Poll on Moderation

Author: Tyrone

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Vader
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@Tyrone
I have nothing against Bsh. Until he does something that is personally to me that is a "liberal approach" where he is controlling the parts of the site where it shouldn't be controlled, I am in favor of Bsh

Tyrone
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@Ramshutu
You’re not “advocating for a replacement mod”, your openly and publically attempting to undermine both the administration and moderation on d a website you give no financial or active time support to because you don’t like what one of the moderators did and think that the entire world not revolving around you and your opinion means the sky is falling.

Publically bombarding the forums like this is histrionic idiocy. If you want to deal with moderation issues, there are other more appropriate and better ways of getting your point across other than throwing public temper tantrums.

All I did in this thread was attempt to gauge whether or not there's public support for replacing Bsh1 as moderator. Upon realizing that there isn't much public support for that, I changed my approach and am now taking steps to see if I can influence Bsh1 to voluntarily change his moderation style. I've done all of this in a totally calm, level-headed, and professional manner (except in my responses to assholes like you and RM).

You accuse me of being hysterical, but you're the one who's blowing everything out of proportion. You're the one lobbing insults over absolutely nothing.
McSloth
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@Tyrone
Gotta side with Bsh on this, I've yet to see him do anything that would be worthy of him being removed as a moderator. 
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@Tyrone
Yeah I wish there were separate categories for strictness and favor of bish. I'd qualify as less strict, pro bish.

But when I told him so yesterday and offered some ideas for change, he approved them pretty much immediately. It's why I don't get the "bish never listens to feedback" complaint. When I made my suggestions I stuck to policy arguments without character attacks. That would be my advice.
No offense, but they weren't exactly groundbreaking changes. My experience in dealing with him thus far tells me that he's completely unwilling to substantially loosen up his moderation style. That being said, I've started talking to him privately, and he's given me some reason to hope that I'm mistaken. So I suppose we'll see where that goes.
Dunno why it would be an offense to me, it's just a fair observation. I thought it'd be best to start small and actionable and get a dialogue going. Though all of my points were addressing things that were heatedly criticized in the past. I was expecting larger suggestions to follow mine, but they never came, probably because we're suffering from a thread decentralization problem that hopefully will be rectified soon.
Tyrone
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@Castin
Yeah I wish there were separate categories for strictness and favor of bish. I'd qualify as less strict, pro bish.
That's what I'm trying to turn this into now. The substance of moderation policy is what's important here. The only reason I'm anti-Bsh1 at all is that I don't see him ever changing his views on the substance of moderation policy. 
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@Tyrone
Put me in much less strict... 
Vader
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@Tyrone
Put me in less strict
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@Buddamoose
Priorities are clearly out of whack, and that's enshrined in the letter of the law, which does in fact prohibit saying mean words, but not doing mean things. 

I disagree on the "not doing mean things." Harassment and doxxing are disallowed per the letter of the CoC. The issue I've had from the beginning is the sections on "hate speech" are only ever going to be subjective and lead to inconsistent applications. That inconsistency will cause disfavor and anger at the percieved injustice of it. 

Not to mention, people overwhelmingly dislike PC/SJW nonsense like "hate speech." This is why leftbook groups are lucky to hit 100+ members, and groups like AnCapistan, which legitimately leaves the rules at "don't doxx people like a fuckstick" are filled with members that numbers well into the thousands. Cause at the end of the day, people generally don't care if a group or site they're a part of has bigots. They'd rather be a part of the site where the soup du jour is memes about school shootings, blackface, or whatever troll topic is the flavor that day, then a place where language is policed. 

Cause at the end of the day, the best argument against distasteful and/or hateful ideologies, is to just let them speak. As a bonus it tends to be humurous to boot.
I agree with all of this, but I would still call the behaviour coming from Tyrone and RM high tier toxic and abusive. Whether or not it should be allowed is apparently not contentious -it is allowed. Banning "Tranny" but allowing "Fuck you bitch" is not sensibly consistent.  
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@Smithereens
Banning "Tranny" but allowing "Fuck you bitch" is not sensibly consistent

Honestly it should be the reverse (if either should be banned). One is actually intended as an insult.
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@Wylted
when did tranny become the new n word anyway? I just don't see the point of having such onerous moderation standards. debate sites THRIVE on controversy, even if that controversy is stupid e-drama. literally the entire point is to argue, about anything and everything
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@Wylted
Not just an insult, it could also be seen as a personal threat.
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@thett3
when did tranny become the new n word anyway

I started a blog about transhumanism years back, and I called myself some variation of the word trans, and I started to notice I was building a huge following. Half of my users referred to themselves as a tranny in the user name, and I think all of the users were confused about the blogs theme, but kept coming back to read more of it. I'm embarrassed to say it took me a long time before I figured out that most of my users thought I was transexual, and were showing my blog support based strictly on that alone. I think I ended the blog with about 200 users. I have been more involved with the trans community than BSH1 or anybody else un the site who is not transexual ever has. He honestly just makes him self look stupid by thinking any more than 1% of that population is offended by the word.
RationalMadman
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You guys don't worry, put me in charge and i'll sort this out.

