when will jesus return?

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Good for you, I didn't care.
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Hebrews 1:1-3 specifically says God spoke in various ways in the past but now - speaks through Jesus.  
And Jesus says that whether it is by his mouth, or by the prophets, it is the same. Since Jesus also said the he and the Father are one [not one body, but separate personages who are completely united in thought and deed], I think that means that it does not matter whether Father or Jesus speak. It is the same.

Mormons don't generally understand the bible very much.  So I can understand your problem here
I don't accept that moniker, by the way. Beside the point. That's an awfully wide brush you paint with, my friend. I could just as easily say the same of just about any group, but I know that would be unfair to individuals who may very well understand it implicitly. I do in 4 languages. And I've lost count of then number of times having read it in its entirety. Yeah, yeah, one can say mere reading does not necessarily imply comprehension, but, again, how do you know?

 And the bible is written under the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  
And translated and transliterated numerous times by people who may not have been so inspired. Requires personal study, pondering, and prayer. Knowledge of at least one of the alleged original languages doesn't hurt.

To say baptism means submersion is not what the bible says.  
βαπτίζω - Greek, meaning immersion [in water]. I'll let you look up immersion.


I'll thank you to stop your ridicule. I will not repeat you childish language. You have no idea of that of which you jest. Until you do, just shut it. Please. What I wear is my business, my devotion, and my choice. Just as I respect others' prayer shawls, yamakas, albs, cinctures, clerical collars, etc. Just stop and keep it civil, please. Your infantile criticism says much of a lack of honest Christianity. Be a saint.
Tradesecret
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Hebrews 1:1-3 specifically says God spoke in various ways in the past but now - speaks through Jesus.  
And Jesus says that whether it is by his mouth, or by the prophets, it is the same. Since Jesus also said the he and the Father are one [not one body, but separate personages who are completely united in thought and deed], I think that means that it does not matter whether Father or Jesus speak. It is the same.
Well that is where you are incorrect.  In the past - God spoke through the prophets - but not now.  In the past he spoke through angels. But not now. In the past God spoke through dreams but not now.  Now He speaks through Jesus - his words as the apostles recorded it and understood as the NT. Daniel 9 which you obviously did not look up sets the time frame as AD 70.  That is when Revelation was "sealed up".  And that is when the NT was completed.   What you think therefore becomes irrelevant. 

Mormons don't generally understand the bible very much.  So I can understand your problem here
I don't accept that moniker, by the way. Beside the point. That's an awfully wide brush you paint with, my friend. I could just as easily say the same of just about any group, but I know that would be unfair to individuals who may very well understand it implicitly. I do in 4 languages. And I've lost count of then number of times having read it in its entirety. Yeah, yeah, one can say mere reading does not necessarily imply comprehension, but, again, how do you know?
Yeah ok. My apologies for lumping you in with the Mormons - but you did you refer to the book of Mormon.  So that's on you.   Is there a reason you did not respond to my testimony? It is as valid as yours. Surely you would agree? 

 And the bible is written under the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  
And translated and transliterated numerous times by people who may not have been so inspired. Requires personal study, pondering, and prayer. Knowledge of at least one of the alleged original languages doesn't hurt.
The bible is written by God and Man just like Jesus is both God and Man.   The human aspect is what makes it genuine from a human perspective and the divine from the divine.   Reading the bible is not the same as understanding it.  Most people can't read anyway. Try reading the book "how to read a book" - Mortimer Adler. Brilliant read. 

To say baptism means submersion is not what the bible says.  
βαπτίζω - Greek, meaning immersion [in water]. I'll let you look up immersion.
Immersion does not mean submersion.  Two different words.  One means to do with water - the other under water.  The book of Mormon - changes immersion to submersion.  Look at Mark 1: 8. It uses the term twice. Once for water and once for Spirit. How does the Christ baptize with water? Check out Acts and Pentecost. It was by a "pouring out". That is the picture that SUBMERSION misses.  It is also another reason why the Mormon church is a cult rather than a denomination. 

