Eventually the Trans and Feminist movements will clash... Who will the right-wing join?

Author: RationalMadman
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#1
RationalMadman
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I will like to discuss Trans-Exclusionary Revolutionary Feminism (TERF refers to the feminist who believes in this).

It is a very taboo topic these days if you want to survive as a left-winger and I could get cancelled for just typing this no doubt. I ask you this, if being a woman means nothing more than slapping on make-up, having hormones and saying 'I am a woman' then what is the struggle that Feminism is fighting against? If a woman can take hormones, present butch and then say 'I am a man' then is all her struggle as a female beforehand negated in the eyes of affirmative action quotas and other such official measures taken to safeguard females against sexism?

At this point in time, most of the T under LGBT as well as the Q under LGBTQ have found harmony with most feminists because they share many common enemies politically but the volcanic eruption will come at some point, JK Rowling has already clashed with Hermione's actress Emma Watson (Watson on the cancelling side, Rowling on the TERF side). This is a real clash, a genuine complete battle of viewpoints.

I am not being transphobic, I am being what we can call trans-skeptical here. If I tell you tomorrow that I am a woman, did I grow up with all the setbacks in my life that a girl who becomes a woman had? If yes then feminism is defeated, if no then transgenderism has limitations that need to be concrete and admitted.

Remember, feminism fought sexism not genderism, it's very important to understand that lexicality as it's not just 'playing with semantics'. I have no issue with a male acting feminine or a female acting masculine, as long as the true sex is able to be something discussed and known. There will come a true clash eventually and I am quite curious which side of the battle that the Conservative right-wing will join.
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#2
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Athias
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@RationalMadman
I remember your debate on this subject, and while I disagreed with your reasons, I did agree with the position: trasngenderism and feminism contradict each other. While mainstream feminists would have everyone believe that there's no distinction between the sexes, transgenderism epitomizes and reinforces this distinction in a very stereotypical way (e.g. the slap of makeup you mentioned.) I have no doubt that these two movements will clash at some point because when all is reduced, the positions aren't based on anything logically consistent or practical; they're purely emotional.

then what is the struggle that Feminism is fighting against?
The "Struggle" that Feminism has fought against is the nuclear family with functional relationships between a male and female parent.

If a woman can take hormones, present butch and then say 'I am a man' then is all her struggle as a female beforehand negated in the eyes of affirmative action quotas and other such official measures taken to safeguard females against sexism?
Assuming of course she's (he's?) had struggles "as a female." Not to mention, measures like AA quotas don't safeguard against sexism--quite the opposite actually.

JK Rowling has already clashed with Hermione's actress Emma Watson (Watson on the cancelling side, Rowling on the TERF side). This is a real clash, a genuine complete battle of viewpoints.
That'll teach J.K. to go with her gut and not hire the pretty little girl who would eventually turn against her.

I am not being transphobic
What is "transphobic"?

I am being what we can call trans-skeptical here.
Is there a difference? I might use that: I'm not an antifeminist; I'm just femi-skeptical.

If I tell you tomorrow that I am a woman, did I grow up with all the setbacks in my life that a girl who becomes a woman had?
Would you mind delineating these setbacks?




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@Athias
Transphobes use pronouns and say and do things that hurt the feelings of transgenders.

Trans-skeptics act sympathetic and empathetic but maintain that there seems to be a disorder at play, not just a 'way of life'.
#5
Athias
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@RationalMadman
Transphobes use pronouns and say and do things that hurt the feelings of transgenders.
And this gels with you, enough so that a label is required?

Trans-skeptics act sympathetic and empathetic but maintain that there seems to be a disorder at play, not just a 'way of life'.
And how does one measure another's empathy and/or sympathy? And doesn't the statement you maintain risk "hurting the feelings of transgenders"?

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#6
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@Athias
Yes to the second part, I don't understand the first question.

It could hurt them to know, offend and anger them. I've also come across some (especially the they/them queer/genderfluid type) who agree with my reasoning and get where I'm coming from. I won't reveal how I met them or what the conversations contained.
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#7
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The R stands for Radical, not Revolutionary, my bad.
#8
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Honestly, people who clash the two are most likely the ones that will be cancelled. Trans people are as good as their own as well as women on their own. The Right wingers would probably be watching on the sidelines encouraging violence with popcorn and cola in their hands, in my opinion.

Even then, I would argue the feminist movement, since it is more old-school. Well, many women(especially cis) are conservatives, but nearly no trans people, and they will probably use feminism as an excuse of being a Terf.
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@RationalMadman
Yes to the second part, I don't understand the first question.
I'm asking if using particular pronouns and "doing things" at the risk of hurting another's feelings requires a label?

It could hurt them to know, offend and anger them.
Wouldn't that make you a transphobe by your description.