Tranny should be moderated upon context and the speaker advised to only use the term trans, transgender or transsexual (the third here being least preferred by large margin).

'Fuck you bitch' is no-go.

n-word is context based. In rap battle or in pm, it will not be a no-go depending on context but in public forums and such it's a no-no. 
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@RationalMadman
Moderation should always be done with context, and not dictionary definitions.
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@Greyparrot
I don't care the context you use 'fuck you bitch' if it's any remote PM or forum type thing it's no. since this site lets rap battles become a grey area maybe only there.
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@Greyparrot
agreed overall, yes.
Tyrone
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LESS STRICT
  • Tyrone
  • Wylted
  • Drafterman
  • Imabench
  • TheHammer
  • 1Harderthanyouthink
  • Thett3
  • ResurgetExFavilla
  • Smithereens
  • Buddamoose
  • Goldtop
  • Castin
  • SupaDudz
  • Outplayz

SAME / MORE STRICT 
  • RationalMadman
  • YeshuaBought
  • Argent Tongue
  • Mopac
  • Swagnarok
  • Ramshutu
  • Vaarka 

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In terms of vote moderation, I agree with my placement. I think what gets lost in the discussion is we have Harvey Dent at the helm here when it comes to voting and forum moderation. If you took the average of the two, you'd might end up with something sensible.

In terms of forum moderation, I'd actually be in the "more strict" column.
Tyrone
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This thread is about forum moderation.


LESS STRICT
  • Tyrone
  • Wylted
  • Imabench
  • TheHammer
  • 1Harderthanyouthink
  • Thett3
  • ResurgetExFavilla
  • Smithereens
  • Buddamoose
  • Goldtop
  • Castin
  • SupaDudz
  • Outplayz

SAME / MORE STRICT 
  • RationalMadman
  • YeshuaBought
  • Argent Tongue
  • Mopac
  • Swagnarok
  • Ramshutu
  • Vaarka 
  • Drafterman

thett3
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the lesson that I hope bsh takes from this is that while he remains personally popular, his moderation style is not at all. it's been what, two months? and there is already significant pushback, even though he hasn't really done anything beyond the pale. he hasn't noticeably favored his friends unfairly, he hasnt abused his power in any way or blown up publicly at anyone, yet his modship is still unpopular (or at least controversial.) compare this to airmax who was pretty openly corrupt in certain ways and yet remained popular. this was because his laissez faire moderation style was well received by the average user 

in all likelihood bsh is going to remain the mod of this site for a long time so i hope he reflects on this. his views on free speech are EXTREMELY out of the mainstream for Americans and I think this colors his decisions which in turn causes the resentment. while my own views on the subject are to the other extreme it's fair to say that most people, and definitely most people who are attracted to a site for arguing, prefer a much more "rough and tumble" internet culture than bsh does. he really, really needs to take this into account. in both political viewpoints and temperament he is way outside the mainstream of DDO/DART, that doesnt mean he cant be a good mod but if he doesn't account for this he will not be.

in case anyone cares, i particularly dislike the deleting of posts/threads (which airmax did too.) Controversial topics are like an adrenaline shot to a debating website. on top of this, it just feels very orwellian that content can simply be deleted without a trace. if a user violates the rules, punish them but the content, unless grossly offensive or doxxy should remain (and no, saying "nigga" is nowhere near grossly offensive.)

RationalMadman
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@Tyrone
When you fail, keep altering the dynamic and at some point the shit you throw at the wall will stick.

Keep trying, you didn't ask those people about forum moderation. I know Castin, for a fact, enjoys getting bullies off this site just doesn't want to be the one to do it. Castin is more strict, you're putting words in her mouth.
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@thett3
There is actually a huge difference. Juggle told airmax 'don't worry, just ban those idiots'. Mike doesn't tell bsh1 the same thing, he cares. You are complimenting Max for things he didn't do at all.

Max was not well-liked, he was capable of banning those who didn't like him. From Me to Qopel to that guy mike or something who exposed him for being corrupt and having some arrangement with 2 Juggle mods posing as non-mods (may be our mike)  and Swagnarok here (bubbatheclown/vox_veritas etc) he banned outcasts when it suited him.

Bsh1 hasn't done this, the mercy he's shown ungrateful pricks is hilarious to me.
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@Tyrone
you never even added mcsloth to the 'same' list.


