Cowboy Bebop: Live Action (NETFLIX's Revisionist Diversity Syncopation.) [SPOILERS]

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Athias
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Well, I recently got through NETFLIX's live action interpretation of the acclaimed 1998 series "Cowboy Bebop." Cowboy Bebop is my all-time favorite anime, and I'd been anticipating the live-action portrayal since it was announced several years ago. I have some mixed feelings about this now that I've seen it for myself, so I'll start off with some Pro's:

1. The setting, lighting, colors, and tone of the live action are gorgeous. If there was any justice done to this series, it would be to the aforementioned. Whether it was the Church that made its illustrious appearance at the end of the season, or New Tijuana in the beginning of the season, the theme park that served as setting for Spike and Mad Pierrot's showdown, or the inside of the Bebop, all were gorgeous. I even liked how they did the intro, the one accompanied by "Tank." I have absolutely no complaints.

2. The Music, Style, and Pacing were quite good. As I understand it, Yoko Kanno reprised her role as composer for this live-action adaptation which explains the reason the music was on point, and quite timely. Stylistically, I really liked it as well. I've loved the film-noir genre since I was a kid (e.g. "Detour," "the Killers," "Touch of Evil," etc.) And admittedly I have a bias for it. I also liked how the series was competent  in its capacity to alternate between comedic, dark, and poignant moods.

3. Mustafa Shakir. Now, I understand that as always, especially as it concerns live-action adaptations of beloved anime, there's an an issue of "-washing." Whether it was "Asian-washing" Spike Spiegel, or "Mexican-washing" Faye Valentine, or "white-washing" Edward, or even "Black-washing" Jet. (Thank goodness, Ein was spared.) And to some extent, I understand given that washing the characters come off more as pandering than anything integral or organic. With that said however, I never understood the online controversy with Jet's "Black-washing." Aficionados of the 1998 anime, especially the English Dub, with a bit of research would know that Jet was voiced by a so-called "Black" man. And Mustafa Shakir does a great job not only mimicking Jet's mannerisms, but his voice as well--even the inflections. Shakir's rendition of Jet's character is probably my favorite portrayal of the whole adaptation (second would be Edward in spite of her brief appearance.)

Now for the con's:

Vicious: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, nononononononononononononononononononononononononono! NO! No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, NO! What the hell were they thinking with this? Rather than the stoic, enigmatic, soft-spoken, serpent-like character of his anime incarnation, the live-action decides to flip the script, and portray Vicious as an overly-talkative, overly emotional, Wal-Mart version of Hugh Grant who's preoccupied with his father's approval. No, NO! This is one of the most egregious faux-pas of the live-action. I wanted to laugh, but I was so annoyed with this portrayal, I couldn't.

To be continued... (and trust me there's more!)
Athias
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Continued:

Con's:

"Fearless": I actually understand what they were trying to do with this. Not only was it an attempt to synchronize Spike and Vicious' connection, but it was also an attempt to mythologize him, and make his backstory more ambiguous. In other words, make him a bit of an urban legend--hence, "Fearless." But this was entirely unnecessary. The dichotomy in Spike's alter egos could've been handled with competent storytelling (e.g. the 1998 anime's brilliant metaphors with Spike's left and right eyes) not lazy exposition. Watching the 1998 anime would naturally lead one to believe that Spike was "fearless." They didn't have to give him that name to show this. Spike's noteworthy fatalist philosophy would have more than sufficed.

Lesbian-izing Faye Valentine: Yes, I have a problem with this. Because it was clearly pandering to the LGBTQ representation nuts. Faye in the original was never implied to be a lesbian (unless one counts her kissing Edward in "Hard Luck Woman" which was clearly meant to be comedic.) She was shown to have been attracted to Gren ("Jupiter Jazz") Whitney Hagas Matsumoto ("My Funny Valentine,") who rather than being a love interest, had a sex change and served as a "mother-figure" to Faye, Andy (Cowboy Funk) and Spike (as early as "Honky Tonk Women.") Instead, they have her engage lesbian coitus with some random female mechanic--couldn't be more obvious--who "surprise, surprise," knows more about the subject than Bebop's resident mechanic, Jet Black. The live-action made a clear point to not sexualize Faye by having her wear her red jacket over her torso, as opposed to letting it hang off her elbows, and opted to have wear leather hot pants over  full-length pants, instead of just the hot pants she wore in the anime incarnation. Yes, they made a point to not sexualize her, except to Lesbians. And while I did for the most part enjoy Daniella Pineda's portrayal of Faye, especially in moments of comic relief*, I get particularly annoyed when the integrity of a character is altered/compromised purely for the sake of pandering.

