Biblical contradiction

Author: TheUnderdog

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TheUnderdog
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Question to the Bible: Should foreigners be treated the same way as native born people?

Bible: Yes

"The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”"  Exodus 12:49

Bible: No

“At the end of seven years, you shall have a release of debts … Of a foreigner you may require it; but you shall give up your claim to what is owed by your brother” (Deuteronomy 15:1-3)

Me: If God exists, he can't be all knowing otherwise he would have foreseen his contradiction and rectified it.


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@Tradesecret
@TheUnderdog


TheUnderdog,

Yes, the true Christian like myself accepts that there are Bible contradictions equal to the number of times the Bible dumbfounded Tradesecret has RAN AWAY from my Jesus inspired posts to them!  It's just a part of having to be a Bronze and Iron Age thinking Christian in the 21st century.  

One of my favorite Bible contradictions is the following:

JESUS STATED: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)
JESUS STATED: "If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20 )

TheUnderdog, as a true Christian, I can only assume that because of the blatant contradiction Jesus made shown above, He was probably drinking just a little too much wine with His 12 disciples, and forgot what He said before, and therefore, He contradicted Himself many, many, many, times. :(

Unfortunately, you are not going to get any "pseudo-christians" coming into your thread upon your topic because most of them get tired and embarrassed quickly in turning themselves into Satanic pretzels in "trying" to explain away Biblical contradictions.  Although I have to admit, when they do "try" to explain away Bible contradictions, it is as funny as watching a Dave Chappelle comedy act!




TheUnderdog
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@BrotherDThomas
TheUnderdog, as a true Christian, I can only assume that because of the blatant contradiction Jesus made shown above, He was probably drinking just a little too much wine with His 12 disciples, and forgot what He said before, and therefore, He contradicted Himself many, many, many, times. :(
If the Bible contradicts its self, why take Christianity seriously?  If God is all knowing, he would have known better than to drink wine if it would lead to contradictions.  Why follow a God that contradicts himself and never rectifies the contradiction?
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@TheUnderdog
In the Hebrew, the word in your first quote (which your translation has as "foreigner") is different from the word in verse 3 of the second quote which is also translated as "foreigner."

This is a problem with using translations -- the Hebrew is more precise in the choice of words to avoid exactly this misunderstanding. Of course, there is much more to it (because the word in the first quote is qualified by a specific Hebrew phrase so it means something different from the same word when used without that phrase) but just as a start, please understand the essential flaw which led to the specific example you presented.

By the way, I think that the picture you use as your avatar is Ben Shapiro. Is that correct?
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@rosends
If languages can present drastically different meanings, then why would God create languages so different if it leads to biblical contradictions?  This is Ben Shapiro by the way.
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@TheUnderdog
If I have laws to give to my kids, I use the language they know and which most accurately represents what I want them to understand about the laws. No one from the group that received the laws would have recognized the words you cited in Translation as a contradiction. 
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@rosends
Then God could have made it so languages don't change and so we all could speak the same language.  Instead, he confuses us with these different languages so now he has to live with the fact that we all think the bible contains contradictions.  If God is all knowing, then he confused us with these different languages on purpose so now he has only himself to blame for people not understanding what the bible says.
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@TheUnderdog
If you recall the tower of babel story, God specifically introduced into the world the kinds of divisions caused by distinct languages. I bet there are people who don't speak English who think that the US Constitution makes no sense because it has a phrase like "Congress shall make no law". I mean, who sets up a government and says that congress can't make any laws?

God didn't confuse US with the languages. He confused the languages to separate us from others. The laws that he gave, he gave in one particular language because those laws weren't meant for others. Is it a problem that the US laws are in English? Wait, says a Ukrainian, living in the Ukraine, I think that the laws, translated into Ukrainian, have problems -- how am I supposed to follow them? Answer -- you aren't. They aren't your laws.

But, continues the Ukrainian, what if I want to follow the elements of your laws that make sense to apply to other people besides you? Well then, the American says, trust an American-native-English-speaker-lawyer to explain it to.

And Ben Shapiro would endorse what I said.
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@rosends
 I bet there are people who don't speak English who think that the US Constitution makes no sense because it has a phrase like "Congress shall make no law".
The sentence is something along the lines of, "Congress shall make no law protecting the establishment of a religion or prohibiting the free excersize thereof".  It's saying that congress can't be a theocracy by promoting certain religions.