I'll thank you to stop your ridicule. I will not repeat you childish language. You have no idea of that of which you jest. Until you do, just shut it. Please. What I wear is my business, my devotion, and my choice. Just as I respect others' prayer shawls, yamakas, albs, cinctures, clerical collars, etc. Just stop and keep it civil, please. Your infantile criticism says much of a lack of honest Christianity. Be a saint.
I agree with Elijah. The ridiculous deserves to be ridiculed.  Like the prophets of Baal deserve ridicule - so do the prophets of Mormon.  Yet, I have often been ridiculed by the prophets of Mormonism - and their so called high priests - so it is fair to return the favor to them. 

Again, why are you ignoring my testimony?  What you wear is your own business. Just don't pretend it is some kind of present from God.  It is not Christian - it is superstitious mumbo jumbo. 

If I choose to call you out - that is my prerogative.  After all, it is the religion of Christ and his name and honour that I care about. Not yours.  



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I asked him [god] for wisdom and he gave it to me.  

How and what "wisdom" did he bestow on you? 
Stephen, LOL! 

Do you want to play this game? Ok. 

 They are serious questions . I am not playing any game. Stop avoiding the question. You have made an astounding claim.


I asked God for the wisdom to know whether the book of Mormon was the real deal or not.

Yes you have already told us that you asked for wisdom. You haven't told us how he imparted this" wisdom" to you or what it was. Stop avoiding the question  



So, when you are ready Reverend "Tradey" I am sure some here would like to hear it. Especially myself.

Hi Stephen,

as I said to secularmerlin, my above comments were intended to draw 949havoc into conversation. I do not intend to respond further until he or she responds. 

Until he responds there is with respect nothing to discuss with those outside of his or my faith.  No offence meant, this is simply an inhouse discussion. 

My arse!. This is a discussion board where you have made an extraordinary and astounding  claim that you are now refusing point blank to support or discuss.


 I asked him [god] for wisdom and he gave it to me.  

How did he give this wisdom to you and what was it?


I asked God for the wisdom to know whether the book of Mormon was the real deal or not.

So of all the questions that you could have asked your god about life and the universe this is the question that you chose?


as I said to secularmerlin, my above comments were intended to draw 949havoc into conversation.

Well we can only hope that 949havoc has the good sense to ask you the bleedin' obvious question here.


You are full of shite Reverend "Tradey" and are helpless without the interjections of your other personas.

Get well soon all three of you.


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I also agree with you and Elijah.

#78.....What some ridiculous" baloney.

All meaningless ritual-speak.


OK...So it fires your conditioned neurons

As it fires my conditioned neurons

Such  is meaning.
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I asked him [god] for wisdom and he gave it to me.  

How and what "wisdom" did he bestow on you? 
Stephen, LOL! 

Do you want to play this game? Ok. 

 They are serious questions . I am not playing any game. Stop avoiding the question. You have made an astounding claim.


I asked God for the wisdom to know whether the book of Mormon was the real deal or not.

Yes you have already told us that you asked for wisdom. You haven't told us how he imparted this" wisdom" to you or what it was. Stop avoiding the question  



So, when you are ready Reverend "Tradey" I am sure some here would like to hear it. Especially myself.

Hi Stephen,

as I said to secularmerlin, my above comments were intended to draw 949havoc into conversation. I do not intend to respond further until he or she responds. 

Until he responds there is with respect nothing to discuss with those outside of his or my faith.  No offence meant, this is simply an inhouse discussion. 

My arse!. This is a discussion board where you have made an extraordinary and astounding  claim that you are now refusing point blank to support or discuss.


 I asked him [god] for wisdom and he gave it to me.  

How did he give this wisdom to you and what was it?


I asked God for the wisdom to know whether the book of Mormon was the real deal or not.

So of all the questions that you could have asked your god about life and the universe this is the question that you chose?


as I said to secularmerlin, my above comments were intended to draw 949havoc into conversation.

Well we can only hope that 949havoc has the good sense to ask you the bleedin' obvious question here.


You are full of shite Reverend "Tradey" and are helpless without the interjections of your other personas.

Get well soon all three of you.


Your daftness is overwhelming today Stephen.  If you understood Mormon theology, you would realize that I have mirrored his basis for everything. He is now in the situation whereby he is paralyzed. If he denies my position - he denies his own. Yet as you will have noticed - his response ENTIRELY omitted to discuss that which you wanted to know. The question is why? 

I thought you wanted to play this game.  LOL! But it seems you don't even know there was a game.  

That is ok. Back to sleep Stephen. 
Tradesecret
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I also agree with you and Elijah.