Role Reversals: Yet another thing by which I was annoyed in the live-action adaptation. In their attempts to revise Faye's perceived "damsel" role in the anime incarnation, the live action decided to switch gears and have Faye be the rescuer, and Spike be the damsel. I'm annoyed most by the fact that there were many instances in the anime series where Faye has either helped or attempted to come to the assistance of Spike (e.g. "Gateway Shuffle," "Waltz for Venus," "Pierrot Le Fou," etc.) Instead two of the times where Spike saves Faye ("Ballad of Fallen Angels" and "Brain Scratch") are replaced with Faye saving Spike. Clearly, agenda-driven pandering.

To be continued...

(Don't fret, there's more. I will get to Julia and the last episode.)

16 days later

Athias
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Continued (I apologize for the delay):

Julia: First, let me start off with probably the one pro--it didn't bother me that the show's creators made her a lounge singer. And it could somewhat be tethered to the 1998 anime when Spike hears her humming at the end of "Ballad of Fallen Angels" as well as her interactions with Gren in "Jupiter Jazz." With that said, if there was anything more agenda-driven, it would be Julia. I read somewhere that it was stated, and I'm paraphrasing, "NETFLIX fixes Julia." I mention this because it allows me to assume that the showrunners of this 2021 live-action adaptation may have had issues with Julia's being the driving force behind Spike and Vicious's conflict as well as the object over which they fought. She stopped being this wonderful enigma on which these characters' motivations were based, but instead this damsel, of which there wasn't the slightest hint in the show's anime incarnation. I suppose that the show runners thought that they could somehow balance this with that monstrosity of an ending where Julia seizes control of the Red Dragon syndicate by shooting Spike and holding Vicious hostage. She's now the leader because like everything in marriage, property is commutative. BUT THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS IN GANGS! If anything, leadership would have passed to one of Vicious's capo's, or a rival syndicate would have absorbed the Red Dragon into their own. Even Julia's machinations which led to this monstrosity made no sense, i.e. her hatching some plot with the sex-changed Mao Yenrai for a larger percentage of control over the syndicate, a percentage Julia, as wife, would be in absolutely no position to offer. And with Mao gone, who supports her claim? Are the grunts really supposed to just take Julia's word (considering she's never really been involved in any syndicate management) without any sight or spoken word from Vicious himself? Why is her role being taken in this direction to begin with? This is--and excuse my profanity--SO FUCKING STUPID! And what irks me more was that this monstrosity of a plot was associated with perhaps Cowboy Bebop's most beautiful and compelling scene from Ballad of Fallen Angels. As I had mentioned earlier, one of the finer points in this live-action were the sets/settings, especially the attention to detail. And what could've been a great adaptation of an especially visually stunning scene was reduce to an SJW hack-job.

As for the rest, I originally had more to say, like with the unnecessary sex changes, Gren, etc. but after venting on the botched plots, nothing else really matters. See you, Space Cowboys. I'll let you live with that burden.

To be continued, maybe...
whiteflame
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@Athias
Wanted to wait until more of your thoughts were posted before I addressed them.

I think we're agreed on most everything here. Both in terms of how it looks and sounds, the series fits pretty well, even if there's some jank here and there. I don't like that the intro sequence is full of spoilers, something that sets it very much apart from the anime where the intro was used to show off some of the animation and to symbolically represent many of the characters. It's hard to match the anime Tank! intro and I wasn't expecting that here, but the lack of focus on the characters, replacing it largely with scattered moments from the series, made it difficult to enjoy.

We're agreed on Mustafa Shakir, who not only absolutely embodied the character to the best extent of any of the main cast (too early to say with Edward, though I think the backlash against her portrayal was... a little too big considering we only got the single scene), but added to it in ways that I appreciated greatly. I know not everyone liked the fact that he has a daughter, but the whole fatherly Jet aspect really worked for me, especially that scene where he attends her recital remotely as a hologram and Spike is fighting goons in the background while he's dancing it up in the foreground. I do think they somewhat neutered his story by having his partner be the only obviously corrupt cop (in the anime, the police force because it was basically all corrupt, which put him in stark contrast to his former fellows), but his performance was spectacular.

