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@Fruit_Inspector
And what happens when no one wants to volunteer to pick up trash and clean up sewage? We can't pay anyone to do it so...
Are you saying that you are to good to do that kind of work?
Work is like a sandwich
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In this analogy, you don't know the contents of your sandwich. However, with jobs, people know what a job entails much more than they know whether or not a sandwich is poisoned so they pick the hard jobs to get paid the most.
If this analogy were true to life then there are not enough sandwiches to go around by design and if you refuse to eat a sandwich (or if you are not offered one) you will starve to death. You do not have a choice. You cannot refuse whatever sandwich happens to be available and not just for fear of starvation but because of the social stigma that goes along with not having a sandwich. People will call you selfish and lazy if you don't have a sandwich even if you try to eat a sandwich and none are available. It is considered your fault that no one offered you a sandwich even though as I said there are not enough sandwiches for everyone by design.
If someone offers you $5 to eat one of your sandwiches, you have an incentive to make more sandwiches, feeding more people, and getting yourself rich in the process.
This is not the case for most people. Most people are expected to make sandwiches all day long as fast as they can and are played the same tiny fraction of the total profit even if they do somehow manage to push their bodies past their ordinary limits and produce more sandwiches than their quota.
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@secularmerlin
Are you saying that you are to good to do that kind of work?
No. I asked a specific and reasonable question given the selfish tendencies of humans.
What happens when no one wants to volunteer to pick up trash and clean up sewage? We can't pay anyone to do it so...
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@Fruit_Inspector
Are you saying that you are to good to do that kind of work?No.
Then grow up and do your share of the dishes.
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@secularmerlin
Then grow up and do your share of the dishes.
No, I don't want to. All my needs are met so I'm going to spend my time playing music and reading books. I'm not going to pump any sewage. What are you going to do about it?
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@secularmerlin
answer the question he asked.
What happens when no one wants to volunteer to pick up trash and clean up sewage? We can't pay anyone to do it so...
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@Fruit_Inspector
No, I don't want to. All my needs are met so I'm going to spend my time playing music and reading books. I'm not going to pump any sewage. What are you going to do about it?
What are you going to do about it? Don't you shame people who don't want to work now? People that live off their families or the government? You don't respect those people now and you still wouldn't. What would change is that it really would be up to them rather than coercion.
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@BigPimpDaddy
What happens when no one wants to volunteer to pick up trash and clean up sewage? We can't pay anyone to do it so...
You can grow up and do your share too.
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@secularmerlin
Don't you shame people who don't want to work now? People that live off their families or the government?
I don't care about my reputation. What do I need that for? All my fulfillment comes from my pursuit of music and knowledge. I don't care what people say or think about me. And I'm still not going to pump any sewage. Now what?
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@Fruit_Inspector
I don't care about my reputation. What do I need that for? All my fulfillment comes from my pursuit of music and knowledge. I don't care what people say or think about me. And I'm still not going to pump any sewage. Now what?
Now no one will respect you or treat you like an adult. That is what we will do. It is how we treat those with this attitude now. Is it so strange to think that I'm ok with shaming people who refuse to grow up but I don't think they deserve a death sentence by slow starvation for refusing to grow up?
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@secularmerlin
Now no one will respect you or treat you like an adult. That is what we will do.
Great! So all my needs are met. I get to do all the things I love doing. And you will be stuck doing the dirty work that I don't want to do. Maybe this isn't such a bad plan after all.
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@secularmerlin
In general corperations don't invent products
You have a marxist view of innovation. Hint: you also confuse it with funding, which is, itself, marxist. While I accept that there is a cost to innovation [invention, if you will], it certainly is not the government that is the braintrust of innovation. Nor does government truly produce anything, even in marxism, just because government owns business in that economic model does not mean that government is the new idea generator. If it were, we'd have far less issues in business just because of the intervention of government in business. There's a reason why the Constitution's Article I, section 8, granting powers to Congress, has little documented involvement of Congress in private enterprise. Not saying the government abides by the limitations, because they don't. There's just no constitutional justification for their involvement in private enterprise. Please try to understand the distinction between innovation and funding. The proof? If government is the braintrust of private enterprise innovation, why don't they already have the expertise they claim they need to investigate for legislative purpose; the ONLY reason why Congress should investigate anything other than impeachment of a federal officer?
