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@EtrnlVw
Also, that if man fails, it is not God's doing either, nor God's "plan".
Well this deals with God's sovereignty, which is an entirely different issue than original sin.
Is Original Sin an Example of Kin Punishment?
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@Fruit_Inspector
I already made the point that each person is accountable for their own sins in post #5.
Yes, I wasn't arguing against you.
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@EtrnlVw
Given what seems to be your position on original sin and God's sovereignty, it was difficult to tell. But thanks for clarifying.
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@EtrnlVw
Job 2;3 has Yahweh admitting to having been moved to sin by Satan.
It is stupid for you to quote what can be easily refuted or negated.
Regards
DL
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@EtrnlVw
If we are accountable, as you say, then we cannot use a savior or scapegoat. Right?
So much for Jesus saving all.
Do you see it as a sin to abdicate ones responsibility and use Jesus in our steed?
Regards
DL
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@Fruit_Inspector
"Let me clarify. You have given no biblical justification for your assertion that sinlessness will make humans go extinct."
If sin must be in us and be a necessary part of Yahweh's plan, which it clearly is as sung by Christians, and confirmed by scriptures, then without it we go extinct.
If you stop competing, or never start, you would go extinct.
You asked why you should look into evolutionary theology.
Perhaps to learn something.
I learned that Christianity is a take off on naturalistic thinking, which confirms the stupidity of supernatural beliefs.
Regards
DL
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@GnosticChristianBishop
If we are accountable, as you say, then we cannot use a savior or scapegoat. Right?
Right, the principle of forgiveness helps us achieve our goals through humility, gratefulness and compassion for others....it doesn't eliminate our accountability. That would undermine almost the entire NT.
So much for Jesus saving all.
Depends on what you mean here. You can assist in saving someone, I can assist in saving someone, Jesus can assist in saving someone. Jesus is a great spiritual being that lots of people can learn from, he is a spiritual Master, and any great Master should have students. "Saved" to me just means the beginning of a change in direction.
Do you see it as a sin to abdicate ones responsibility and use Jesus in our steed?
I see it as a misconception. I don't think anyone thinks that because Jesus had the power to forgive sins that it means they have no responsibilities for their actions. I suggest creating a poll and look at the statistics and see how many Christians believe that. I'm not offended by Christian doctrine because I know how believers feel about it, and forgiveness as a principle is a good thing not a bad thing.
Forgiveness, as it goes around from one person to the next creates a platform of mercy, I forgive you because I know I can be forgiven, you forgive me because I forgave you. As we all build our lives on a platform of mercy and forgiveness it creates unity and compassion. Of course, not everyone will use such a platform or accept it and apply it to themselves and to others but having forgiveness as a foundation is a beautiful thing. You think that forgiveness leads to irresponsibility, unaccountability and perhaps selfishness but I see it as the opposite. The principle itself breeds gratefulness.
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@GnosticChristianBishop
It is stupid for you to quote what can be easily refuted or negated.
So, which one of us is stupid? you just did the same thing lol.
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@GnosticChristianBishop
If sin must be in us and be a necessary part of Yahweh's plan, which it clearly is as sung by Christians, and confirmed by scriptures, then without it we go extinct.
This is not a biblical justification. It is a baseless assertion.
I learned that Christianity is a take off on naturalistic thinking, which confirms the stupidity of supernatural beliefs.
So Christianity - a theistic religion - is a take off of naturalistic thinking which starts with the presupposition that there is no God? Where in the world did you learn that from?
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@Fruit_Inspector
Naturalistic thinking and knowing, the tacit, experiential, and intuitive reasoning of everyday interaction, have long been regarded as inferior to formal reason and labeled primitive, fallible, subjective, superstitious, and in some cases ineffable. It is the type of thinking that created a God that banged a 14 year old virgin to get his son.