As for the cons... yeah, you'll get no disagreement from me.

Vicious was the single worst part of this series, and that's saying something. I'm honestly not sure if you included enough "no's" to truly represent how bad of a move this was. In that anime, he's a phantom who haunts Spike, appearing at discrete moments to instill a real sense of dread into the series. In this, he's on screen so much that any enigmatic aspects of his character vanished in the first two episodes. He's whiny, got his position solely due to his father being what he was, and seems far too emotional to be the cold, merciless killer that the anime portrayed. It's especially frustrating because he's in every episode, even recruiting Mad Pierrot, meaning that his presence pervades almost every story beat of the show. Part of what I liked so much about the anime was that the events of the show would occur due to the cast's choices and mistakes more often than due to some kind of external meddling, but this takes so much agency away from them by making them targets of the Syndicate (or Vicious, specifically). They're reacting rather than acting.

I didn't so much mind the "Fearless" aspect, though it weirded me out every time they called Spike by that nickname (though Spike was actually his pseudonym and Fearless was the original name he discarded... what was his original name, anyway?). It's a boring way to do what they did much better in the anime, as you said, I just didn't care too much about it. More of a missed opportunity to be subtle (there are a lot of those) than anything else.

Don't care so much about the role reversals, either, though it does take the wind out of some characters' sails. Pandering though it might have been, it's a different take on the story and I don't mind that. I do mind that it disrupts the flow of the stories it's telling and takes away opportunities to really dig into Spike as a character and engage more in what separates him from Vicious. In that regard, though, Julia gets in the way far more often and in more glaring ways than Faye ever did. It is incredibly frustrating that she is turned into a character with no power whatsoever (in the anime, it was hinted that she was as much of a badass as Spike and Vicious in her own right), only for her to turn around and steal the spotlight at the end with next to no warning. Considering the sheer amount of background they give to Vicious and Spike's relationship in this adaptation, it's frustrating that the closure we get (if you can call it that) comes from Julia's gun.

That's not to say that I liked this portrayal of Faye. I personally don't mind lesbianizing her, nor was I perturbed by the changes to her outfit. What I did mind was that the lesbian aspects of her character were delivered in a scene that was more eye candy than anything else, and what's more, they were with a character we and she had just met rather than the result of any kind of built up relationship. I was frustrated that they almost entirely removed any reference to her being a femme fatale when she is one of anime's greatest examples, though I was far more upset that they almost entirely nixed her motivations. No reference to her gambling addiction. No reference to her being massively in debt due to medical expenses incurred while she was frozen and conned onto her thereafter. We get some allusions regarding her interest in her own background, and while those were good, we lose so much of what makes Faye Faye.

And I think that's generally my biggest problem with the series. They named these characters after their anime counterparts, but so many of these characters aren't anything like their anime selves. Gren isn't Gren in almost any way, having been turned from a soldier who suffered the ill effects of a drug and fights against the Syndicate into a sassy gay lackey. Annie isn't a motherly figure running a small store who Spike turns to very occasionally, but a large club owner who effectively runs an underground operation and helps the characters out every other episode. Julia isn't a Syndicate member, but is singer who found herself locked into a relationship with Vicious out of fear. And when it comes to characters that don't appear, the live action show only pays them lip service, like including Cowboy Andy on a list of outlaws rather than including him in an amazing comedic rivalry with Spike. The show is just full of missed opportunities built on trying to shake things up that just go nowhere, and the runtime is often padded with extras that do nothing to add to the story. It just feels like a simultaneously bloated and anemic story, with each coming up in all the wrong places.

I've already talked about Julia a bit, and I agree with what you've said of her. For me, what's most frustrating is the combination of her being a damsel in distress for 95% of the show and being someone who actively seeks power for the remaining 5%, the latter coming out of nowhere. For such an enigmatic and interesting character from the anime, she really loses a step when they shine a light on her the whole way through. I know much of this story doesn't follow the anime (she's certainly not with Vicious over so much of the story there), but part of what makes her so compelling in the anime is that we barely know her when she first arrives on the scene with a gun to Spike's head. With all the background they gave us, there was an opportunity to make her compelling in a different way, but they didn't manage it, especially when her complaint with Spike was that he should have fought his way into the Syndicate (likely an impossible task at any point in the series) to rescue her sooner. As for taking control of the Syndicate, even if we assume she could do it this way, she gave no indication as to her ambitions earlier. Throwing in a character trait at the last minute, even if it's borne out of not wanting to be afraid anymore, requires more than just a couple of throw-away lines, especially since it will obviously put her in the crosshairs of a lot of dangerous people. Before this scene, the most she'd done is plot to remove Vicious from the picture, which at least made some sense since he was so abusive. This may have been pandering, but I'd be fine with pandering if it was actually built up meaningfully. This was just trashy, and while it gave me some hope for a second season that would solidly diverge from the anime's plot, that's all it did (and the second season was cancelled anyway, so that's not happening). 

