is it a weak point that many types of miracles of the bible dont happen nowadays?

Author: n8nrgmi

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Tradesecret
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@n8nrgmi
what's your opinion on why only healings seem miraculous these days, and the wide array of miracles that happened in the bible dont seem to happen nowadays?  is god trying to leave plausible deniability to maintain faith? 
For me - the questions of miracles in the bible are to do with signs. 

What is the sign that they were pointing to? At any particular time.

And are these signs things that have already been understood? And moreover what is the sign that is still necessary?

For instance I think the church is a sign now.  Not the building but the people.  And so is baptism a sign. As is communion. 

I am not sure what other signs are still necessary.  The church is a living miracle.  

I don't go so much into healings or other so called miracles.  I am what is known as a "Cessationist" in theological terms. 
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@Tradesecret
this is a side track question... but what do you think of near death experiences? you seem like the type that would view it as new age mumbo jumbo, or maybe the work of satan, or maybe liberalism run amok. 
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@n8nrgmi
this is a side track question... but what do you think of near death experiences? you seem like the type that would view it as new age mumbo jumbo, or maybe the work of satan, or maybe liberalism run amok. 
Great question.  What is near death experience?   Is it someone who has died or someone who is near death?  I have heard of all sorts of stories. In the church I grew up - a Church of Christ.  People would sometimes get up and talk about their near death experience. 

The bible tells me that - when someone dies they either go to be with Jesus in Paradise or  the current heaven or they stay dead until judgment Day.  

I don't believe in purgatory.  I don't believe in reincarnation.   

I think when you die - you stay dead mostly.  There are examples of people in the bible of people dying and then coming back to life again. Paul talks of going to the third heaven.  John gives his experience of heaven. Several others have died - but there is no record of what happened after they died and before they came back to life. There is the parable Jesus gave about Lazarus and the rich man. But it is a parable. 

Seeing lights - watching strings and cords - ghosts -  and big chasms. ??????

I don't see it as new age or even as satanic.  Nor do I see it as liberalism.

I suspect that when people are almost dead or even dead for a moment that there is a real likelihood of brain damage. Their brain is somehow synapsed.  And the chemicals running amok. 

I would not base a theology on these experiences.  So in other words, I won't judge them. For me they are people's experiences - nothing more and nothing less. But certainly nothing I would build my life or death upon.  
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@Tradesecret
So what I conclude  from the above statement is:

You haven't actually got a clue.


I have heard all sorts of stories
Me too.
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@Tradesecret
@n8nrgmi
I suspect that when people are almost dead or even dead for a moment that there is a real likelihood of brain damage. Their brain is somehow synapsed.  And the chemicals running amok.

I would not base a theology on these experiences. 

You have this a bit backwards, the "theology" of the existence of the soul and spirit beings is not based off NDE's. Rather NDE's are simply a product of the reality that the soul exists independent of the physical body. That fact is demonstrated by an extension of conscious experience outside the confines of the human body and brain during experiences of temporary stages of death, as well as spiritual and religious observations throughout the history of the world. When the body, heart and brain shut off (whether permanently or temporary) the soul can freely experience life outside of the body. And since the soul exists even while the body is well, it can also encounter many different types of transcendental observations and experiences with that which transcends physical boundaries while still in the body.

The evidence is strongly against, if not certainly against the claim that NDE experiences are the results of brain damage. The actual effects of brain damage have absolutely zero relation to NDE's lol, damage to the brain includes having physical symptoms that coincide with such an infliction....It really only exposes your lack of clarity and research of the subject according to sources and testimonies that are not speculating to support materialism. Symptoms of brain damage do not correlate with testimonies of conscious experience outside of the body.

The existence of the soul and spirit beings have long been introduced through almost every single spiritual source known to man including your Bible. At least this one feature has been universally prominent and accepted throughout the entire religious kingdom and supported even beyond that through NDE's and paranormal encounters. It isn't something weird, taboo or strictly affiliated with any single source it is a universal proposition/phenomenon. If anything, it is all that surrounds the reality of the soul that tends to become variant and contradicting.
"Beliefs" regarding what happens to souls after death are where the boundaries of sanity start to dissipate. Despite that variance in dogma, there is a continuous, harmonious thread of knowledge that the soul exists independent of the physical body and so when a soul loses their human form they move on from this world.
It is therefore impossible that a soul remains in the grave with their mortal decomposing earthly vessel. Losing the material body is as simple as removing a mask, costume or clothing, there is no continual attachment that occurs when the body is removed from the equation.