I've also come across some (especially the they/them queer/genderfluid type) who agree with my reasoning and get where I'm coming from. I won't reveal how I met them or what the conversations contained.
Then doesn't that make the label all the more pointless? If some will get offended by it, and others won't, then what behavior or standard does the label actually describe?
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@Athias
The label you want to give to me is transphobe but I'd sooner defend a transgender person against a bully than be a bystander or join in (though in certain scenarios I'd just run to authorities or get backup ASAP if it's a fight I'm not sure I win that can end with both of us breathing through a straw).
#11
Athias
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@RationalMadman
The label you want to give to me is transphobe but I'd sooner defend a transgender person against a bully than be a bystander or join in (though in certain scenarios I'd just run to authorities or get backup ASAP if it's a fight I'm not sure I win that can end with both of us breathing through a straw).
I don't "want" to give it to you. My point is that the label is pointless because it depends more on the "reaction" than the "action" of the one whom you've given the label. It would be like my labeling someone, "trans-sensitive."
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@Athias
Imagine a Doctor telling a fat person that he is at risk at dying from Covid, and being labeled Fatphobic or Fat-skeptic...

Or a Doctor telling a Trans person he has a 41.8% chance of attempted suicide...
#13
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@Greyparrot
Imagine a Doctor telling a fat person that he is at risk at dying from Covid, and being labeled Fatphobic or Fat-skeptic...

Or a Doctor telling a Trans person he has a 40% chance of killing himself...
Thus the reason these "-phobic" labels are without point, except to ascribe some pathology at the mere possibility that some one dissents.

#14
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I would side with the feminists. They are already clashing. The feminists realize that women are losing opportunities to men who now claim to be women, because of the incentive to become a woman and be privileged. 
#15
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@Greyparrot
A qualified doctor should tell a suicidal trans person how and why not to die, instead of common icy-cold statistics. No matter who they are, people are people.
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This is the problem with Leftism. The whole point is to tear down the system, but Leftists are effective enough that they become the system. Feminists won, but now Leftists want to tear down the feminists as well for the new thing. I honestly doubt either group will go to the Right wing, at least not in the sense that we think of it. Sure the feminists will be trying to conserve feminism while Leftists try to tear it down which in a way is inherently right wing, but you won't see 3rd wave feminists voting for Trump in 2024 either. There might be a small level of conversion to actual Conservatism caused by backlash from the Trans movement I imagine however. 
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#17
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@DeprecatoryLogistician
You must be out of your mind if you think that I agree with what you're saying.
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A progresive that doesnt agree with me? This has never happend before. 
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@DeprecatoryLogistician
The right-wing libertarians seek to tear down the system.
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@RationalMadman
There is no such thing as a right-winger that tears down a system.The right wing is inherently conservative, and the only reason that people get confused about this is becasue in America conservatives are ussually trying to conserve liberty or a percieved sense of liberty. This may be libertarianism, but it is a conservative form of libertarianism. Any "right-winger" who seeks liberty through the destruction of the system is by defenition on the left wing, but they are just less authoritarian than the current left wingers which makes it seem like they don't fit into that group.
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@DeprecatoryLogistician
That's the problem with them, you can't free the people if you enable the rich to get snowball advantages and choke-out society. 
#22
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@RationalMadman
@DeprecatoryLogistician
There is only ever one variable system.

So depending upon ones view point, left is either left or right,

And right is either right or left.

Feminism and Trans are labelled concepts relative to actions and possibilities,

And as such are all a part of the ongoing system,

Of material development.

As Athias suggested to me earlier:

It doesn't matter which way we are facing,

As long as we get there.
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#23
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@zedvictor4
You just double-spoke so well that Boris would envy you.
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Zed envy.


#25
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Joining either movement? No. Agreeing with the Feminists on this one? I certainly would.

#26
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Personally, I don’t see it as who the right wing will ‘join’.  The real question seems to be if the feminists will be willing to work with right wingers.

Because the right is against most positions held by both groups, and they will continue to be so. And by holding these positions, they will generally team up with who will fight those with them.

If feminists want to help achieve a mutual goal of not having women get annihilated in sports, not have creepy guys with wigs in women’s restrooms, etc.

To sort of answer the question you asked, I think it is infinitely more possible that there would be a feminist-rightwing alliance, since transgenderism has many positions of feminism with a few sick twists like  outright denying realities of sex (with the implications you note regarding being able to take all of the benefits set aside for women)

Now while there might be some agreement with feminists on things like transgender sports, on the other side, I don’t believe there is any transgender issue that right-wingers would also believe in that feminists wouldn’t.
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I guess some right-wingers could be super cynical and think “if men can start taking women’s privileges, the whole non-male support system would implode”, but I don’t really expect that to be enough of a motivating factor.
#28
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The TERFs realize that females are inherently privileged and are going to war with trannies because by men becoming women, they are stealing that privilege. 

I think us right wingers will side with the terfs 
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@bmdrocks21
TERF'S ARE cool man. We should work with them on mutual goals
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#30
RationalMadman
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That is not a correct analysis of the feminist side of the battle.

In fact, you have not explained the transgender side at all and are using a transphobic term 'trannies'.