By the way, by Supreme Court precedent, Congress is supposed to announce their legislative purpose for any investigation they conduce, other than for impeachment, but they don't even do that. Tell me, what is the specific legislative purpose Congress has announced for the January 6 investigation?
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@Fruit_Inspector
Great! So all my needs are met. I get to do all the things I love doing. And you will be stuck doing the dirty work that I don't want to do. Maybe this isn't such a bad plan after all.
This is what employment has done to us. We think we cannot even justify taking care of ourselves. This is what I mean. When you think of dirty work as undesirable instead of just another necessary chore. Social interaction would still exist and your social standing would be in the toilet if you refuse to help clean the toilets. I think you underestimate how powerful social pressure can be.
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@949havoc
Government grants and military technology has provided most of the technology used by the current internet moguls. Jeff Bazos didn't invent computers or the internet. He had the idea to sell books on the internet using computers. This was not a worthless idea but it was not a billion dollar idea or one that no one else could have come up with. Billionaires are not special they are rich.
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@secularmerlin
Billionaires are not special they are rich.
and yet, you admit
Jeff Bazos... had the idea to sell books on the internet using computers. This was not a worthless idea
Very true, and somebody else didn't have the idea, particularly no one in government. Why? Jeff Bezos is not only rich; he's innovative, and not a part of government at all. Private enterprise guy. Have any other examples? That one is a fail.
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@949havoc
somebody else didn't have the idea,
We do not know that. We only know he capitalized on the idea in a way that made him wealthy. His success would have been impossible without a loan from his parents. Imagine if everyone was equally able to innovate even if they are not from a wealthy background. Imagine the art poetry and technology we might now have if every mad bastard was allowed to follow their dreams!
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@secularmerlin
This is what employment has done to us. We think we cannot even justify taking care of ourselves. This is what I mean. When you think of dirty work as undesirable instead of just another necessary chore.
An employment mindset is not what makes pumping sewage undesirable. It's the human feces that does that. And that's true no matter your economic system.
Social interaction would still exist and your social standing would be in the toilet if you refuse to help clean the toilets. I think you underestimate how powerful social pressure can be.
Why should I care if people shame me? Again, all my fulfillment comes from my hobbies. Social interaction and status pales in comparison to freely pursuing my passions! And I'm going to tell everyone else that they also don't have to pump sewage because you are the responsible one who will do it for us.
If social shaming is the worst I'll receive to avoid dirty work and still have my needs fully met, I'll take it! I hope that you find fulfillment in waste management! I really think you'll do great at it.
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@secularmerlin
His success would have been impossible without a loan from his parents.
And? So what? Without a loan from his parents, he'd have generated a business plan to present to a bank, or the SBA, for a loan. Do you know what a business plan for such purpose consists of? Probably not: more than the idea. I've done it myself, successfully, so, I know it's possible, and Jeff Bezos is certainly more adept at innovation than I am. Like I've agued in another thread, to you, the universe will get out of the way of someone with ambition, a plan, and ability to execute the plan. A goal setter, and a goal achiever.
You cannot, in all your marxism, take that away from me, nor Jeff Bezos, nor anyone else with those credentials I've just identified. Try.
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@Fruit_Inspector
It is silly to think that we shouldn't pursue the idea of ending employment because it might make the world dirty. Capitalism combined with industry has lead to a far dirtier world than ever before because creating pollution is profitable. You seem to fear what had already happened under the system you endorse.
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@949havoc
he'd have generated a business plan to present to a bank, or the SBA, for a loan.
Imagine if the same opportunity were presented to everyone not just the Jeffs of the world.
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@949havoc
You cannot, in all your marxism, take that away from me,
I'm not trying to take anything from anyone so long as they didn't get it through human exploitation. I don't want your car or your tv and I don't want to take you ambition or your goal oriented attitude. What I want is to give the means of production to everyone.
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@secularmerlin
It is silly to think that we shouldn't pursue the idea of ending employment because it might make the world dirty.