He confused the languages to separate us from others.
He made different languages because he got angry at us because we built a building.

The laws that he gave, he gave in one particular language because those laws weren't meant for others.
The entire bible was written in Hebrew originally, so the contradicting laws applies to the Hebrews.

Is it a problem that the US laws are in English? Wait, says a Ukrainian, living in the Ukraine, I think that the laws, translated into Ukrainian, have problems -- how am I supposed to follow them? Answer -- you aren't. They aren't your laws.
American and Ukrainian laws are different from each other.  Biblical laws are supposed to be for all christians, irrespective of their nationality.

what if I want to follow the elements of your laws that make sense to apply to other people besides you?
Move to the US and you get to follow American laws.

And Ben Shapiro would endorse what I said.
I don't agree with Shapiro on religion, but I agree with him on a lot.  I don't believe something just because it's the democrat or the republican thing to believe.
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@TheUnderdog
The sentence is something along the lines of, "Congress shall make no law protecting the establishment of a religion or prohibiting the free excersize thereof".  It's saying that congress can't be a theocracy by promoting certain religions.

But the non-English speaker translated it, and stopped the phrase after "no law" so he concludes it means something else.  Maybe it would be better to study it in the English.

He made different languages because he got angry at us because we built a building.

That is your understanding. It is not a one normative within many religious communities. If you are going to stay within your particular view then, yes, you will end up with your particular conclusions. But then to ask for other opinions won't be helpful to your understanding because they require a different outlook.

The entire bible was written in Hebrew originally, so the contradicting laws applies to the Hebrews.

The text was given in a combination of a few languages but yes, mostly Hebrew. So the laws were understood by and applied to the group whose language it was. This is what I am saying, yes. But to that group, what you cite as a contradiction wouldn't have been one.

American and Ukrainian laws are different from each other.  Biblical laws are supposed to be for all christians, irrespective of their nationality.

Christians? Who cares about them? The laws are Jewish laws and the language is the national language of Judaism (if we view "Jew" as a tag of nationality, but that's a semantic sidepoint).

Move to the US and you get to follow American laws.

Very true! Convert to Judaism, and you get to follow Jewish laws.

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@TheUnderdog
What I'm getting it at is that you haven't cited a "biblical contradiction" but a "translational contradiction" so the question should be limited to those who rely on the translation to build a theology around.
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@TheUnderdog
Contradictions certainly exist within the Bible. Its just reality. Personally I roll down into a different rabbit hole of open canon which is not usually popular with most main Christian groups. If you believe all scripture is written and revelation is over, or closed canon, then figuring out the contradictions in scripture usually becomes some battle of semantics and translation debate. It's really up to the individual to come to their own conclusion here. Some Christians prefer just to take from the Bible in parts, others say it all must be perfect, and more yet say it is incomplete or imperfect. Up to you my dude.
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To have it a guess , id sayThere would have to be close to one billion Christians in the top 100 of all time in scripture deciphering. 
Imagine a Christian saying that they are " average " scripture translators. 


Who could ever guess what it is that they might make their God tell them next. 
TheUnderdog
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@rosends
What I'm getting it at is that you haven't cited a "biblical contradiction" but a "translational contradiction" so the question should be limited to those who rely on the translation to build a theology around.
If God knew this was going to happen, does that make Christainity flawed?
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@TheUnderdog
That's a fine question which isn't mine to answer. I can point out issues for others to wrestle with. I'll just stay me.
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@TheUnderdog
Including the preceding sentence helps make the meaning of Exodus 12:49 clear:

"No uncircumcised male may eat [the Passover]. The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you."

Exodus 12:49 is obviously not saying that foreigners should be treated the same as native-born Israelites in all respects. The very section it is found in is makes multiple distinctions between the two. It makes far more sense that "The same law" is in reference to the prohibition of uncircumcised males eating the Passover meal.
949havoc
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@TheUnderdog

The contradictions found in the Bible are legion. So what?
1. Most books contain contradictions, so why should the Bible be singled out for criticism?
2. And it's not as if the volume has a single one of its 66 books for which, to our knowledge, an original document [scroll].
3. Nor can it be assured that those who translated knew enough of an original language - even if #2 were not a huge issue.
4. Nor can it be assumed that biblical cultures were understood by 12th, 13th century translators, even if #2 were not a huge issue.

We're lucky the Bible is as well off in good words to live by as it is,  in any modern language.
Stephen
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@949havoc
The contradictions found in the Bible are legion. So what?


