The many debates on systemic racism in America are flawed

Debates: 3

Posts: 13,529

08.01.2021 08:46PM

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@Fruit_Inspector

But an example might be affirmative action type programs. Such are intended to benefit minorities in terms of college admittance or access to financial resources not afforded to white people.

Any law that uses "skin-tone" as a pre-qualifier is an example of "systemic racism".

#92

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Posts: 855

08.01.2021 09:07PM

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@3RU7AL

So when a recent COVID stimulus package tried to include a measure that would only give money to black farmers and exclude white farmers, that would be an example of systemic racism. Because the money would be distributed only to those of a certain skin tone.

This is part of the problem with proponents of CRT. They are trying to justify racist laws and policies today like the above COVID relief measures for black farmers. They are fighting alleged invisible systemic racism with actual and explicit systemic racism.

#93

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08.01.2021 10:23PM

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@Fruit_Inspector

They are fighting alleged invisible systemic racism with actual and explicit systemic racism.

Sure, but you can't reasonably pretend that implicit "systemic racism" "does not exist".

Just because one type "seems worse" to you, doesn't mean the other is not ALSO a serious problem.

#94

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Posts: 855

08.01.2021 10:44PM

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@3RU7AL

So to be clear, you are saying that white people are currently victims of systemic racism in the U.S., correct?

#95

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08.01.2021 10:52PM

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@Fruit_Inspector

So to be clear, you are saying that white people are currently victims of systemic racism in the U.S., correct?

NOT receiving free money from the government is hardly comparable to receiving disproportionate prison time.

#96

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Posts: 855

08.01.2021 10:54PM

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@3RU7AL

That was not an answer to my question. So to be clear, you are saying that white people are currently victims of systemic racism in the U.S., correct?

Topic's author

#97

Debates: 77

Posts: 3,565

08.02.2021 12:26AM

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@3RU7AL

You are entirely ignoring the point:

(THEN) the law should treat violators EXACTLY THE SAME

Given that the law is absolutely silent on racial differences, that means the law does not distinguish racial differences and that means the racial animus is NOT SYSTEMIC, it is individual. Those who break the law, even by their interpretation of it, ought to be prosecuted for it. That we do not is just further evidence of individual cause, because the law has no mention of relaxing punishment. That is so bloody obvious, it ought to hit you over the head. That is does not ought to also indicate who has the problem of knowing the difference. Hint: it isn 't the law. What do you think "system": means, after all? Nothing is a system that does not have a consistency to its rules. How people approach and practice those rules is the variation, the disparity you see. If the law did stipulate racial discrimination, then you have systemic racism. It once did, but that time has passed. Some people just don't get it, yet. Got a mirror?

Topic's author

#98

Debates: 77

Posts: 3,565

08.02.2021 12:31AM

I will try this again:

The system is not people, it is the documented rules of the road. The people are not the road. The people act either within the system or outside of it, just as some people ignore road rules, run stop signs, red lights, cross a double-yellow, and even a double-double yellow, to turn, etc, etc. The rules are precise; the observation of them is what the root cause of racism is all about. Why is that so hard to understand?

#99

Debates: 31

Posts: 965

08.02.2021 02:19AM

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@fauxlaw

I can see your distinction between the individual and the system, but I think that's too surface level. If everyone in the system is racist, I agree that this is not systemic racism as defined by you, but it as good is. What is the practical difference between a systemically racist organisation, and one which does nothing to prevent it's individuals from being racist?

Do you believe individual racism is an urgent issue which needs to be addressed?

Topic's author

#100

Debates: 77

Posts: 3,565

08.02.2021 02:23AM

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@Bones

If everyone in the system is racist,

It should be obvious that everyone in the system is not racist. Come on. That the media would have you think so is just as obvious, but they are more guilty than most.

#101

Debates: 31

Posts: 965

08.02.2021 02:24AM

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@fauxlaw

It should be obvious that everyone in the system is not racist. Come on. That the media would have you think so is just as obvious, but they are more guilty than most.

Well enough people are racist to allow disparities in healthcare and education.

Answer the question, Do you believe individual racism is an urgent issue which needs to be addressed?

#102

Debates: 31

Posts: 965

08.02.2021 02:26AM

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@fauxlaw

If everyone in the system is racist,
It should be obvious that everyone in the system is not racist. Come on.

Also, I literally said

If everyone in the system is racist, I agree that this is not systemic racism as defined by you, but it as good is.

I wasn't saying that everyone in the system is racist. I'm saying that IF they are racist, THEN that is not proof of systemic racism as defined by you.

Topic's author

#103

Debates: 77

Posts: 3,565

08.02.2021 08:57AM

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@Bones

Do you believe individual racism is an urgent issue which needs to be addressed?

Yes, but, in a democratic republic, the only means to change is to follow the law by each individual, and to fairly mete out justice to violators in all cases. The system is already set up to do that, but both sides need to improve their performance. To that end, it is still individuals who change; not the system.

Topic's author

#104

Debates: 77

Posts: 3,565

08.02.2021 08:59AM

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@Bones

I agree that this is not systemic racism as defined by you, but it as good is.

Don't make it sound like that's just my definition of systemic; it is not exclusively mine. It is a universal standard; the only logic that holds.