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@Tyrone
Smithereens says "I don't see an issue with Bsh1, I see an issue with the policy. It's ridiculous that this sort of behaviour that's been going on in this thread is allowed to stand," and you don't even admit that he is in support of same/more strict because he abstained from the old dynamic
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@RationalMadman
he was extremely popular. just because many users, including yourself, had issues with him doesn't mean the other 95% of us did. and i dont really disagree that max's moderation was personally corrupt in many ways. i know from personal experience that if you were one of his favorites you could get away with far more than a regular user could. the point i'm making is that bsh has been, so far, less corrupt that airmax was and is still far less popular
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@thett3
95% is pulled out of your ass, he wasn't popular at all he ensured the popular liked him, this is a totally different concept to ensuring he himself is popular.
RationalMadman
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LESS STRICT
  • Tyrone
  • Wylted
  • Imabench
  • TheHammer
  • 1Harderthanyouthink
  • Thett3
  • ResurgetExFavilla
  • Buddamoose
  • Goldtop
  • SupaDudz
  • Outplayz

SAME / MORE STRICT 
  • RationalMadman
  • YeshuaBought
  • Argent_Tongue
  • Mopac
  • Swagnarok
  • Ramshutu
  • Vaarka 
  • Drafterman
  • Castin
  • Smithereens
  • McSloth


thett3
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bumping this to the new page...

the lesson that I hope bsh takes from this is that while he remains personally popular, his moderation style is not at all. it's been what, two months? and there is already significant pushback, even though he hasn't really done anything beyond the pale. he hasn't noticeably favored his friends unfairly, he hasnt abused his power in any way or blown up publicly at anyone, yet his modship is still unpopular (or at least controversial.) compare this to airmax who was pretty openly corrupt in certain ways and yet remained popular. this was because his laissez faire moderation style was well received by the average user 

in all likelihood bsh is going to remain the mod of this site for a long time so i hope he reflects on this. his views on free speech are EXTREMELY out of the mainstream for Americans and I think this colors his decisions which in turn causes the resentment. while my own views on the subject are to the other extreme it's fair to say that most people, and definitely most people who are attracted to a site for arguing, prefer a much more "rough and tumble" internet culture than bsh does. he really, really needs to take this into account. in both political viewpoints and temperament he is way outside the mainstream of DDO/DART, that doesnt mean he cant be a good mod but if he doesn't account for this he will not be.

in case anyone cares, i particularly dislike the deleting of posts/threads (which airmax did too.) Controversial topics are like an adrenaline shot to a debating website. on top of this, it just feels very orwellian that content can simply be deleted without a trace. if a user violates the rules, punish them but the content, unless grossly offensive or doxxy should remain (and no, saying "nigga" is nowhere near grossly offensive.)

RationalMadman
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@thett3
There is actually a huge difference. Juggle told airmax 'don't worry, just ban those idiots'. Mike doesn't tell bsh1 the same thing, he cares. You are complimenting Max for things he didn't do at all.

Max was not well-liked, he was capable of banning those who didn't like him. From Me to Qopel to that guy mike or something who exposed him for being corrupt and having some arrangement with 2 Juggle mods posing as non-mods (may be our mike)  and Swagnarok here (bubbatheclown/vox_veritas etc) he banned outcasts when it suited him.

Bsh1 hasn't done this, the mercy he's shown ungrateful pricks is hilarious to me.
- RM
he was extremely popular. just because many users, including yourself, had issues with him doesn't mean the other 95% of us did. and i dont really disagree that max's moderation was personally corrupt in many ways. i know from personal experience that if you were one of his favorites you could get away with far more than a regular user could. the point i'm making is that bsh has been, so far, less corrupt that airmax was and is still far less popular
- thett3
95% is pulled out of your ass, he wasn't popular at all he ensured the popular liked him, this is a totally different concept to ensuring he himself is popular.
- RM
Tyrone
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Smithereens explicitly said that he wouldn't support intervening in our flamewar. All he said was that it makes no sense to leave our flamewar up while deleting posts simply for containing the word "tranny" or "nigga" in them.

Castin, too, explicitly said she's in favor of more lax moderation overall. You're the one putting words in her mouth.

Reading comprehension. It comes in handy.

But yes, I did forget McSloth. Sorry about that.


LESS STRICT
  • Tyrone
  • Wylted
  • Imabench
  • TheHammer
  • 1Harderthanyouthink
  • Thett3
  • ResurgetExFavilla
  • Buddamoose
  • Goldtop
  • SupaDudz
  • Outplayz
  • Castin
  • Smithereens

SAME / MORE STRICT 
  • RationalMadman
  • YeshuaBought
  • Argent_Tongue
  • Mopac
  • Swagnarok
  • Ramshutu
  • Vaarka
  • Drafterman
  • McSloth