It throws serious doubt on the claim that it was inspired and or written by a perfect all knowing god. That's what!


1. Most books contain contradictions, so why should the Bible be singled out for criticism?

Because the claim is that it was inspired and or written by a perfect all knowing god. That's why.


2. And it's not as if the volume has a single one of its 66 books for which, to our knowledge, an original document [scroll].


Yet it is believed by millions as being the word of God.


3. Nor can it be assured that those who translated knew enough of an original language - even if #2 were not a huge issue.

 This is true. Yet is is still  read and preached from in every Christian pulpit around the globe.



4. Nor can it be assumed that biblical cultures were understood by 12th, 13th century translators, even if #2 were not a huge issue.


 This is true. Yet it is still  read and preached from in every Christian pulpit around the globe.




We're lucky the Bible is as well off in good words to live by as it is,  in any modern language.

And for every "good word" or verse you may find in the bible, there will be others that contradict it.



From Jesus himself:

Equal then not equal

 John 10:30 " I and the Father are one".   

John 14:28  “ I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I" .

I judge then I don't judge 

John 5:22 , 30. " Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son.  By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just".

John 8:15     " You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.

John 12:47  " I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.


I am my own witness and it is true. Then It is not true.

John 8:14  “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going".

John 5:31   “If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true.

Man is not my witness. Man is my witness .

John 33-34   “You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. 34 Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved.

John 15:27  "And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

Over to you.

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Because the bible is written by fallible men or something like that. 
949havoc
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@Stephen
It throws serious doubt on the claim that it was inspired and or written by a perfect all knowing god.

the claim is that it was inspired and or written by a perfect all knowing god. 

Who claims the Bible had a single word written by God? You? Pardon my laugh.
What is preached from pulpits is what it is. We are left to agree or disagree by personal freedom of choice.

for every "good word" or verse you may find in the bible, there will be others that contradict it.
A claim that will require citation. You offered four examples. Is that all?


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@TheUnderdog
Question to the Bible: Should foreigners be treated the same way as native born people?

Bible: Yes

"The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”"  Exodus 12:49

Bible: No

“At the end of seven years, you shall have a release of debts … Of a foreigner you may require it; but you shall give up your claim to what is owed by your brother” (Deuteronomy 15:1-3)

Contradiction created by translation.

Exodus 12:49 foreigner = guest
Deuteronomy 15:3 foreigner = stranger


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@TheUnderdog
why does the bible have to be 100% accurate for God himself to be inerrant? that's a very simplistic and artificial worldview 
Stephen
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@949havoc

Who claims the Bible had a single word written by God? You? Pardon my laugh.

Nope I believe I said inspired or "God breathed";
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

I would agree with you again if you are saying that god did not write the bible as it is clearly human hand that put pen to paper. But it is the bible itself that claims that the words are "god inspired". Take it or leave it, I don't give a  two shites either way. 
That said, who wrote on the wall, was it god or man, Daniel 5?  







A claim that will require citation. You offered four examples. Is that all?
One is enough to prove that the bible is contradictory and totally unreliable.  And you are simply arguing for the sake of arguing which is something many Christians do on this forum. Ethang5 was a master at it, but that was all he was good for. 

And let us not forget that you  have admitted to there being many contradictions in the bible;
here>.#17
949havoc " The contradictions found in the Bible are legion. ". And I agree with you.

And those verses were four from the mouth of Jesus/god himself.  And here are a few more from "the lord" himself.


JESUS said: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)
JESUS said: "If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." (1 John 4:20 )


John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Genesis 32:30  And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Exodus33:11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.


And there are  many more, but you are too stupid to be able to read them for yourself although you have admitted to there being a "legion" of contradictions.. So I won't be doing your homework for you.  

And I ask you not to derail another members thread with the  Ethangesque cretinous idiocy that you are clearly displaying . 

Off you go now.




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@TheUnderdog
Native or Foreign?

Depends upon how you cherry-pick history.


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@TheUnderdog
Question to the Bible: Should foreigners be treated the same way as native born people?

Bible: Yes

"The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”"  Exodus 12:49
Hi TheUnderdog,

Exodus 12:49 is suggesting that all (male) foreigners who want to celebrate a Jewish festival (Passover) must be circumcised.   It in the context is NOT suggesting that Jewish females nor foreigner females should be circumcised to celebrate the Passover.  So the law where both the native born and non-native born was requiring those from outside Israel who wanted to be part of a Specific Jewish festival required to undertake the ceremonial sign of the covenant. 


