Thoughts on gun control?

AR 15s protect you from gangs

Gang violence would be less prominent if guns were banned.

AR 15s protect you from gangs

Gang violence would be less prominent if guns were banned.

This struck me as funny and the first thing that popped into my head was...the fight scene in 'The Outsiders.' No guns. Still a gang. Chains. Knives. Pipes. Fists. Still all "weapons" used for violence. 

Guns are merely a tool, the same as any other "tool" that can be (and has been) used for violent intent against another person. So no, take away guns they will just find another usefully effective "tool" to enact their 'gang' violence. 

Guns are merely a tool but guns can kill people far more effectively than things like knives. Unless someone is very proficient at knife throwing and has a large supply of knives, they aren't gonna be able to kill more than one person every ten seconds (unless they're just standing there and tightly packed together). On the other hand, assault rifles (and guns in general to a lesser extent) can kill one person every other second, more if the people are tightly packed together. Why do we ban bombs? They are "merely" tools, but they are far more effective at killing than a knife. The same goes for guns.

"...the recent FBI data revealed five times as many deaths are caused by knives than guns according to a recent Breitbart News article."

FBI: Knives Are Five Times Deadlier Than Guns - Firearms News

Knife vs Handgun - Reality Check 

FBI UCR Data shows more people die every single year by "hands, fists and feet" than they do by "rifle" of ANY kind. 

Comparing a "bomb" to a "gun" is a false equivalency fallacy.

IF there is a way for a government to enact a mandatory buyback of assault rifles and be confident they got most of the assault rifles of their country, I would support an assault rifles ban.

Gang violence would be less prominent if guns were banned.

Are you saying you believe undocumented immigrants should fight back against ICE tyranny with guns?

For instance, it has been found that gun violence is more prominent in less economically privileged counties: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abstract/2786452. POCs are also twice as likely to die from gun violence, and 14 times more likely to be wounded: https://www.bradyunited.org/issue/gun-violence-is-a-racial-justice-issue

What is it defining as a "mass shooting death"?

https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls

The alternative that allows citizens to still bear arms in this instance, is to give weapons to those wanting to defend themselves in the event of a war.

That’s too authoritarian.  The only reason a government wants to take your guns is because they want to do something to you you would shoot them for.  The taliban wanted to enact tyranny in their country, so they took people’s guns.  Guns make us free.  The tree of liberty from time to time must be watered with the blood of tyrants.

Gangs don’t follow the law.  Criminals will always have guns.  The only people gun laws effect are law abiding citizens (who need protection from criminals and the government).

Yes.  The tree of liberty from time to time must be watered with the blood of tyrants.  When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.  When the government fear the people, there is liberty.

Homicide is rare when the civilian does it and common when the governor does it.

I trust we the people to defend themselves from danger over a government known for tyranny and war.

The argument that guns are necessary to fight a tyrannical government is outdated and nonsense, contradicted by the very fact that Americans were given guns by the French to fight the British. Not only that, but the current war in Ukraine and the wars in the Middle East show you get guns anyway during war times.

Banning AR 15s and background checks don’t reduce the homicide rate significantly (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/11yflOMimI67xOmbzx3E_f6x0MlweEgjkwUpmJ8Ww8Ug/htmlview#gid=0)

There can at any time be a war between American civilians and foreign countries or even our own government.  America is freest when the government is most scared of enacting tyranny.  Canada has hard vaccine mandates that cause lots of people to be unemployed.  Europe has incredibly high income and VATs that make most people there lower middle class.  A government that cares about liberty would privatize lots of things to make an unequal blessing in their country, rather than an equally shared misery.  America’s commitment to small government and liberty is why more people (especially from countries that lack liberty) want to move to America than any other country.  It’s why more people move to red states than blue states.

The argument that guns are necessary to fight a tyrannical government is outdated and nonsense, contradicted by the very fact that Americans were given guns by the French to fight the British. Not only that, but the current war in Ukraine and the wars in the Middle East show you get guns anyway during war times.