8 days later

Athias
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@whiteflame
Wonderfully stated--all of it. Your gripes very much mirror my own. Let me just remark that if this series were a standalone, of course the last ten to fifteen minutes being purged from all planes of existence, I would have very much liked it (though that lesbian scene with the mechanic would still have left a sour taste.) It's these sort of adaptations which vex me most: not the ones which one can see will be bad from a mile away--*cough* "Death Note" *cough*--but the ones which squander the adaptation's potential (e.g. this and "Ghost in the Shell (2017).") I don't mind changes to the story conveyed by the anime on which they are based; I've actually seen adaptations which in some spots improve on the story (e.g. "Rurouni Kenshin: The Beginning & Final--which were really good in my opinion); as long as the core themes are preserved, changes in service of said themes would be met with better reception. And while you may not share my opinion that these changes to the story in the Cowboy Bebop: Live Action were necessarily "agenda driven," I still maintain that these changes (i.e. lesbianizing Faye, sex-changes to Whitney H.M., Mao Yenrai, Bob, etc, Julia's coup in the Red Dragon syndicate, the sassy gay lackey Gren (lmao) etc.) were meant propagate certain notions by using a beloved property like Cowboy Bebop. But I suppose it doesn't matter much at this point. Like you referenced, the consumer base rewarded this pandering with a canceled second season.
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@Athias
I agree. I think the effort to make adaptations is built on a desire to capture nostalgic fans, which works to the point of getting someone in the door, but fails miserably if the adaptation is not suitably faithful to the original. It's been a struggle, to say the least, for any studio to adapt a live action version of any anime (the only one that comes to mind as well done is Rurouni Kenshin, as you said, though I will say that I was surprised at how decent the recent Bleach movie was), and I don't think that's going to change. With the recent effort to adapt One Piece, in particular, I just don't see studios getting this right - I mean, that series thrives on cartoony visuals, I can't fathom how they convert them to live action without it looking awful.

And therein lies the rub with this specific kind of adaptation (anime to live action): it really can't be faithful to the original. I think what these creators don't understand is that the medium matters. It's part of the reason why so many Disney live action remakes of animated classics just don't work. You lose something in the translation. The expressiveness is necessarily limited. The vibrant coloring is diminished. There's less fluidity to the motions. And all of that is just for anime that doesn't utilize aspects that defy basic human physiology. This could have theoretically been a passable adaptation even in live action, but it would still be weak compared with the original. Of course, it wasn't passable at all, and that has everything to do with their willingness to bastardize so many of the characters, themes and narratives from which they took the names and basic boiler plates. I agree that it would have been better if it had been it's own thing, but then this probably never would have been made in the first place... and we'd probably be better for it.
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@whiteflame
Well stated. I don't really have much to add except that I, too, thought that the recent Bleach Live Action was quite good. It was charming and funny and left the impression of a Bleach property. It felt like I was watching Bleach. If only these studios would understand that these changes are okay here and there so long as the audience is left with the impression that they're watching the property on which the adaptation is based.

And I agree as well that the prospects of a One Piece Live Action (though limited as my knowledge on the series as a whole may be) are looking bleak. I'm sure the same is true for another beloved anime of mine: Yu Yu Hakusho which NETFLIX plans to release next year, I believe.
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I, too, thought that the recent Bleach Live Action was quite good. It was charming and funny and left the impression of a Bleach property. It felt like I was watching Bleach.
I was actually pretty delighted with it. Went in expecting to hate on it, and found myself enjoying the experience quite a bit. Thought they had solid takes on Rukia and Renji, in particular.

If only these studios would understand that these changes are okay here and there so long as the audience is left with the impression that they're watching the property on which the adaptation is based.
I think capturing the spirit of the anime is something that these studios aren't really interested in doing for the most part, which boggles the mind. They're more interested in triggering nostalgia receptors than they are in really getting at the core of why a given anime is loved.