#105

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Posts: 13,529

08.05.2021 02:38PM

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@Fruit_Inspector

NOT receiving free money from the government is hardly comparable to receiving disproportionate prison time.

#106

Debates: 3

Posts: 13,529

08.05.2021 02:42PM

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@fauxlaw

(THEN) the law should treat violators EXACTLY THE SAME
Given that the law is absolutely silent on racial differences, that means the law does not distinguish racial differences...

Why is 500 grams of power equal to 5 grams of baked powder ?

#107

Debates: 3

Posts: 13,529

08.05.2021 02:46PM

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@Bones

I can see your distinction between the individual and the system, but I think that's too surface level. If everyone in the system is racist, I agree that this is not systemic racism as defined by you, but it as good is.

I'd say functionally indistinguishable from "systemic racism".

#108

Debates: 20

Posts: 855

08.05.2021 02:48PM

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@3RU7AL

That was only a single example. Black people do not receive disproportionate prison time. Only people who associate black skin with crack users view the world that way. Even if the penalty for powder vs crack cocaine was unfair, it would be disproportionate between users of those drugs regardless of skin color. You are perpetuating stereotypes.

But the main point is that you seem to agree white people are victims of systemic racism that can actually be identified in the letter of the law.

#109

Debates: 3

Posts: 13,529

08.05.2021 02:54PM

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@Fruit_Inspector

That was only a single example. Black people do not receive disproportionate prison time. Only people who associate black skin with crack users view the world that way. Even if the penalty for powder vs crack cocaine was unfair, it would be disproportionate between users of those drugs regardless of skin color. You are perpetuating stereotypes.

But the main point is that you seem to agree white people are victims of systemic racism that can actually be identified in the letter of the law.

Let's say we tax pinatas at 500%.

That's not (technically) "racist" because it's the same tax regardless of "skin-tone".

#110

Debates: 20

Posts: 855

08.05.2021 03:00PM

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@3RU7AL

I'm white and I have used a lot of pinatas in my day. Do you only associate pinatas with brown people? Seems a bit stereotypical...

#111

Debates: 3

Posts: 13,529

08.05.2021 03:17PM

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@Fruit_Inspector

I'm white and I have used a lot of pinatas in my day. Do you only associate pinatas with brown people? Seems a bit stereotypical...

I'M NOT SUGGESTING 100% OF PINATA SALES ARE TO PEOPLE OF ONE SKIN-TONE.

I'M SUGGESTING THAT A TAX ON PINATA SALES DISPROPORTIONATELY IMPACTS PEOPLE OF ONE SKIN-TONE.

MAKING IT FUNCTIONALLY INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM A SKIN-TONE TAX.

#112

Debates: 20

Posts: 855

08.05.2021 03:34PM

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@3RU7AL

I'M SUGGESTING THAT A TAX ON PINATA SALES DISPROPORTIONATELY IMPACTS PEOPLE OF ONE SKIN-TONE.

If white people make up 73% of the U.S. population and Mexicans only make up 18%, then which skin tone do you think it would disproportionately affect? How many pinatas do you think Mexicans are buying?

I understand the point you are trying to make though. I just disagree. For one, it requires one to at least dabble in stereotyping. I would guess white people buy more pinatas in the U.S. than Mexicans so I think the example is flawed. But taking the point more generally, if only Mexicans were taxed 500%, yes that would be systemic racism. If everyone is taxed 500%, that is just good ol' fashioned government overreach.

#113

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Posts: 13,529

08.05.2021 03:41PM

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@Fruit_Inspector

For one, it requires one to at least dabble in stereotyping.

Hippies like weed.

Hippies hate war.

Can't arrest hippies for being anti-war.

Increase penalties for weed.

Half of your "problem" is solved.

IT'S NOT JUST "RACISM".

#114

Debates: 20

Posts: 855

08.05.2021 03:51PM

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@3RU7AL

Black people are poorer than white people.

Black people are less intelligent than white people.

Lower the standards and give more money to the poor unintelligent black people.

The whole "problem" is solved.

That is racism - both in its view of black people and its discrimination of white people.

8 days later

#115

Debates: 14

Posts: 993

08.13.2021 09:02PM

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@fauxlaw

systemic bias is a form of systemic racism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemic_bias. lol by the way if we just fire everyone for bias cops would go down significantly i doubt you support defund the police.

#116

Debates: 14

Posts: 993

08.13.2021 09:06PM

also do you think black people disproportionately being in impoverished areas is individual bias?

#117

Debates: 3

Posts: 13,529

08.13.2021 10:24PM

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@Fruit_Inspector

Black people are poorer than white people.

Black people are less intelligent than white people.

Lower the standards and give more money to the poor unintelligent black people.

The whole "problem" is solved.

That is racism - both in its view of black people and its discrimination of white people.

What the heck are you talking about ?

#118

Debates: 14

Posts: 993

08.13.2021 10:28PM

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@3RU7AL

hes pivoting; but for context what hes saying is that we are the real racists for thinking thy arent intelligent (no one said that) but his logic is that bad schools=unintelligent

#119

Debates: 3

Posts: 13,529

08.13.2021 10:41PM

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@drlebronski

hes pivoting; but for context what hes saying is that we are the real racists for thinking thy arent intelligent (no one said that) but his logic is that bad schools=unintelligent

POOR = BAD = DUMB

RICH = GOOD = SMART

#120

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Posts: 993