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@FLRW
Naturalistic thinking and knowing, the tacit, experiential, and intuitive reasoning of everyday interaction, have long been regarded as inferior to formal reason and labeled primitive, fallible, subjective, superstitious, and in some cases ineffable. It is the type of thinking that created a God that banged a 14 year old virgin to get his son.
Naturalistic thinking is associated with Naturalism, is it not?
It is the type of thinking that created a God that banged a 14 year old virgin to get his son.
It is this type of thinking that makes you look like a sick moron, and certainly makes it look like you have severe reading comprehension issues.
Although you can get pregnant without having sexual intercourse, pregnancy without sperm is impossible. How did God get sperm into Mary?
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@FLRW
Although you can get pregnant without having sexual intercourse, pregnancy without sperm is impossible.
According to naturalistic thinking...
pregnancy without sperm is impossible.
The Gospels (as well as throughout the Bible) are permeated with impossible events, suddenly you're stumped by a seemingly impossible scenario? lol. Assuming that minors, who probably value Christian beliefs, are able to freely read through these topics and considering this is a public forum you should use caution when describing your sick imagination. Kids could be reading your garbage posts.
How did God get sperm into Mary?
How does an immaterial God have sexual relations with a material body? can you articulate that sicko? miraculous events occur throughout the Bible suddenly God needs genitals and sperm to advance a physical phenomenon. Well, no one claims you're a genius....if you stick with the story instead of your twisted imagination and bizarre interpretations minors won't have to be subjected to your perversions.
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@EtrnlVw
Could you imagine if one of us posted something about child rape over and over again.
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@EtrnlVw
Perhaps.
Armageddon makes Jesus quite evil.
I do not like the immoral savior ideas that immoral Christians will ignore.
I do not those who adore an evil genocidal god.
Regards
DL
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@Fruit_Inspector
"So Christianity - a theistic religion - is a take off of naturalistic thinking which starts with the presupposition that there is no God? Where in the world did you learn that from?"
Now that is stupid, given that we are Gnostic Christians and follow the esoteric Jesus archetype to find God.
My view is that there is a God, and in our material dualism, that God is us.
Modern Gnostic Christians name our god "I am", and yes, we do mean ourselves.
You are your controller. I am mine. You represent and present whatever mind picture you have of your God or ideal human, and so do I.
The name "I Am" you might see as meaning something like, --- I think I have grown up thanks to having forced my apotheosis through Gnosis and meditation and “I am”, represents the best rules and laws that we have found to live by.
In Gnostic Christianity, we follow the Christian tradition that Christians have forgotten that they are to do. That is, become brethren to Jesus.
That is why some say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.
Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.
Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.
Alan Watts - On The Book of Eli - YouTube
Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.
On Becoming an Adult - YouTube
The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.
Regards
DL
A section of the Holy Umbilical Cord believed to remain from the birth of Christ is currently in the Archbasilica of St. John Lateran.
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@FLRW
Yet naturalistic thinking leads to a better non-genocidal a hole god.
Regards
DL
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@GnosticChristianBishop
Perhaps.Armageddon makes Jesus quite evil.
Depends really, but I don't think it does in relation to why Armageddon takes place. Jesus is not actively trying to annihilate anyone, the opposition seeks to annihilate the positive principle. I mean, you can't have a Kingdom with two opposing forces, one has to go. If Jesus were to leave such a Kingdom undefended what good would prosper?
Jesus of the Gospels goes out of his way to pave a path of universal unity, the more he tried the more resistance he encountered. That's the nature of duality though, which is the very nature of the lower realms. The more elevated places of creation experience a lesser swing of duality.
I do not like the immoral savior ideas that immoral Christians will ignore.
I don't ignore anything immoral, if I see it as truly immoral. There are aspects of the Bible I do not agree with. I'm an Omnist towards religion and spirituality so I wouldn't be considered a fundamentalist Christian by Christian standards. However, I do quite admire Jesus of the Gospels and his principle oriented teachings. As a very young kid, I fell in love with his teachings, it resonated deeply with me and so I have reverence for his example.