And I agree as well that the prospects of a One Piece Live Action (though limited as my knowledge on the series as a whole may be) are looking bleak.
As someone who has largely kept up with the series, I can say that the casting looks good for this, but I can't fathom a way they can do it well. So yeah, bleak is right.

I'm sure the same is true for another beloved anime of mine: Yu Yu Hakusho which NETFLIX plans to release next year, I believe.
Yeah, I heard about this one, too. Loved the series, and unfortunately I suspect they won't do it justice, though it's not outside of the realm of possibility that they could manage a decent adaptation. Not optimistic, though.
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If they approach Yu Yu Hakusho in the same way they approached Bleach, then I think it should be fairly decent--maybe better. But setting will be everything. Yu Yu was pretty much a 90's anime which captured an 80's style. Essentially, no pompadours, no go.
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I do not watch as much anime as you guys, but I have seen Cowboy Bebop and I thought it was great, great feel and atmosphere to the show. It's one I think could have been recaptured in live action too, keeping with whiteflame's idea about medium. Still, I saw this shit on Netflix and it was an instant nope. Probably down to my experience with Ghost in the Shell. Maybe also I've had enough of everyone looking Asian for a while after Squid Game and that other one, hot girl, criminal dad dies, whatever it was called.  

I have two things to say here.

1. Fullmetal Alchemist is the best anime. That belongs here only insofar as I never talk about anime with anyone. But it just is. The whole mad scientist thing. The atmosphere. The magic system. The way the homunculi are inserted into a government conspiracy by means of that magic system thereby permeating the whole story, from the boys' original sin to world's end. Really, I'm just a little bit in awe of how the whole story coheres. It's an entire world spun out from a sin, no departures from that. I think it's one of the most impressive pieces of worldbuilding in all media. 

2. Wheel of Time is some of the most disappointing shit I've ever seen in my life. First three episodes - excellent. I really was excited for the show. The magic was a bit iffy, but trollocs were awesome. The fade looked a bit cartoony but serviceable. Then what the fuck happened. Nynaeve, Lan, and Moraine are ruined beyond repair. The warders are all gay. The Amyrlin Seat is a lesbian. Women can be dragons. Everyone has spent this entire first season crying. Everyone. Crying. Nynaeve is just ruined. That was a fun, fighty character, not the mopey girl this show has made her. Rosamund Pike spends 15 minutes an episode making that dumb, drawn face, supposedly hiding emotions, she just looks so dopey. Lan couldn't be more effeminate if they tried. He spent the first 5 books made of stone. I mean, it's just so much crying. Logain is also a manlet, but it doesn't even matter. Why has everyone spent every single episode crying. I am so disgusted with this show.
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I have not watched this. I just googled "wheel of time crying". At least I'm not the only one. 

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@badger
1. Fullmetal Alchemist is the best anime. That belongs here only insofar as I never talk about anime with anyone. But it just is. The whole mad scientist thing. The atmosphere. The magic system. The way the homunculi are inserted into a government conspiracy by means of that magic system thereby permeating the whole story, from the boys' original sin to world's end. Really, I'm just a little bit in awe of how the whole story coheres. It's an entire world spun out from a sin, no departures from that. I think it's one of the most impressive pieces of worldbuilding in all media. 
I'm not sure whether you're referring to the original series that aired in 2003 or Brotherhood, which aired in 2009. I think the first series handled the early elements of the story better, while the latter did far better in progressing the story and sticking the landing, which comes with the territory of the first being anime original for much of its run while the latter had the finished manga as source material. There's also a movie extending beyond the 2003 anime series, which has some great elements but stands apart from any source material.

All that being said, Brotherhood rates among my favorites (the 2003 series is still really good, but I wouldn't rate it nearly as high), though I wouldn't say it's my absolute favorite. It's probably the most solid anime series I've seen and it deserves the love it gets. I've heard that the live action adaptations have been frustrating, 