Banning AR 15s and background checks don’t reduce the homicide rate significantly

There can at any time be a war between American civilians and foreign countries or even our own government.  America is freest when the government is most scared of enacting tyranny.  Canada has hard vaccine mandates that cause lots of people to be unemployed.  Europe has incredibly high income and VATs that make most people there lower middle class.  A government that cares about liberty would privatize lots of things to make an unequal blessing in their country, rather than an equally shared misery.  America’s commitment to small government and liberty is why more people (especially from countries that lack liberty) want to move to America than any other country.  It’s why more people move to red states than blue states.

-->@TWS1405

"...the recent FBI data revealed five times as many deaths are caused by knives than guns according to a recent Breitbart News article."

FBI: Knives Are Five Times Deadlier Than Guns - Firearms News

Knife vs Handgun - Reality Check 

FBI UCR Data shows more people die every single year by "hands, fists and feet" than they do by "rifle" of ANY kind. 

guns are harder to get access to than knives and fists. It's not about how many people die from guns in total, it's about how much more effective guns are at killing a person than knives. Sure, a knife can kill a person at close range, but a gun can kill a person from a hundred feet away, and then quickly aim at the next person, without having to chase them down.

Comparing a "bomb" to a "gun" is a false equivalency fallacy.

I'm not saying bombs and guns are the same thing. What I AM saying is that guns are more effective at killing people than knives. I'm providing an example - in this case bombs - in which a weapon isn't legal because it is more effective at killing people than knives. If we ban guns, people will find other ways to kill people, but not as effectively as they would with guns.

Added08.05.22 01:20AM

-->@TWS1405

I have no idea where you got the "stats" that more people die in America from fist fights than shootings. Please cite a source. How many people kill themselves with their own fists? And how many people kill themselves with guns that wouldn't have died without access to firearms?

It's such a shame that hundreds of thousands of Americans kill themselves with guns every year.

It's such a shame you're always scared around cops because they holster guns.

It's a damn shame that your children have to do drills on how to evacuate in case of a deranged shooter coming to their schools.

America has a massive cultural problem when it comes to guns, which only exist in America.

If a child cannot handle something responsibility you take it away. Swiss people don't go around killing people with their guns, so there's no reason for there to be discussions on how to supress said guns, unlike America. If a child cannot use a real knife properly to cut their beef, you give them a plastic one.

owhere did I state that more people die from "fist fights than shootings." Strawman argument. 

In my comment I provided a link that included sources for the data affirming what I said. Here is another one. 

The primary source is the FBI UCR on homicides, not suicides. Red herring fallacy on that one. 

Same can be said by suffocation (hanging) and poison too. While guns make it easier, there are a multitude of ways people choose to take their own life. Take away access to one, there are plenty other ways that they will find. Stabbing or cutting. Jumping off a building or cliff. Drowning. What does suicide have to do with the basic argument over "gun control" measures?

No, we do not. The problem is a lack of personal responsibility, accountability and discipline when it comes to weapons. You know, all those things that were taught by fathers to their sons, or to young boys and men as a Cub/Boy/Eagle Scout. When you stop teaching these things, what we see today with the gun problems is a result of just that. Not to mention the added issue of mental health which compounds the problem 10 fold. 

A plastic knife can be just as deadly as a spoon when used effectively. 

Children today should not be around guns until such age they can demonstrate respect for the weapon and personal responsibility with it as well. 

Parents who buy guns (or help them) for their deranged child are also a part of the problem. 

When I went to high school, we drove trucks with rifles hanging in the back window. We didn't have school shootings. What changed? Liberals giving too much freedom and less personal responsibility upon the individual.

When I went to high school, we drove trucks with rifles hanging in the back window. We didn't have school shootings. What changed? Liberals giving too much freedom and less personal responsibility upon the individual.