Bible: No

“At the end of seven years, you shall have a release of debts … Of a foreigner you may require it; but you shall give up your claim to what is owed by your brother” (Deuteronomy 15:1-3)
Exactly.  Since the promised land was to Jews not to Gentiles,  the debt in respect of the land was canceled to Jews and not Gentiles. Different rules applied to people within the covenant as opposed to those outside it. Hence in both cases - if one outside the covenant wanted to participate within the covenant celebrations they needed to demonstrate respect for the covenant. Hence circumcision but also an understanding of the promise and who it was for. 


Me: If God exists, he can't be all knowing otherwise he would have foreseen his contradiction and rectified it.

Me, I look at these two laws and recognise a wonderful and beautiful harmony for God's people over and above those outside of the covenant. There is NO contradiction. 
BrotherDThomas
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@Stephen
@949havoc

949havoc, the little pseudo-christian runaway from biblical axioms,

HERE YOU ARE hiding out in another thread!  Why are you running away from Jesus' words in the following link, again, are you too SCARED and NERVOUS to address them in front of the membership and Jesus?  Is that it?  You made claims to me, then when I answered them, then YOU RAN AWAY LIKE YOUR HERO TRADESECRET is known to do ad infinitum!  LOL!  Now, get your Satanic ass back into the discussion within the following link, RUNAWAY!


To address your continued biblical ignorance, you stated the following: "Who claims the Bible had a single word written by God? You? Pardon my laugh."

No, we have to "LAUGH" at you and your child like knowledge of the scriptures!  ROFLOL!!!!   In having too easily "school" you once again, Jesus, as our serial killer Yahweh God incarnate, wrote the Bible, get it Bible fool?  "For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." (2 Peter 1:21)

Now, does your Bible stupidity want to say that Jesus' inspired words in the passage above is a LIE?  If you can find your "big boy" pants this time, and actually answer instead of running away like a little pseudo-christian "girly boy" like you did in the link above, and if you say that Jesus did not write the Bible, I WILL BIBLE SLAP YOU SILLY INTO NEXT WEEK, UNDERSTOOD?

BEGIN:






BrotherDThomas
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@Stephen
@Tradesecret
@949havoc


Stephen,  the Hell Bound Atheist that knows more about the Bible than any inept pseudo-christian upon this forum,

As we've see many times before, many Bible inept pseudo-christians frequent this esteemed Religion forum, whereas it's latest entry is the ever so Bible stupid 949HAOC, which reminds me of ethang5's pseudo-christian style, where what he thinks he knows, he doesn't subsequent to easily correcting this Bible fool!  Its like these pseudo-christians in question peruse this forum to see who is the outstanding Bible ignorant of the lot, which is TRADESECRET, and then venture in to this forum to over take TRADESECRETS total Bible stupidity! Because of TRADESECRET'S mounting runaways from my godly inspired posts, I am getting close to actually having to hire a secretary to keep track of all of them which is my godly duty to do so, praise!

Its like DEBATEART Religion Forum has a sign out front saying: "If you truly are Bible birdbrained, and don't know your ass from a wild grape regarding the scriptures, you are most certainly welcomed within this forum!  
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@BrotherDThomas
whereas it's latest entry is the ever so Bible stupid 949HAVOC, where what he thinks he knows, he doesn't subsequent to easily correcting this Bible fool! 

He's doing a very good impression of the complete and utter bible retarded cretin ethang5, don't you think , Brother?
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@949havoc
You have to remember that the anti-Christian atheist and theist here believe if one Christian believes it then all of Christianity follows it.
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@BrotherDThomas
"...but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." (2 Peter 1:21)
Your own citation admits that God, himself, did no writing. There was no desk, no chair, no writing implement, no paper, and no written words  distributed from the HQ of God. God revealed - inspired, and men wrote. Have I say any different? No, and neither have you demonstrated any different by your bible-bash. 

Show me one word God has written. Not revealed, not inspired to man, but himself, writing at HQ.  That is not the origin of the Bible, my friend, but believe what fantasies you will. It does not, by the way, discount that the Bible does contain the word of God revealed to man, but that's all it is.

No religion having any holy writ whatsoever makes the claim that deity wrote the words. No need of big boy pants to get that concept, but then, things a child understands are often muddled by adults. It's what we do.

Begin.