2. Wheel of Time is some of the most disappointing shit I've ever seen in my life. First three episodes - excellent. I really was excited for the show. The magic was a bit iffy, but trollocs were awesome. The fade looked a bit cartoony but serviceable. Then what the fuck happened. Nynaeve, Lan, and Moraine are ruined beyond repair. The warders are all gay. The Amyrlin Seat is a lesbian. Women can be dragons. Everyone has spent this entire first season crying. Everyone. Crying. Nynaeve is just ruined. That was a fun, fighty character, not the mopey girl this show has made her. Rosamund Pike spends 15 minutes an episode making that dumb, drawn face, supposedly hiding emotions, she just looks so dopey. Lan couldn't be more effeminate if they tried. He spent the first 5 books made of stone. I mean, it's just so much crying. Logain is also a manlet, but it doesn't even matter. Why has everyone spent every single episode crying. I am so disgusted with this show.
Another example of a series that just doesn't seem to get what it's drawing from, unfortunately. I read all of the books, I love the series, and I was pretty disappointed with this adaptation. From the beginning, I had problems, particularly as the story was pretty clearly rushing the material in ways that I didn't feel were necessary. The narrative arc juggles elements of the first three books (and some beyond that) in ways that are frustrating since they've skipped elements and moved things around in ways that end up making the series nonsensical. Many of the characters do not behave like the characters from their books. Like, from the very first episode, they just decide to introduce a wife for Perrin who serves no obvious purpose. They barely characterize her at all before hard fridging her and letting her death weigh on Perrin throughout the rest of the series.

I didn't actually have huge problems with their portrayal of Moraine, personally. Lan and Nynaeve's relationship moves way too fast, and the latter is a lot more frustrating than she should be. The Amyrlin Seat is actually canonically bedfellows with Moraine, so that wasn't a surprise. In general, I don't mind the dour feeling of the series as a whole, but the series spends so much time suggesting that who the Dragon Reborn might be because it wants to keep up that mystery that it gives no time to actually explore what the Dragon is and how the actual Dragon Reborn contends with that. It's incredibly frustrating that almost all of the history of this world, which is so important to the narrative, is drained out of this adaptation. There's no sense of scale, the Forsaken never appear, the entire concept of ta'veren is only hinted at being important without actually explaining anything...

Honestly, the series just feels like a carbon copy of fantasy tropes utilizing the pieces of this world. It's frustrating to me because what makes the series work is everything they left out. It's superficially there, but there's no depth to it at all, and given how they ended the series, I don't see things getting better in S2.
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Inserting a wife for Perrin definitely was so fucking weird. I remember he was tempted by the way of the leaf in the books and so he needs to be mopey (I guess), but this was silly shit, some Twilight nod for the wolfman or something. I'm also always speedily informed Moraine and Siuan were actually lesbians in the books, but I do not remember it, so. I guess I'm just generally annoyed at characterisation. Jordan's characters are easily some of my favourites in all of literature, and these just aren't them. Moraine was hard. Hard to match Nynaeve. Hard to match Lanfear. Hard to match Rand. But also just a lot of fun. She is a very fun character. Chiding, sarcastic, fatalistic. They gave some nod to the steeliness of her where she sinks the boatman, and her and Rand are having their tiffs, but mostly this series is using her to have a nice cry. I just don't know, man. I don't know how they've gotten it so wrong. Lan and Nynaeve is also just so wrong. The thing Jordan did right about romance was he couched it in so much humour. Rand and his three women. Aviendha, warrior. Elayne, princess. A comic pairing. Nynaeve and Lan, even at their most emotional, was never more than pure comedy. It was man vs. woman clash, from the wisdom that was supposed to be above men and the man on a warpath. Now what are they? I mean, I just don't know. They've torn down the whole art in all of these characters, and for what? Mat is probably my favourite character in all of literature and he's recast for second season. This show feels purposefully bad at this point.

I agree with you about scale too. They never did Camelyn. Tar Valon was completely uninspiring. Next thing Rand is out in a woods with Moraine, the blight, by the ways, and, well, I did not actually finish the last episode. I don't know was that Ishamael or the Dark One, and I don't much care. We'll get no Rivendales, or Gondors, or Helm's Deeps. They gave two of eight episodes to the warder bond instead of explaining anything like you said. I mean, I know it's a big ask that it should have aspired to the scale of Lord of the Rings, but. It's just such a disappointing show. Who was this for? Who wrote it and what business had they writing it? How does Amazon produce something so fucking pathetic? All hope is lost for the Lord of the Rings series. 

I'm gonna stop complaining and move on with my life. I won't even be looking sideways at S2.
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As to FMA, I guess I've only seen the original series so far. I got that, at least. I rewatched something on Netflix recently and it was awesome, either ways. 
whiteflame
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@badger
Well, it seems like we're generally on the same page about the WoT series. I knew it wouldn't be nearly as good as the books, but I hoped for better than this. Figures. Anyway, for other recommendations, I don't know if you've read much of Brandon Sanderson's other work (he wrote the last few books in Robert Jordan's stead), but they're all winners. Garth Nix is also a favorite writer of mine in the genre.