->@TWS1405

You contradicted yourself about 3 times in this comment.

owhere did I state that more people die from "fist fights than shootings." Strawman argument. 

In my comment I provided a link that included sources for the data affirming what I said. Here is another one. 

The primary source is the FBI UCR on homicides, not suicides. Red herring fallacy on that one. 

Can you send me a primary source and not an article, please?

Same can be said by suffocation (hanging) and poison too. While guns make it easier, there are a multitude of ways people choose to take their own life. Take away access to one, there are plenty other ways that they will find. Stabbing or cutting. Jumping off a building or cliff. Drowning. What does suicide have to do with the basic argument over "gun control" measures?

How many of them wouldn't of done it without guns? so many of them would of not even tried to kill themselves in the first place if not for the efficiency of a gun.

No, we do not. The problem is a lack of personal responsibility, accountability and discipline when it comes to weapons. You know, all those things that were taught by fathers to their sons, or to young boys and men as a Cub/Boy/Eagle Scout. When you stop teaching these things, what we see today with the gun problems is a result of just that. Not to mention the added issue of mental health which compounds the problem 10 fold. 

So a cultural problem? why is it that Americans have a lack of personal accountability and discipline with guns while Swiss don't? genetics? evidently its culture.

A plastic knife can be just as deadly as a spoon when used effectively. 

Children today should not be around guns until such age they can demonstrate respect for the weapon and personal responsibility with it as well. 

Parents who buy guns (or help them) for their deranged child are also a part of the problem. 

You're correct. I can kill someone with a car, even a plastic bag. The big symmetry breaker between a gun and these utilities is what we would call, "primary usage" the intent, purpose, and function and goal of a gun is simply to murder. There is objective utility and societal viability for plastic bags and cars outside of murder weapons and enjoyment. Guns? not so much.

When I went to high school, we drove trucks with rifles hanging in the back window. We didn't have school shootings. What changed? Liberals giving too much freedom and less personal responsibility upon the individual.

It seems we agree then, that it isn't necessarily the gun which is the issue but the user. Yet Americas gun crazy culture is part of why the gun problem exists.

When I went to high school, we drove trucks with rifles hanging in the back window. We didn't have school shootings. What changed? Liberals giving too much freedom and less personal responsibility upon the individual.

90% if Americans are on edge around cops because they holster guns. When you get pulled over, its daunting enough even in Europe but in America its going to be  scarier because of guns.

A gun's primary purpose or usage is not "to murder." Americans use guns for the same reasons the Swedes do. Hunting. Sort Shooting. Collecting. And obviously self-defense. Criminals knowing someone is armed won't criminalize them. Too risky. Gun free zones are a free for all. 

-->@TWS1405

My friend, everything is either dictated by your environment or your genetics. If people are not responsible with guns because of genetics its because of the environment (culture).

I've looked at the source in the article, yet i cant seem to find the information at all on the site.

A gun's primary purpose or usage is not "to murder." Americans use guns for the same reasons the Swedes do. Hunting. Sort Shooting. Collecting. And obviously self-defense. Criminals knowing someone is armed won't criminalize them. Too risky. Gun free zones are a free for all. 

Hunting is murdering animals. Regardless, the primary intent of the gun and its sole purpose is some form of killing.

It is a lack of culture due to a lack of personal responsibility, accountability, discipline, respect and mental illness. 

Not my problem if you cannot find the data provided by the FBI through their website. The authors of the article did. Or perhaps it is a measure of laziness since you responded awfully quickly.

FBI — Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

Animals are not murdered. They are killed. Murder is a term relegated to human beings murdering one another. 

Collecting guns has nothing to do with "some form of killing."

Sport shooting has nothing to do with "some form of killing."

Competition shooting has nothing to do with "some form of killing."

Self-defense doesn't always result in killing and has more to do with a show of force in order to deter from killing.

So, no. A weapons "sole purpose" is not "some form of killing."

