Vanilla Mafia DP 1

Author: Discipulus_Didicit

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#271
ILikePie5
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@Lunatic
That was in direct response to me pointing out that the game was different, and you didn't point out right at all that you had made a mistake, instead you tried to downplay the impact of what you had said by saying "I never said it makes you 100% town". So this indicates that you are changing the story later because you realized that argument didn't hold water...
Again it’s obvious I misread what you said. Believe it or not, I don’t read what you say seriously half the time because it’s not going to change my mind.

I don't know what his scum tell is, we likely haven't seen it because he's been town in every game so far. We have plenty of evidence to support his behavior is similar to games he's played as town, and not much to show that it's different. Logically, he is more likely just town again. What do we learn from his lynch? That pointing out obvious subtext isn't a scum tell? You are the only one that has a problem with that. No one else learns anything from this.
Every small detail matters. Your literally does nothing to identify if Evil will ever be scum. He could just keep OMGUS and bam he’s town on your list. Having the same behavior as town last game doesn’t remove him from the scum list - you and I both know that. It’s the deviations that matter.

It's not a divergence, it's a simple added clarification to a behavior he has used AS TOWN. A behavior you admitted was a null tell.
This is just false. Prove he’s use (town) anywhere after We or Us before this game.

But that wasn't reportedly the reason you were voting me. You told wylted it was because of OMGUS. Why are you changing the story?
I literally am not. I’ve already agreed I was voting for you cause of OMGUS which is what I told Wylted. But I was also voting for you cause you’re simply an asshole who decided they were gonna tunnel me for absolutely no reason today. I didn’t say that say that explicitly but i conveyed it when I told everyone to pick a side. I got off the lynch because I am scum hunting. Your vote hasn’t changed once. You were voting me cause you don’t like me. You’re still voting me cause you don’t like me. And when I flip town I’ll be laughing at you for tunneling me the entire DP and not doing anything constructive.
#272
ILikePie5
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@Lunatic
That kind of backward thinking hurts town. I tried the same shit with greyparrot and it never accomplished anything. If it didn't work the last 3 times, why is that gonna change the 4th time we lynch him? A better alternative to the policy lynch you suggest is to not allow people like that to play.
GP is a different situation because he just claims his role and isn’t a noob like Evil. And GP at least is interested in the game and posts often. 

I’d be fine with black listing Evil if he doesn’t step up his game.

I'd rather just identify the town similarities and save an obvious mislynch for one that is less obvious.
And that’s going to backfire on you one day. You scum hunt by finding deviations in behavior - at least this early in the game. Noob town reads are just as likely to cover for noob scum reads. You can let that go every game or find the deviations and lynch him for not conforming to his town game.

Lynching them isn't going to change that apparently. We've tried 3 times to no avail. It definitely benefits mafia though.
He keeps getting lynched he’s gotta change something. I get the vibe that English isn’t his first language either which could be why he’s not as interested either. Either way simply dismissing him as noob town without even considering any deviations lacks merit
#273
ILikePie5
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I’ll be on later tonight. I gotta grind before the games today and tomorrow.

#274
Lunatic
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@ILikePie5
Again it’s obvious I misread what you said. Believe it or not, I don’t read what you say seriously half the time because it’s not going to change my mind.
First of all I know you don't read what I say. You are proving what I was saying at the start of the day phase right. That's why you respond with the one liners so often because it gives you the appearance of having the last word, even though you didn't touch a thing I said lol. But specifically it's scummy in this situation because your story is changing. You try to downplay that you were suggesting I was scum, then you try to make it seem like you mis spoke. 

Every small detail matters. Your literally does nothing to identify if Evil will ever be scum. He could just keep OMGUS and bam he’s town on your list. Having the same behavior as town last game doesn’t remove him from the scum list - you and I both know that. It’s the deviations that matter.
Why don't the similarities matter? The deviation you pointed out is hardly a deviation lol.

This is just false. Prove he’s use (town) anywhere after We or Us before this game.
And if he flips town what did we learn? That your "deviation" wasn't actually a deviation and he just did the same shit he always does as town? Cool, glad we are down a number and no further towards catching scum. 

I literally am not. I’ve already agreed I was voting for you cause of OMGUS which is what I told Wylted. But I was also voting for you cause you’re simply an asshole who decided they were gonna tunnel me for absolutely no reason today. I didn’t say that say that explicitly but i conveyed it when I told everyone to pick a side. I got off the lynch because I am scum hunting. Your vote hasn’t changed once. You were voting me cause you don’t like me. You’re still voting me cause you don’t like me. And when I flip town I’ll be laughing at you for tunneling me the entire DP and not doing anything constructive.
Lol I like you, so you can drop that part. I talk to you normally on discord out side the game do you not? I just know that you love to argue for the sake of arguing, and I am getting tired of letting it control the narrative that you are actually winning an argument because you had the last word. If that is going to be your strategy, I am going to make it back fire on you for the times you are town until you either stop the behavior entirely, or until I have a role that allows me to kill you for town's benefit. What happens in mafia stays in mafia, but I am going to try and correct a repeat bad behavior if this is going to continue in literally every game we play. I am not going anywhere, and niether are you. If we are the two loudest in the room and it works against town, then we need to start correcting that behavior. 
#275
Lunatic
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@ILikePie5
GP is a different situation because he just claims his role and isn’t a noob like Evil. And GP at least is interested in the game and posts often. 

