atheists say the universe could have caused itself.
Either the beginning was caused or it wasn't.....Same applies to both Universe and GOD.
atheists say the universe could have caused itself.Which atheists are these? I am uncomfortable even asserting that the universe does or doesn't have a cause.At the moment there is equal evidence that the universe caused itself that it had an external cause or that it in fact did not require any cause whatever.
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Ramshutu 182 to Double_R :I’ve never seen someone so singularly dedicated to avoiding the other persons point. Right?
Fruit_Inspector 199 :I am trying to address it, but you keep dodging the question.Ramshutu 200 :Fruit_inspector self own(25) flat out bald faced lie. The question has been answered multiple time’s:
Fruit_Inspector 199 to Ramshutu :I'm just going to assume that your answer is no, the law of noncontradiction is not a metaphysical assumption.[11]Since we can rule out option 2 (the universe caused itself) using the law of noncontradiction - which is not a metaphysical assumption - we have a basis to rule out at least one of our options without adding any metaphysical assumptions.[12]
Fruit_Inspector 203 to Ramshutu :For something to create itself, it would have to be before it was.[13] It would have to exist before it existed. Something cannot exist and not exist at the same time. Therefore, option 2 (the universe is self-created) is invalidated as a reasonable option due to the law of noncontradiction.[14]Any explanation of origins that falls under option 2 can be ruled out based on the law of noncontradiction?[15]
Fruit_Inspector 203 to Ramshutu :The universe created itself=the universe is self created"The universe came from nothing" is just another way to say the universe is self-created. That is why I said I would simplify it. My original comment was to someone else, which is why I phrased it that way. Had I known you were jumping in, I would have simplified it from the start to avoid the rambling we are now experiencing.[16]If the universe has no cause, it is eternal.[17]That is option #1. All possibilities are accounted for.
Fruit_Inspector 205 to Ramshutu :If something existed without having been caused, it would be eternal."The universe came from nothing" is just another way of saying that "the universe created itself," option #2. It also violates the the principle ex nihilo nihil fit.So this claim violates two basic logical principles.
Fruit_Inspector 205 to Ramshutu :If we are then left with options #1 and #3, it is still possible that the universe is eternal - so there is no special pleading here. To say the universe is eternal is also to say it is uncaused.
Amoranemix 209 :How does the universe starting itself violate the law of causality ?ethang5 210 :Do you know the law of causality? There needs to be a first cause.[18] A first cause cannot pre-exist itself,[19] and an effect cannot be causeless.
Amoranemix 209 :How does it violate entropy ?ethang5 210 :A closed system cannot have a decrease in entropy, And a universe that "starts" itself cannot be an open system. Do you know the laws of entropy?They are called the laws of thermodynamics and I know them.
Amoranemix 209 :How does it violate life from non-life ?ethang5 210 :Science has, for all of its existence, observed that life only comes from life. Every scientific experiment to date has confirmed this. There is not one shred of evidence that supports life from non-life.
Amoranemix 209 :Scientific laws have an area of application. A phenomon outside the law's area of application may violate that law and that is no good reason to dismiss the phenomenon as impossible.[a]The Newtonian theory of gravity, conservation of mass, most triangle laws, Ohm's law, Bohr's atomic model and the ideal gas law are all invalid under certain circumstances.[b]So contrary to what you seem to believe, that is not evidence against the possibility of the universe having created itself.[c]ethang5 210 :[a] Exactly. God is outside the area of application of the laws that govern and affect His creation. Laws cannot affect things outside their area of application.[b] I did not say the laws were invalid. A law cannot affect anything before that law begins to exist. I said a self-starter universe violates those laws.[c] They certainly are. Our universe operates on logic. Effects preceeding causes, or being causeless, and a "closed system" universe with increases in entropy are all illogical.[20]
ethang5 71 :The atheists confusion come in when he conflates the creator and his creation, irrationally thinking that both must submit to the same laws.Amoranemix 120 :It may be wrong, but that does not make believing otherwise irrational. Almost every creator is subject to some of the laws their creation is subject to, like the laws of mathematics and the laws of physics.ethang5 128 :God is a singularity. He precedes, and is the source of, all laws. Every other "creator" is composed of the same material as his creation, and is not the author of the natural laws governing his creation. God is unique that way. Believing God would be subject to laws He pre-existed and created IS irrational.Amoranemix 209 :You are merely arguing, not demonstrating, merely claiming even, that atheists are wrong. You are merely claiming (again), not even arguing, let alone demonstrating, that believing otherwise is irrational.ethang5 210 :I see you have reached the end of your argument and the conclusion you wanted is still out of sight.[21] I am demonstrating logic.[22]The words in our discussion have set meanings. Neither of us can treat them as if their meaning will be decided at a whim, or that their meaning is fluid within the discussion. The concept of "God" has a logical meaning.Requiring you to adhere to that logical meaning is not merely "arguing".[23] If you believe that your argument, and indeed the universe, do not need to operate under the laws of logic, then discussions with you will be pointless.[24]
531 days later