Yet strangely, Christians have adopted this unorthodox and bizarre belief that human souls will remain in the dirt until a supposed resurrection....meanwhile the rest of the spiritual, religious world continue on where spirit beings exist and permeate the entire creation of God but somehow a sect of Christians believe souls wait their demise in the grave where their own physical bodies are rotting! this is in direct contrast with evidence and the understood relationship between the physical body and the soul.

Tradesecret doesn't believe and won't accept any other options so the evidence of NDE's and any notions of reincarnation and alternative solutions simply will be avoided and shunned of course, they are just inferior concepts to him for whatever reasons. According to Trade, human souls must remain in the grave before they are appointed to hell or heaven (if they be so lucky).
Souls can go to those places, as they are very much apart of God's vast creation but each soul will move forward after death, there is no waiting period because again...there is no connection between a dead corpse and live soul.

The fear of considering concepts outside of controlled dogma is the type of garbage I was raised in most of my childhood and young adult life, the freedom of belief and logic are not pursued in strict religious squares. "You must believe this or there will be consequences"....Though, I already knew (even then) that when we die the soul leaves the physical body then and there. Not only was it innate to me but it was also clear through understanding much of the Bible and many other spiritual sources of information.
The Bible has many examples of spiritual beings not only currently existing but having relations/communication with humans, why then would anyone believe that this relationship ceases at physical death? Angels, demons, saints and prophets are permitted to roam God's creation but we as souls on earth lie in the grave with a rotting corpse while every other soul outside of this planet engages life? it is a nonsensical and impossible speculation. 



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Remember that they didn't have smart phones back in olden days when all the miracles were happening. You know, like the Flood.
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@EtrnlVw
I suspect that when people are almost dead or even dead for a moment that there is a real likelihood of brain damage. Their brain is somehow synapsed.  And the chemicals running amok.

I would not base a theology on these experiences. 

You have this a bit backwards, the "theology" of the existence of the soul and spirit beings is not based off NDE's. Rather NDE's are simply a product of the reality that the soul exists independent of the physical body. That fact is demonstrated by an extension of conscious experience outside the confines of the human body and brain during experiences of temporary stages of death, as well as spiritual and religious observations throughout the history of the world. When the body, heart and brain shut off (whether permanently or temporary) the soul can freely experience life outside of the body. And since the soul exists even while the body is well, it can also encounter many different types of transcendental observations and experiences with that which transcends physical boundaries while still in the body.
I thank you for your comments.  Just for the record, I do not think the theology of the existence of the spirit is based on NDE.


The evidence is strongly against, if not certainly against the claim that NDE experiences are the results of brain damage. The actual effects of brain damage have absolutely zero relation to NDE's lol, damage to the brain includes having physical symptoms that coincide with such an infliction....It really only exposes your lack of clarity and research of the subject according to sources and testimonies that are not speculating to support materialism. Symptoms of brain damage do not correlate with testimonies of conscious experience outside of the body.
Where is this evidence? Can you refer to studies? 

The existence of the soul and spirit beings have long been introduced through almost every single spiritual source known to man including your Bible. At least this one feature has been universally prominent and accepted throughout the entire religious kingdom and supported even beyond that through NDE's and paranormal encounters. It isn't something weird, taboo or strictly affiliated with any single source it is a universal proposition/phenomenon. If anything, it is all that surrounds the reality of the soul that tends to become variant and contradicting.
I honestly do not know how this is supposed to demonstrate evidence. 

"Beliefs" regarding what happens to souls after death are where the boundaries of sanity start to dissipate. Despite that variance in dogma, there is a continuous, harmonious thread of knowledge that the soul exists independent of the physical body and so when a soul loses their human form they move on from this world.
It is therefore impossible that a soul remains in the grave with their mortal decomposing earthly vessel. Losing the material body is as simple as removing a mask, costume or clothing, there is no continual attachment that occurs when the body is removed from the equation.
Are you suggesting that the soul or the spirit is eternal? 


Yet strangely, Christians have adopted this unorthodox and bizarre belief that human souls will remain in the dirt until a supposed resurrection....meanwhile the rest of the spiritual, religious world continue on where spirit beings exist and permeate the entire creation of God but somehow a sect of Christians believe souls wait their demise in the grave where their own physical bodies are rotting! this is in direct contrast with evidence and the understood relationship between the physical body and the soul.
Not quite accurate.  Christians tend to say - that when a believer dies, their body or whatever is left remains on earth and that their spirit goes to be with God in Heaven.   Christians are split about what happens to the non-believer.  Some say the non-believer goes immediately to Hell to wait for the final judgment. Others say that they remain in the ground until judgment day. And then rise for the final judgment. Others say they go to heaven as well. Others say they die and immediately are annihilated.  Catholics sometimes throw purgatory into the mix. 