I’d be fine with black listing Evil if he doesn’t step up his game.

GP is not different. We had to adapt the way we play and read greyparrot. What makes you think the next time GP is a bomb he isn't just gonna claim popular townie again? Do you think him blowing up a townie and getting lectured in the endgame by his peers made him care? He is gonna do what he does. Always has. We can keep punishing ourselves by making the same mistakes, or we can adapt to the player instead of paint their motives with a broad stroke and mislynch everytime.

And that’s going to backfire on you one day. You scum hunt by finding deviations in behavior - at least this early in the game. Noob town reads are just as likely to cover for noob scum reads. You can let that go every game or find the deviations and lynch him for not conforming to his town game.
There are no deviations here though. The thing you highlighted isn't a deviation lol. We have seen more similarities to his town play here then any differences.  

He keeps getting lynched he’s gotta change something. I get the vibe that English isn’t his first language either which could be why he’s not as interested either. Either way simply dismissing him as noob town without even considering any deviations lacks merit
That worked great for greyparrot, skittlez, croc, and bear
#276
whiteflame
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@Lunatic
Suffice it to say that I still disagree with you. I think a lot of your defense of him basically amounts to "this is not pro-scum behavior", which I agree with, but I also don't believe that he would exhibit pro-scum behaviors. I think scum Evil would behave a lot like town Evil, though I think the differences I've pointed out suggest where there are distinctions. We haven't seen Evil as scum, so we can't know precisely how he would act were he scum, but it sounds like you and I are coming at reading his behaviors from very different perspectives, and that's leading us to two different conclusions.

I also think that there's value in his flip. I feel that I could do a lot with that information at this point because I've seen how many of us have responded to this wagon. I already have some ideas in mind about how I'd go into the next DP, whether he ends up being scum or town, and I especially feel that it would help me decide whether a lynch on either you or Pie would be warranted. And, to the contrary, I see markedly little value in lynching Pie. At best, that's going to be a good indicator for you. And I'll also note that, despite your saying that "he can control the narrative with the rest of town", I'm seeing you displaying more control than him at the moment, considering that both Wylted and Bron have come over to your perspective. I've been with scum Pie, and, at the moment, I disagree that what he's done in this DP is obviously scummy. If that leads to difficult lynches in the future, so be it, but it's unlikely that I'll be coming over to your perspective at this point.

I wouldn't have pointed that out. But if you are noticing your own similarities to wylted's own bad lynching habit from the last game, I suppose that is a start in the right direction.
I'll note that I was noting what makes my perspective distinct from Wylted's in the last game. I'll also note that you were the one who, in the first game where I was scum, pointed out that I was too self-conscious in my posts.

Well if evil is lynched, and you are right, I'll be happy to be proven wrong. I'll admit happily to being a jackass in that case. I just feel like we are repeating the same mistake with him that we have in the past 3 games and I fear we are learning slowly. Maybe I am wrong though. 
I'll be the first to admit that we haven't made the best choices with Evil in the last couple of games. That being said, I think we'd be making a pretty big mistake say that the lesson from those games is to townread strange behavior from Evil or even to treat him as null in those instances.

#277
whiteflame
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@Lunatic
I noticed that you didn't catch my post about being willing to consider the Poly lynch. I don't think it is at all plausible at this point that Evil and Pie are a scum team, and since I'm still sussing Evil at the moment, that makes the Pie lynch even further from my consideration for this DP. I could see a hesitant Poly/Evil scum team, though. What makes you think Poly is sus?
Topic's author
#278
Discipulus_Didicit
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Vote Count

Pie (3/5) - Lunatic, evil, drlebronski
lebronski (1/5) - Wylted
Evilgenius (2/5) - Pie, whiteflame

4 hours remain.
#279
drlebronski
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@Lunatic
@Wylted
@whiteflame
@ILikePie5
@Evilgenius
we need to decide on a lynch or just lynch no1
#280
whiteflame
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@drlebronski
Like I told Luna, I'm not shifting over to Pie. I'm willing to consider other options, but given that we have 4 hours, people will have to be on and active to make it happen. 
#281
Wylted
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I am not reading all those text walls back there guys. 

Just recap if anything was important

Unvote vtl pie
#282
Lunatic
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Need one more on pie
#283
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1 more pie vote and the text walls end
#284
ILikePie5
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@Lunatic
I expect an apology when I flip town.
#285
Lunatic
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@ILikePie5
I expect an apology when I flip town.
Hell no. I'll apologize when you stop text chaining without responding to anything I say lol. If you are town this is good for town still. 
#286
ILikePie5
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@Wylted
Just recap if anything was important
It’s pretty simple. 

I’m voting Evil because he said “We( town) are still the majority so a little sacrifice won’t cripple us. 

He has never done this before. Using your own analysis you posted last game about Poly, it is clear this is scummy. 