#78.....What some ridiculous" baloney.

All meaningless ritual-speak.


OK...So it fires your conditioned neurons

As it fires my conditioned neurons

Such  is meaning.

yep
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Yet as you will have noticed - his response ENTIRELY omitted to discuss that which you wanted to know. .............. it seems you don't even know there was a game.  


So now you have played your game with 949havoc and believe yourself to have been the victor how about that you now address the questions I asked you that he failed to ask you.


 I asked him [god] for wisdom and he gave it to me.  

How did he impart to you this wisdom and what was it?

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Christ knows when he is coming back.
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Christ knows when he is coming back.

Well not if the bible is to be believed, Deb. 

Matthew 24:36

English Standard Version


No One Knows That Day and Hour
36 “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

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Sorry you think that.  I don't use faith as a standard. I use reason.  Atheism is based on faith.  I give plenty of reasons for my particular view  of the world. And you do too. But it is still faith. Reason requires faith.  I never just resort to the nonsense - that it is just faith. 

Pedantry it is. If you want to say reason requires faith and create a definition whereby that is correct fine but reason backed up by evidence is still different than religious faith which is divorced from the need for evidence.
No you are missing the point.  Holiness is acting in accordance with right. This is quite different to what the atheist does.  No offence - but it comes back to the definition of right or good. 
Right and good are subjective terms that require a goal. If you personally define good as both believing in and acting on the moral dictates of a supernatural historical fiction then firstly I find less utility in that than the definition "doing things that improve the human condition" then I guess you are pedantically correct again but I am deeply unimpressed with that kind of goodness. Holiness as you describe it doesn't strike me as a positive trait.
Just like atheism sounds like superstition to others.  

Not believing in magic is superstitious in the same way not eating corn flakes is breakfast or not collecting stamps is a hobby.
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So what do the mainstream (and non-Christian) scholars say about all this? Surprisingly very little – of substance anyway. Only Bart Ehrman and Maurice Casey have thoroughly attempted to prove Jesus’ historical existence in recent times. Their most decisive point? The Gospels can generally be trusted – after we ignore the many, many bits that are untrustworthy – because of the hypothetical (i.e. non-existent) sources behind them. Who produced these hypothetical sources? When? What did they say? Were they reliable? Were they intended to be accurate historical portrayals, enlightening allegories, or entertaining fictions?
Ehrman and Casey can’t tell you – and neither can any New Testament scholar. Given the poor state of the existing sources, and the atrocious methods used by mainstream Biblical historians, the matter will likely never be resolved. In sum, there are clearly good reasons to doubt Jesus’ historical existence – if not to think it outright improbable.

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That is when Revelation was "sealed up".  And that is when the NT was completed.  
And that, as you say, is incorrect. Was there a New Testament when John completed Revelation? No, not yet. I know the verse declaring that no one should alter that book. That book was Revelation, not the entire Bible, which was yet centuries into the future. Come on , you know this.  So you say God no longer reveals to prophets. Which God? God the Father? That appears to be your interpretation, by your instance on Hebrews. So, God, the Son, Jesus Christ. And he said to his disciples that after his departure, he would send the Holy Ghost, the God, Holy Spirit, to speak to man. I, ay least, acknowledge prophets beyond the NT. I acknowledge prophets, today, and whether the inspiration to them, and to myself, frankly, for affairs that concern me, personally, bot not for the world at large because I do not have that responsibility, is by God the Father, Jesus Christ, of the Holy Ghost, it is revelation, and it matters not, according to Jesus, who is the inspiriator; it is all as if from the mouth of God, the Father.

And thus, the Book of Mormon. Another testament of Jesus Christ. Another scripture. If you read it, cover to cover, and applied the challenge therein to find the truth of it, you would know. There's more. Gods do not finish speaking to man. Never have, never will.
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Hi man. 

Would you say that you are currently in the
(  TOP 10,000 )  OF ALL TIME. At scripture translations ?

Yes ?
No ?
Maybe  ?

Thanks.  