You sold me on it. Now I don't have to be successful to pursue my dreams and have my needs met. I also don't have to do any dirty work because someone else will do it. You can be responsible and make sure the sewage gets cleaned for our community. Feel free to shame me, as long as I can pursue my passions unhindered.
Everyone! Let's end employment! We can pursue our dreams with no dirty work because secularmerlin is responsible and will take care of waste management!
LET'S END EMPLOYMENT!
LET'S END EMPLOYMENT!
LET'S END EMPLOYMENT!
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@Fruit_Inspector
People already live as you suggest now. They are called CEOs, bankers, land lords etc. They are not workers and so they do not do the dirty work. I am not suggesting an end to work. I am suggesting the beugoisie lend a hand.
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@Fruit_Inspector
And what happens when no one wants to volunteer to pick up trash and clean up sewage? We can't pay anyone to do it so...
I tell you what I wouldn't do is threaten them with homelessness and death by starvation.
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@secularmerlin
And what happens when no one wants to volunteer to pick up trash and clean up sewage? We can't pay anyone to do it so...I tell you what I wouldn't do is threaten them with homelessness and death by starvation.
It seems the only repercussion is some social shaming then because the physical needs of the individual will be met regardless. And if that shaming fails to motivate, you will have only the responsible people doing the dirty work while the irresponsible people enjoy both leisure and fully met physical needs. That will surely breed resentment.
The success of your system then is almost entirely dependent upon the intrinsic motivation of all members to willingly participate in the dirty work of society. Again, why should someone care about social shaming when they have no physical needs and if it frees them to pursue their passions unhindered? And there will undoubtedly be others who will also choose hobbies over dirty work. They can create their own social network and still enjoy the material provisions of the community.
So is social shaming the only motivational tool you have to coerce people into doing dirty work?
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@Fruit_Inspector
So is social shaming the only motivational tool you have to coerce people into doing dirty work?
Here is the problem. You think people will have to he coerced and I think it is wrong to coerce people.
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@secularmerlin
Here is the problem. You think people will have to he coerced and I think it is wrong to coerce people.Then why are you suggesting we socially shame people to persuade them to do something they don't want to do?
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@Fruit_Inspector
Then why are you suggesting we socially shame people to persuade them to do something they don't want to do?
I am suggesting that this will happen. The same way we socially pressure people we live with to do the dishes now. I'm not sure it is morally correct but it is better than coercing them with the threat of homelessness and starvation enforced by the threat of police violence which is our current system. Don't let the inability to he perfect be the enemy of improvement.
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@secularmerlin
I'm not sure it is morally correct but it is better than coercing them with the threat of homelessness and starvation enforced by the threat of police violence which is our current system.
I'm not sure why you keep making comparisons. Your system should be able to stand on its own merit, rather than just needing to be better than another system. I'm simply trying to understand how our new society is going to work.
The problem I see is that there is no real obligation for anyone to do the dirty work outside of intrinsic motivation and peer pressure.
That's it.
There is no actual way to make people help with waste management. You can only try to persuade someone to do it, but you can't make them. And if you have an entire society, there are bound to be a group of people who don't see the common good as convincing enough to pump sewage.
In essence, you are rewarding the lazy by giving them the benefits of having the dirty work done without actually having to do any dirty work. And that breeds resentment in those who are doing this work. The common good is only so fulfilling when you have to take out your neighbor's trash, but he doesn't have to take out yours.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Your system should be able to stand on its own merit, rather than just needing to be better than another system.
Actually it only needs to be better than the current system and it would be preferable by definition.
The problem I see is that there is no real obligation for anyone to do the dirty work outside of intrinsic motivation and peer pressure.
No such obligation exists now. What if no one wants a job doing dirty work? What if you cannot pay them enough to do it? How would you force them too if the money you can afford to offer isn't enough? I don't think I have any problems you don't also have to contend with.
if you have an entire society, there are bound to be a group of people who don't see the common good as convincing enough to pump sewage.
Yes in our society they are called bankers, CEOs, land lords etc.
In essence, you are rewarding the lazy by giving them the benefits of having the dirty work done without actually having to do any dirty work. And that breeds resentment in those who are doing this work. The common good is only so fulfilling when you have to take out your neighbor's trash, but he doesn't have to take out yours.
This is already the situation between the working class and the ruling class.