-->@TWS1405

It is a lack of culture due to a lack of personal responsibility, accountability, discipline, respect and mental illness. 

Where does mental illness come from? you're using circular reasoning. We're agreeing, you're just too stubborn to admit it.

Not my problem if you cannot find the data provided by the FBI through their website. The authors of the article did. Or perhaps it is a measure of laziness since you responded awfully quickly.

FBI — Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

Looking at the table. It seems like the article was lying. 600 people died by fist, legs etc. In the year 2020 while 3,000 did by guns. Its actually the same trend all across the board, in all years.

Animals are not murdered. They are killed. Murder is a term relegated to human beings murdering one another. 

Collecting guns has nothing to do with "some form of killing."

Sport shooting has nothing to do with "some form of killing."

Competition shooting has nothing to do with "some form of killing."

Self-defense doesn't always result in killing and has more to do with a show of force in order to deter from killing.

So, no. A weapons "sole purpose" is not "some form of killing."

It doesn't change anything to what i said. Killing is the primary usage of guns then, it changes nothing to the original comment. Guns were also intended for war, with humans. The gun wasn't created to fight animals but man.

Would you like to do an actual debate on this?

Norway took people's guns for safety...was Norway wanting to do something they would be shot for?

Are you referring to police killing innocent people, such as George Floyd?

I'm curious, do you agree with the people who stormed the capital on January 6th?

This is measuring homicide rate, not gun violence statistics. Additionally, this only shows the next 5 years when significant legislation like that often takes longer to really take effect.

The argument that guns are necessary to fight a tyrannical government is outdated and nonsense, contradicted by the very fact that Americans were given guns by the French to fight the British. Not only that, but the current war in Ukraine and the wars in the Middle East show you get guns anyway during war times.

 I don't find it too relevant if AR-15's don't kill that many people. When they are used they kill the most people. If we look to the worst shootings in Americas history almost all of them are using rifles.

In an ideal world, Americans should not have guns, in my personal opinion.

Almost all the worst mass shootings in American history were with AR-15's. It's only a matter of time before others who want to wreck maximum havoc recognise this.

This has little to do with your government, but more so geography.

People want to move to America simply because the economy is good.

The UK would have an economy as large as the US's if it were the same size, as with most European nations.

if you're poor in America its worse than being poor in Germany, Scandinavia or the UK simply due to all the robust social services and welfare systems in these nations (something you probably vehemently detest)

"Then we would get robbed a lot.  Criminals will have guns and you can’t disarm criminals unless they are in jail (which they can avoid since government police suck)."

AR 15s were legalized in 2004 and the mass shooting rate started to skyrocket in 2012.  The two aren’t connected.

People are fleeing CA which has some of the best geography in the world.

The economy is good because of right wing economic policies.

The per capita income of the UK is 75% that of America’s.

The poor need to get better paying jobs to get more money.  They also should spend less.  I make minimum wage and I have $24,000 in assets because I invest and don’t spend.  If you can’t afford a home, live with your parents if you can.  It’s what I do.  I’m 20.  If your above 25, you should have a job that pays more than minimum wage.

If you care so much about poor people, your free to adopt them; that’s your right.  Jus don’t force me to pay for it

You're just assuming people will steal more without guns.

i was point out that when they are used they cause the most deaths.

I was talking about the reason why America as a whole is so economically powerful. Its simply geography. America has statically the most arable and best land on the planet.

America has one of the largest income disparities in the developed world.

Europeans are also taxed a lot more than Americans (in most nations) this is also in large part why Europeans have more robust social programs and developed public transport systems etc.

America has decent policy, but its mostly about the geography as to why its so economically and culturally powerful.

There's such thing as taking personal responsibility and at the same time creating systemic changes to help people make better personal choices. Some people aren't as smart or educated as you, who made need more of a push through positive systemic changes.

Nothing wrong with that.  What matters is per capita wealth.  If one person has $1 million and another person has $5 million, that’s better than if they both have $20.  But the ladder situation has less income disparities.  What matters is per capita income.