And yeah, if all you've seen is the 2003 series, it's still pretty great. I would absolutely recommend Brotherhood if you get a chance.
badger
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@whiteflame
I've tried to read Sanderson a million times at this stage. I don't know where I'm failing with him, but I will break through eventually. I absolutely loved Sabriel, Lirael, and Abhorsen as a kid. Googled Nix there to find there's a million others, so definitely thanks for that. I got no real recommendations to give really. I'm just sick of waiting for Rothfuss' third book haha. 

Cheers, buddy. 

22 days later

Athias
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@badger
I do not watch as much anime as you guys, but I have seen Cowboy Bebop
I don't watch anime as much as I used to. I could blame time but in all honesty I'm not as interested in the newer titles. The only thing I've kept up with consistently over the past few years is One Punch Man. Occasionally, I'll try to keep up with My Hero Academia or Black Clover (animes which garnered the interests of my younger cousins) but if I miss a few chapters, or episodes, it's no sweat off my back.

and I thought it was great, great feel and atmosphere to the show. It's one I think could have been recaptured in live action too, keeping with whiteflame's idea about medium. Still, I saw this shit on Netflix and it was an instant nope. Probably down to my experience with Ghost in the Shell. Maybe also I've had enough of everyone looking Asian for a while after Squid Game and that other one, hot girl, criminal dad dies, whatever it was called.
I remember getting into a debate about the live action Ghost in the Shell adaption, and all the hysteria over the fact that a so-called Asian actress wasn't cast as Major Motoko Kusanagi, despite the fact that in the manga, the origins of the major are unknown, and maybe one episode of Ghost in the Shell Standalone Complex 2nd Gig (Affection, I believe) hints at her origins. I actually thought it was sensible and even beneficial to cast Scarlett Johanson as the Major, given at the time, she was one of, if not the most, acclaimed female "action stars." And there's nothing culturally Japanese about Ghost in the Shell except for the fact that section 9 works for the Japanese government, a theme which can easily be extrapolated. It's not like Rurouni Kenshin which is inspired by Japanese historical event--i.e. the fall of the Togugawa shogunate.

I think Ghost in the Shell (2017) suffered from its release after the Matrix. Even the Wachowski Brothers (now sisters) admitted they poached some themes from Ghost in the Shell. Ghost in the Shell also suffered from the fact that it tried to do too much in that single movie. They essentially tried to to put a movie and two television series into one. For what reason? I still don't understand. Like the Cowboy Bebop adaptation, the sets and settings were gorgeous, which was particularly significant for Ghost in the Shell because of its focus on background images to inform its plot--and Ghost in the Shell (2017) really f'd up the making of the cyborg scene, especially the end. I also think that the movie ended on the wrong note. The 2017 adaptation is more about "self-discovery" as opposed to the Ghost in the Shell (1995) theme--the ambiguity of the soul.


1. Fullmetal Alchemist is the best anime. That belongs here only insofar as I never talk about anime with anyone. But it just is. The whole mad scientist thing. The atmosphere. The magic system. The way the homunculi are inserted into a government conspiracy by means of that magic system thereby permeating the whole story, from the boys' original sin to world's end. Really, I'm just a little bit in awe of how the whole story coheres. It's an entire world spun out from a sin, no departures from that. I think it's one of the most impressive pieces of worldbuilding in all media. 
Fullmetal Alchemist is among my top five all-time favorite anime--the 2003 animation that is, Brotherhood would be much further down the list. So when I see or hear anyone mention it as their #1, I usually don't shit on it given that any one of my top five can be interchangeable (though I do maintain a firm stance on Cowboy Bebop being my #1.) And what's amazing about Fullmetal Alchemist (2003) is that despite the lack of source material, they were able to create a wonderful story. I loved the homunculi being products of failed human transmutations; this made for great character-driven plots especially with the Elric Brothers and Sloth, Izumi and Wrath, and Scar and Lust. I loved that Dante and Hoenheim were the orchestrators of all these conflicts, and that it all started with a failed transmutation--much like the how the story began with the Elric brothers. And Conqueror of Shamballa offered a poignant and bittersweet conclusion to what was overall a fantastic anime. It was truly splendid. I understand the reason you would choose it as your #1.