Believers also receive a resurrected body. So the person is not just spiritual but physical as well.  There  is a difference between the Greek and Hebrews ideas of the soul.

Tradesecret doesn't believe and won't accept any other options so the evidence of NDE's and any notions of reincarnation and alternative solutions simply will be avoided and shunned of course, they are just inferior concepts to him for whatever reasons. According to Trade, human souls must remain in the grave before they are appointed to hell or heaven (if they be so lucky).
Souls can go to those places, as they are very much apart of God's vast creation but each soul will move forward after death, there is no waiting period because again...there is no connection between a dead corpse and live soul.
Again not quite true. I described certain phenomena in the bible I did not understand that might be described as NDE. I do discount reincarnation. It makes no sense and is counter intuitive to its own reasoning.     Christians do - totally think there is a connection between the corpse and the spirit.  We believe in the resurrected body.  It is one of the reasons that Christians historically have preferred burial as opposed to cremation. 


The fear of considering concepts outside of controlled dogma is the type of garbage I was raised in most of my childhood and young adult life, the freedom of belief and logic are not pursued in strict religious squares. "You must believe this or there will be consequences"....Though, I already knew (even then) that when we die the soul leaves the physical body then and there. Not only was it innate to me but it was also clear through understanding much of the Bible and many other spiritual sources of information.
You have simply gone from one type of perceived fear to another type of fear.  Christians honestly don't believe you can scare people into the kingdom. The entire theology of election proves emphatically against that idea. Salvation BELONGS to God - not to the individual.  We pray to God to save people. We don't pray to individuals to get saved.  


The Bible has many examples of spiritual beings not only currently existing but having relations/communication with humans, why then would anyone believe that this relationship ceases at physical death? Angels, demons, saints and prophets are permitted to roam God's creation but we as souls on earth lie in the grave with a rotting corpse while every other soul outside of this planet engages life? it is a nonsensical and impossible speculation. 


27 days later

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@n8nrgmi
I don't think it is weak link. 
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@FLRW
A Zedku for FLRW.


Odd.

That GOD

Didn't

Have a smartphone.

Omniscience

And all that.

Or did Jay

Say

Beam me up daddy.

19 days later

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@Tradesecret
I don't think it is weak link. 
Neither do I. Lack of observational data makes it difficult to prove either way by modern standards. For those of you who accept the claims of history books, especially those which are endorsed by the government, you are remotely in a position to criticize the Bible for its alleged tall tales.

266 days later

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@BrotherD.Thomas
is it a weak point that many types of miracles of the bible dont happen nowadays?
First Corinthians 13:8–10: “Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.” In the KJV, the tongues “will cease.” In other words, at some point after Paul wrote 1 Corinthians, the gift of tongues would no longer be in use.

First Corinthians 12–14 is all about the proper use of spiritual gifts. Paul writes to the Corinthian church to correct the improper use of some gifts and the improper emphasis they put on certain of the more “spectacular” gifts. Right in the middle of his discussion, he speaks about the superior quality of love. Even though the Corinthian church was very gifted, they were not using their gifts in love for each other. Paul goes on to say that all of the various gifts will one day cease to function, but love will never fail. The question that many struggle with is just when these gifts will cease. Paul gives the answer in the text: “when completeness comes” (1 Corinthians 13:10).

The next question, of course, is what is the “completeness” or “the perfect” (NASB)? Essentially, there are two views:

One view, often called the “cessationist” view, is that the sign gifts were only in operation during the apostolic era to give special revelation until the completion of the New Testament. Before early Christians had the whole New Testament, they had to rely on words of knowledge, prophecy, and tongues to give them the full revelation of God. Once the church had possession of the full New Testament (the completeness), these gifts faded away as unnecessary. Faith, hope, and love continue to be in operation.

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@n8nrgmi
is it a weak point that many types of miracles of the bible dont happen nowadays?

 That's because they weren't " miracles" in those ancient days either.
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@Shila
I sure love the spiritual gift of Ice cream.

We have a bloke who comes around in a pink van selling creamy fantasy treats.

His name is Paul.

And he has a lot of Greek pals.

How's that for a miraculous coincidence?
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@zedvictor4
I sure love the spiritual gift of Ice cream.

We have a bloke who comes around in a pink van selling creamy fantasy treats.

His name is Paul.

And he has a lot of Greek pals.

How's that for a miraculous coincidence?
Ice cream does keep your tongue cool so speaking in tongues is preserved. Ice cream also helps send the cool sensation up the persons  butt you are licking. 
You being Greek and having a friend named Paul and together receiving the spiritual gift  of ice cream can only be a miraculous coincidence.