wants us to believe the  god of the NT loves us when bible shows the clear opposite.  This is  what comes of adopting a god from a time and culture they knew nothing about.
- I agree, Christians have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to twist the words of their books.
Or just ignore the written facts,  just as you do. 




 I think I am done here. We have gone full circle. 
- Do you ever admit it to yourself when you see truth?
  You keep forgetting that I do not have a dog in the fight where religious bullshite is concerned.


#97
Yassine
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@Stephen
Or just ignore the written facts,  just as I* do. 
- Fixed. You're welcome.

  You keep forgetting that I do not have a dog in the fight where religious bullshite is concerned.
- You actions don't follow...

#98
Tradesecret
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@Yassine
lol! At you. You do realise I don’t live in America. 

Confessions??? The first step to reconciliation with God begins with confessions. The Muslim mind can’t even conceive of the difference between right and wrong, let alone acknowledge they might have done the wrong thing. Christians have done lots of evil in history. Hence why they have attempted to own it and confess their wrongs and try to change. Muslims are still living in the past because they have no real understanding of vision and restoration. 

Until the Muslim religion also owns its own past they will forever only ever see the gun as the means of reconciliation. Like the left wing socialist the muslim only sees the destination and not the journey. 

So Yasmine come and taste that the Lord is Good. Confess your sins and turn to Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of the same and he will direct your steps on the path to righteousness.  And then you too can experience real peace between God and man in this life right here and now. 
#99
Yassine
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@Tradesecret
lol! At you. You do realise I don’t live in America. 
- Care to share?

Confessions??? The first step to reconciliation with God begins with confessions. The Christian mind can’t even conceive of the difference between right and wrong, let alone acknowledge they might have done the wrong thing.
- Fixed*. You're welcome.

Christians have done lots of evil in history. Hence why they have attempted to own it and confess their wrongs and try to change.
- By doing even more evil. 

Muslims are still living in the past because they have no real understanding of vision and restoration. 
- We face God alone.

Until the Muslim religion also owns its own past they will forever only ever see the gun as the means of reconciliation. Like the left wing socialist the muslim only sees the destination and not the journey. 
- You're conflating your religion's past with mine's. Since I'm trying debates now, we could have a debate on that, & you can defend your position. What say you?

So Yasmine come and taste that the Lord is Good.
- Who dat?

Confess your sins and turn to Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of the same and he will direct your steps on the path to righteousness.  And then you too can experience real peace between God and man in this life right here and now. 
- I ask forgiveness of who Jesus (pbuh) asked forgiveness of, Allah, the One God.