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@drlebronski
Ah yes, the sign up to view, a bane to many sources I 'might have used in arguments.
It's not an argument I'm invested in enough to go find my passwords notebook.
Should reparations be provided for slavery?
Posts
Total:
148
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@drlebronski
Infrastructure that I use getting built is different from giving money to a person I'm not responsible for.
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@Sum1hugme
Your not just giving money to people your fixing poor areas so that the people who live there can become successful. what you said can Also come across as little selfish
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@Sum1hugme
"The American System also called for a robust program of internal improvements, projects that today we know as infrastructure. Early on, Calhoun like Clay believed that road and canal construction would tie the sections together economically through transportation links that facilitated commerce and encouraged interdependence. Aside from the benefits to the economy, a salubrious result from mutual economic interests would be the blunting of sharp sectional disagreements over slavery. It was the hope that after a time disunion would be too costly for even the most disgruntled sectionalist to consider. Yet Calhoun gradually gravitated to a localism that caviled over having the government using money for projects that benefitted only one section or even a particular state. More than that practical objection, however, his opposition to the practice would inform his most telling insights in political philosophy."
I suppose one could make the argument that people 'are infrastructure, but many people support legal and 'illegal immigration, on the grounds that 'somebody needs to exist who's poor, to do the jobs richer folk won't.
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@drlebronski
It's not selfish to want to keep the money that I earned and invest the way I want. It's selfish for anyone to think that they're entitled to the products of my labor. You haven't explained why I should have to pay so the government can "fix" other people's communities, whatever that means. I can give that money to charities I approve of or buy from local downtown businesses. People in poor areas can be successful if they work hard and budget their money.
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@Lemming
Given the state of the American welfare system, immigration is only good for America economically anymore if it's illegal. Because once immigrants are legal they qualify for welfare programs, But if they stay illegal they have to work and support the economy.
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@Sum1hugme
Interesting thought, I hadn't considered.
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@drlebronski
please go back to the old avi, it was perfect
This debate has already been had before, but I am going to state it again.
The idea of reparations is severely flawed and the system it presents to pay the reparations. Who would pay reparations? The tax payers? Does that encompass the other races who were discriminated against in that time period? Or is it referring to only white people? If so, that is not fair to people who are first generation immigrants. My dad was born in Greece and my mom was born in America; but her older brother was born in Greece. Is it fair to those families who had nothing to do with western slavery be taxed for reparations?
The best thing you can do for reparation is to know which local business are black owned and tried to support them. Small business have taken a huge loss and by supporting them, you will undoubtedly help them
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@Double_R
Good post, thanks. I don't think we really disagree on much, but differ on rhetoric
What I think is largely overlooked by the political right is that the circumstances we are born into has a big impact on our ability to make good decisions.
Definitely true. For some of the left I think there's a denial of bad decision making in general. One thing that really grosses me out about the left and why I object to so much of the rhetoric is that they totally remove agency from people. For every person born and raised in poverty who becomes a criminal there are many more who do not. There is always a choice. But yeah to go back to the right they do tend to disregard this more than they should. It's very difficult to even put into words what an advantage a good upbringing is, let alone actual financial assistance like paid for college and such. Don't think people should be ashamed for helping their kids at all, in fact I think they have an obligation to do it, but it's a gigantic leg up. While I don't think committing crimes or not raising your kids or whatever is ever excusable, it's way less excusable for people who have had every advantage in life
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@Vader
Tax dollars will be used regardless of the payers skin color. I think the people in poor neighborhoods would be thankful their money is going into fixing where they live. Again your taxes going to something else that would help countless people isnt going to harm you. Its not punishment when they use it for anything else; is it?
Also fixing the poor neighborhoods would help everyone who there. If you grow up in a poor neighborhood with bad schools and crime around your chances of becoming a criminal are significantly higher.
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@drlebronski
Tax dollars will be used regardless of the payers skin color. - drlebronski
So why is the topic named, Should reparations be provided for slavery?
If it's just about improving the livelihood of the lower class in America?
Something we 'already do to degrees, I assume?
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@Lemming
If we are fixing the majority of poor areas with low school funds where mainly black people live that's my definition of reparations. That would also benefit all poor people. But yea i guess your right
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@drlebronski
I think there'd be poor of 'every race, being helped, if you just focused on helping the poor.
I also just dislike socialism, and big government.
In my eyes, it's a copout in America, to tell government, infringe my rights, take my money and structure the country as 'you see fit.
If people 'meant to help the poor in America, they are not incapable of founding charities, of working as Greenpeace does but 'in America, building houses, roads, infrastructure.
People are not incapable of forming organizations, in which they are able to study to achieve a GED, or job skills.
Are not incapable of devoting their time to others.
Of founding 'movements and organizations.
But perhaps I overestimate people.
And their decision to say, government 'grow, fix all our problems, is the only solution.
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@Lemming
"
"In my eyes, it's a copout in America, to tell government, infringe my rights, take my money and structure the country as 'you see fit."
Its not infringing anyone's rights its just giving everyone an opportunity.
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@drlebronski
People who are anti-big government, would see the issue.
I 'think.
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@thett3
For some of the left I think there's a denial of bad decision making in general. One thing that really grosses me out about the left and why I object to so much of the rhetoric is that they totally remove agency from people.
Agreed. I think we both recognize the flaws of each side of the spectrum but we differ on which side’s flaws should be recognized first. The way I see it, the legacy of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. are still with us and it was wrong, full stop. I get that many of the people who are living with the impacts could find much better ways to go about than embracing full scale victimhood, but their circumstances are still the result of being wronged.