I do not those who adore an evil genocidal god.
You should use more caution accusing others what they believe and what they support.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Ya.
Let's not mention child rape.
The churches do not like that.
They just like to do it, and latter do the really larger infraction and have parents set the price of the rape.
Let's see, --- slavery is not legal, --- but selling my son or daughter's flesh to my church after their rape is.
Quite the religions, and quite the immoral god forsaken societies that allow it.
Regards
DL
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@Polytheist-Witch
Nearly 1,700 priests and other clergy members that the Roman Catholic Church considers credibly accused of child sexual abuse are living under the radar with little to no oversight from religious authorities or law enforcement, decades after the first wave of the church abuse scandal roiled U.S. dioceses, an Associated Press investigation has found.
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@GnosticChristianBishop
The churches do not like that.
If it is your duty to protest what churches do, then perhaps you should make your voice known to those who condone such practices rather than pointing your long judging finger at people in a religious forum that have zero affiliation with such things.
Again, some of you weirdos use no caution when entering a forum with your big mouths.
Etrn
There is no justification for genocide from a god who can cure as easily as kill.
Your views are stupid and immoral.
Your morals have been corrupted.
If you admire the biblical savior Jesus, you have never debated his morals. Especially his no divorce for women ansd substitutional punishment policies.
If you had, you would know how vile some of his non-Gnostic thinking is.
When you are ready, let me know.
Genocide is never the best option, even if you like the idea of having Jesus do one.
Regards
DL
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@EtrnlVw
I think we have ascertained your poor moral worth.
Go find someone of your low status.
Regards
DL
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@GnosticChristianBishop
When you wish to debate or discuss my views and my beliefs just let me know. You made accusations, you never once countered anything I've written. To me, you seem like an angry nitwit coming to this forum to smack around a few religious people who you feel fall into your bracket of corruption. You bumped into the wrong fella.
Again, some of you weirdos use no caution when entering a forum with your big mouths.
Yeaaa!, I'm back on the Most active members.
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@FLRW
Tip of the iceberg.
Gays and women have been religions longest running victims.
Strange how churches still preach that vile harmful garbage.
Who just said something about not complaining or caring about that here?
Regards
DL
242 days later
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@Reece101
Is original sin an example of Kin punishment?If so, the wiki article of kin punishment needs to be updated.Original wiki entry: Kin punishment is the practice of punishing the family members of someone accused of a crime, either in place of or in addition to the perpetrator. It refers to the principle of a family sharing responsibility for a crime committed by one of its members, and is a form of collective punishment. Kin punishment has been used by authoritarian states as a form of extortion, harassment, or persecution. Countries that have practiced kin punishment include pre-Christian European cultures, Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, and non-Western cultures including China, Japan, and North Korea.“
The Bible says so.
Deuteronomy 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them; for I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me,
The only escape from this curse was to be born of a Virgin as in Jesus’s case.
Finally, the virgin birth is essential because it means Jesus did not inherit the curse of depravity that clings to Adam’s race. Jesus was made like us in every way except for sin (Heb. 4:15; 7:26-27). Every human father begets a son or daughter with his sin nature. This is the way of the world after the fall. Sinners beget sinners (Ps. 51:5). Always. If Joseph was the real father of Jesus, or Mary had been sleeping around with Larry, Jesus is not spotless, not innocent, and not perfectly holy. And as result, we have no mediator and no salvation.
The virgin birth is part of what Christians have believed in all times and in all places, and it is a key element in what it means for the incarnation to be “for us and for salvation.” We ignore the doctrine at our peril; we celebrate it to our benefit and to God’s glory.
The virgin birth is part of what Christians have believed in all times and in all places, and it is a key element in what it means for the incarnation to be “for us and for salvation.” We ignore the doctrine at our peril; we celebrate it to our benefit and to God’s glory.