Whiteflame is voting Evil because of his deviations from his town games - though he’s more qualified 


Luna is on me because he thinks my pursuit of an Evil lynch is opportunistic and he has the support of Bron who’s just bandwagoning and Evil who is being defeatist about his status - another deviance I just realized.

And then you - which I still don’t know why.
#287
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@Lunatic
Hell no. I'll apologize when you stop text chaining without responding to anything I say lol. If you are town this is good for town still. 
You’re the one that started it lol. Not once have you been scum hunting. Our textchain has only happened when we have been opposite affiliations or you scum read me for shitty reasons. And I do respond to you so you can cut that bs. I don’t agree with your viewpoint. Take it or leave it. It’s just like politics. You’re not gonna convince me otherwise.

Either way, if you’re scum here you’re at the top of the chain of NKs. If that fails you’re fucked anyways. Win win situation for me either way.


#288
Polyglot
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I’m not exactly sure why there is a wagon on Pie. Seems like he’s being voted due to the “we and us” argument. But he has explained that it was Evil’s use of “(town)” and the self conscious nature that appeared scummy. Honestly feels like this is also a mislynch. 

Also lunatic wanted pie Lynch from the very beginning just so town avoids the pages of back and forth between him and pie. 
#289
Polyglot
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I have a few reasons for wanting to vote Lunatic out but I don’t think I would be able to convince the majority of town on that in such short time. 

#290
ILikePie5
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@Wylted
@Vader
@drlebronski
Here is the case on Evil from my standpoint.

1. In every game thus far Town Evil has never thought it fit to use “We(town)” or us(town).

But you may think it doesn’t mean much, but let me tell you why it does. Noob Scum Evil here would be extremely cautious in his wording of posts because he doesn’t want to out himself. It’s how as WF mentioned, he was caught in his first scum game. Overcautiousness is massive scum tell for noob mafia.

2. When Evil had a wagon on him, he became extremely defeatist saying this: “Somebody swing the hammer .. I’m done convincing y’all..”

Now this is something that Evil definitely has not done in his past games as town. To his last post he has proclaimed his innocence. Never has he said “fuck y’all lynch me.” This is another classic sign that we’ve used multiple times to catch noob scum. I think Chris comes to mind specifically.

3. The biggest justification I’ve heard for a town Evil is his noobiness with the OMGUS and everything. But that doesn’t mean much. Scum Evil would do the same thing. It’s like me being aggressive as both town and scum. It’s at best a null tell not a town tell. 
#291
ILikePie5
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@Polyglot
Also lunatic wanted pie Lynch from the very beginning just so town avoids the pages of back and forth between him and pie. 
It’s ok I just won’t respond to him anywhere if he’s gonna be an ass about it. I’ll direct my arguments to y’all and if he wants to barge in that’s his perogative.
#292
ILikePie5
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@Polyglot
I have a few reasons for wanting to vote Lunatic out but I don’t think I would be able to convince the majority of town on that in such short time. 
Lunatic’s affiliation depends partially on Evil’s flip. If Evil flips scum Luna is much more likely to be scum. Remember how he defended you in Fast Food? It’s the same thing here. 

I also forgot to tag you in the above post.
#293
drlebronski
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unvote

vtl evilgenius
#294
Vader
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VTL evil
#295
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Well, even given the shift toward an Evil lynch, there's a decent chance that we won't get a lynch off in this DP. There's a clear split between Pie and Evil, and obviously, I feel rather strongly about the Evil lynch. That being said, we can still take information away from this DP, regardless of whether we get a lynch off or not. Holdouts that prevented the lynch from going through should be sussed during the next DP, so everyone who refused to vote throughout this DP (namely Poly) and those who remained adamant about their lynches despite moves to vote in the other direction (Luna and, yes, me too) should be sussed. Particularly in an all Vanilla game, a lynch should be happening in this DP, and anyone that stood in the way of a lynch for substantial lengths of time (might include Wylted in that since he's been jumping around and is currently on Bron, a non-starter at this late stage, despite initially putting Pie at L-1) should immediately be a target of suspicion in the next DP.

I'm still not certain how this DP is going to end, but with only an hour left and a more than decent possibility that I'll be NK'd (I would not be surprised if both Luna and Pie survive the NP, given that a later lynch is almost certainly going to come down to those two), I'm giving my thoughts on POE based on a NL. Hopefully, this is all unnecessary and I just wasted my time writing it out, though I think some of this will still apply regardless of what happens.
#296
ILikePie5
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@Polyglot
Hammer evil 
#297
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@Wylted
Hammer
#298
Evilgenius
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I just don’t understand the controversy of me using ‘We’ .. I’m sure a lot of you have used it to identify with one group or the other. In this case I used WE as a reference to my affiliations to town..

This is just a distraction ..

This will be a mislynch , think hard before this move
#299
ILikePie5
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@Evilgenius
I just don’t understand the controversy of me using ‘We’ .. I’m sure a lot of you have used it to identify with one group or the other. In this case I used WE as a reference to my affiliations to town..
Then why did you include (town) as well?
#300
Lunatic
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sigh... vtl evil.