If every single democrat adopted a homeless person, sponsored a kid in poverty, and put solar panels on their roof, they would be able to end a lot of the problems they bitch about.

Western EU has better geography than America; less warm summers and more warm winters.  But people still move to America.

 taxes in the EU are insane.  No wonder people perfer the states to the EU.  If your a European immigrant to America, just remember your a refugee and not a missionary.

Americas per capita wealth is high because of the amount of extremely rich people.

If the money is all concentrated in 1% of peoples hands this means some people are not going to be able to afford basic things.

This is bad in Europe but even more so in America.

In Europe we do just fine with our per capita wealth.

we see it as worth the increased tax burden.

That still doesn't deny the fact that geography is literally the only thing setting America apart from Europe.

Taxes in the EU are perfectly fine if you're willing to sacrifice some of your wealth for your common man,

Its evident most people in the EU don't dislike this system, as the happiest nations in Europe seem to have rather high taxes

When you're poor in America, its worse than being poor in the EU. When you're rich in America, its better than being rich in the EU. Its that simple.

what's with the refugee comment?  Many Americans preach the same stuff. you hold so much pride in your nation to the point you degrade your fellow humans simply for being born in a different nation

Essentially calling Europe a shithole.

"America’s median income is also higher than the EU’s; it’s probably higher than even the UKs.  People in America are just more hard working than Europeans because Europeans are too lazy."

Our poverty rates are comparable.

In America, we do better, mainly because gas here usually sells for under $1.2 a liter.  I’m Europe, you couldn’t get gas that cheap.

Why should I sacrifice for strangers?  How many kids have you sponsored?  If the answer is 0, it’s hypocritical to demand others sacrifice for strangers when you don’t sacrifice with your own funds.

Yeah, because Americans don’t subsidize laziness and unproductivity.  

If you think that’s wrong, adopt a homeless bum from some random country.  That’s your right.  Just don’t tread on my economic liberty.

Compared to America, any place is a shithole and in general, American immigrants hate socialism(which is why they move here as opposed to Spain).  Also, the term shithole isn’t just for black countries; some whit countries are shitholes too.  I’m not racist.  

Compared to the states of Texas, Florida, Tenessee, and Nevada (America’s freedom outposts), every other state is either a crap place to live or filled with too socialistic income taxes.  Make America Texas.  Abortion banned and the income tax unconstitutional.

Once more, you have the most billionaires on the planet by far, which raises your medium income substantially. 

You don't even earn more than me if you work a minimum wage in the US, than what i would in the UK! Why do you brag about the fact that Americans work like Africans and barely get any more pay than Europeans?

It is not a blessing that most people in America cannot choose their holidays; I rarely take vacations because I enjoy my job. It should at least be a choice, though. If you want to be a work dog than do that but don't force that on others.

More time to build a connection with God.

Its truly sad you feel that way when 1 bad decision (like having a child before you're 25) will essentially ensure that you live in economic poverty for the rest of your life, when your brain and decision making isn't even fully developed.

Is that really a haven to you?

America is great but its still a shithole!

stop being complacent thinking America is the ultimate place, like you don't have people born into poverty. Like you don't have people suffering and blowing their goddamn heads off because they hurt so much! Like you don't have people not being able to afford to pay for their cancer treatment. Like people don't work 60 hours a week on two jobs just to survive.

Being in poverty is worse in America than in most of Europe. At least I can still go to the dentist.

There is better public transport in Europe. People don't realise how much a car costs.

You happen to live in a society which has agreed (through votes and elections) its worthwhile to have taxes!

If you want to clean the boots of your corp daddies all day, that doesn't mean others should want that.

I'm not lazy if I don't want to fill out paper work all day when I could still have a nice life with more holidays.

Yes, we can. That's what democracy is.

t is not even the most democratic nation on the planet. There are studies to back this stuff up.