Something that always stuck with me from a customer service class years ago… Question: when does an explanation turn into an excuse? Answer: when you fail to apologize.
It’s basic human nature, when your plight is explained to someone else and they can’t even pretend to be empathetic about it before launching into defense mode, the reasonable impression you are left with is that they just don’t care. And if they don’t care about your plight then the explanation does not come off as genuine, or just feels like post hoc rationalization.
I feel like this sums up what’s going on in America right now. Black people are literally saying “hey, what you did to us was fucked up” and the political right not only vilifies them for it but passes laws to ensure the subject is never taught in schools. It seems like we could never resolve these differences but I really don’t think it’s that difficult. If the political right would at least pretend to care about our history and what impacts it has had on the African American community, and recognize why the black community faces the challenges it does, that alone would do more to ease racial tensions in this country than reparations ever could. Of course it wouldn’t end there, but it would be a whole different climate than what we have now.
surprised no one has made the Italian or Irishman argument.
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@Double_R
I have mainly unhelpful negative things to say, to post #137, but I'll not say them, because again, they're unhelpful negative things to say.
Not saying that 'your post was unhelpful or negative, just that my response to it was.
So instead I'll try to be more constructive to myself in learning,
"passes laws to ensure the subject is never taught in schools." - Double_R
What law's in particular?
Not saying that they're 'aren't, but that I don't always pay attention to the news.
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@Lemming
If you have something to say then say it. I’m sure you can find a way to phrase your critiques in a constructive manner, that’s kind of the point of this site.
I’m talking about the movement across the country to ban critical race theory. That really wasn’t the point though. I was pointing to the national freak out, something black people are used to seeing every time things start to go their way on anything.
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@Double_R
Oh I wrote down what I was going to say, but didn't bother saving the wordpad, so when I restarted my computer because of updates, my unconstructive criticism was gone. Probably for the best.
A day has passed, and I feel no annoyance now, least not enough to care about thinking about it again.
How do you define CRT, or is there some reference you use to define it?
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@Lemming
CRT is a critical racists theory.
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@Lemming
“the basic tenets of CRT include that racism and disparate racial outcomes are the result of complex, changing and often subtle social and institutional dynamics rather than explicit and intentional prejudices on the part of individuals”
Mostly this.
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@Double_R
Helps me a bit, to see how you define it.
Though I'd imagine that exists in 'any modern day society.
If I go to China, I should complain about Asian privilege, or I go the the Congo, I ought complain about Black privilege?
Race 'does have a 'bit of realism, 'I think, though I refer to it as a bit hazy myself.
It just becomes fuzzier, the wider a net one throws.
Culture, roots, tradition, territory, blood, matter to some people.
Though if you go with the out of Africa theory, we've all roots together there.
The Irish, Celts, Scots, Brits, seemed to find enough difference among themselves, to consider each other different races.
And they 'were in a fashion, the different tribes being more connected with their 'own villages, genetically, culturally, than the 'other nearby villages.
Other than breed out race to the point it's seen the same as hair or eye color, what's the solution?
Though people are 'still going to be effected in society by what they are.
Tall people becoming CEOs, redheads being considered fiery.
. . .
Or if we discover a greater enemy humanity might unite against genetically, culturally, like space aliens.
Personally, I prefer the view, that if a society is intentioned not to prejudice on race.
All it 'can do, is be colorblind, and focus on merit.
Though I suppose, having Judges for example, have training/classes on the existence of unconscious bias, 'might help to alleviate drlebronskis concerns, about unequal sentencing of individuals, due to their skin or sex.
'Without it being seen as favoring one group above another, as some people complain about colleges or businesses hiring people for the group they belong to, rather than merit.
@Anyone
What do school lessons (If Any) on CRT, 'literally say?
And I mean quotes, or textbooks?
Or what do some advocates of CRT, 'want schools to say?
Or in college, what does the class literally say?
@NoOneInParticular
(Edit Addon)
And really, there's going to be some groups that are 'always expected to be unpopular, or have difficulty, on account of 'what they are.
'Not talking about blacks being unpopular or having difficulty on account of what they are. In this Edit Addon.
But the 'idea of CRT, seems to be, to push equal treatment, for a 'different group, never mind that they are different.
The logic 'behind the idea, the 'push behind it, can/could logically be applied to other groups.
Rambling.
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@Lemming
I think its rarely taught in schools. But from what i know sometimes its taught in law school.
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@drlebronski
I've heard it's taught in college, for some classes. Though in a form 'likely different than shown by agitators against it.
I've not heard it's taught in young kid public school.
I've heard people complain, anti CRT legislators are, getting riled over nothing.
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@Lemming
If I go to China, I should complain about Asian privilege, or I go the the Congo, I ought complain about Black privilege?
I don’t know enough the history of others countries regarding race to comment, I don’t see what it has to do with this though. Of in another country, one ethnic group was enslaved, then segregated, then redlined, etc. I would take the same positions I do here.
But the 'idea of CRT, seems to be, to push equal treatment, for a 'different group, never mind that they are different.
All people are different. We all have different skills, different physical characteristics, different mental abilities, etc. That has nothing to do with how we should be treated. Being treated equally does not mean you end up in the same place.
The idea behind CRT is that race is the central ordering conflict in our society. It’s more backwards looking rather than forward, focusing on how we got here. The question of what we do about it is another conversation. This is why all the national backlash against it is so absurd, the people criticizing it the loudest have no idea what it is.
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@Double_R
Hm, Well, your replies are something for me to think about.