949havoc
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I have no way to measure, but, venturing a guess, probably not.
What I do have, and even this does not even measure in the top 100,000, maybe not even in the top ten million of all time [your qualifier], is the means to have a more proper interpretation. This, I have already explained. I ask the source.
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What about if we get a bunch of ummmm,  top scholars if you will, and they give there interpretation of each scripture. 
And maybe ( dumb it down a little.*)  
Then compile all of the interps .  Find the " most popular " interp
Then scrub out scripture and replace it with a eazy-2-read bible verse meaning. 
You know what i mean Hav?

Instead of the prince John james or what ever it is version , have a " tell it like it is " version. 

Now i know over time that people have done and  do this and have been killed for such things but. 
But. 

I would buy a. Bible that scriptures have been replaced buy . 
100 bishops true meaning of a scripture.
Or.
The .   ( 1000 cardinals version  )    scriptures replaced with eazy to follow what they think it means. 
And COMPILE. 
It has to be better then the current versions.   
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Imagine 
A 10 popes version. 
Ten popes give there meaning of each scipture. 
COMPILE.  AND BAMMMMMMMMMMMMM.  
The ultimate 

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In this bible of mine. I have gone through and scrubbed out every word ( JESUS )  and replaced it with ( God ) 
TO SIMPLIFY.  

Straight forward.

 

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We need to start arsking people high up in the jesus game simple straight forward question. 
So when someone asks.   
When will jesus return?  
We can say. Well hear is what  
314 priests.
44 cardinals. 
Half a dozon or so arch bishops. 
188 biblical scholars 
 

say

We could narrow this bitch down to a
( jesus will return  on a sunday Afternoon around  4 .33 pm est time to 4.40 pm est time. 
June the 15th 
2031.

 
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Overcast ?
Correct. 
949havoc
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Find the " most popular " interp
Who decides what's most popular? A vote? A poll? What are their qualifications of scholarship? Isn't that just about exactly how we have a Bible at all, today, performed over a few hundred years after the first millennium, so, already a thousand years after just the latest events occurred?

And, that being the case, what of repeating an action, expecting different results? Isn't that time for the white coats from lalaland?

Need I reply to the rest?
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But, to play your game, I'll give it you in two simple verses, since on their effect "hang the law and the prophets."

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Matt 22: 37, 39

If we truly kept these two commandments, every word of them, we are already keeping the rest. If we're only keeping one, we're breaking both; the same effect as keeping none.

Tell me what other commandment, parable, or psalm is not accomplished by the keeping of these two, alone?
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Leviticus 11:10

But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is detestable to you.

Leviticus 19:28

You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the Lord.

Judges 1:19

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

Psalms 137:9

A blessing on anyone who seizes your babies and smashes them against a rock!

Leviticus 18

The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘I am the Lord your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the Lord your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord.
6 “‘No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the Lord.
7 “‘Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.
8 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; that would dishonor your father.
9 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.
10 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter; that would dishonor you.
11 “‘Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father’s wife, born to your father; she is your sister.
12 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s sister; she is your father’s close relative.
13 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your mother’s sister, because she is your mother’s close relative.
14 “‘Do not dishonor your father’s brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.
15 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son’s wife; do not have relations with her.
16 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your brother’s wife; that would dishonor your brother.
17 “‘Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.
18 “‘Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.
19 “‘Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.
20 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor’s wife and defile yourself with her.
21 “‘Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.
22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.
23 “‘Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.
24 “‘Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the foreigners residing among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.
29 “‘Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the Lord your God.

Exodus 21:20 and 21

20 Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.
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Nice response man. 
Nice post. 

▪°•▪°•▪°•▪°•▪°• 


The most popular is decided by the most popular response.  
So we ask 74 priests what they think this one scripture means. ( in layman ) 
lets say 30 or 40 priests  out of 74 think it means ( __________ this __________and that________ . 
Then simply scratch out the scripture and replace it with what that largest number of higher level theists think the actual meaning is. 

That first commandment, Commandment # 1 .  It is beautiful.
Very well thought out.

Why It must have taken a few decades to come up with that one alone. 


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 Gods do not finish speaking to man. Never have, never will.


English Standard Version
Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” Genesis 6:3

Sounds like total abandonment to me. Except when he wants to impart unknown "wisdom" to the Reverend "Tradey" Tradsecrete, then he's there in a flash.


Tradesecrete wrote:  I asked him [god] for wisdom and he gave it to me.  ..............
 I prayed to the Holy Spirit for wisdom and the Holy Spirit told me - "don't trust the book of Mormon - it is a fake.".#53