- I don't follow the reference here?
- Doesn't the alternative require even more effort & struggle?
- Is this due to environmental conditions or personal journey?
- You didn't look elsewhere for faith?
- I've been arguing with you lot about faith, mostly Islam, for a while now. I'm curious, have any of you changed your mind or revised your views about the religion or any topic regarding Islam after our exchanges. If so, what topic? Why? Or why not?
Also, what other faith related views have you discarded or adopted in general during your time on this Forum? & why?
- What factors contribute most to your evolving opinions? Emotional? Intellectual? Popular?...
My faith (Catholic) only grows as I age and see Biblical narratives reflected more and more in reality. I was raised pretty much as a cultural Christian with very little religious education, reading the Bible makes me feel basically that “all of the answers were here the entire time…”
I don’t talk about religion much here because I think very few people are willing to talk about it in good faith (I consider you one of those few FYI even though I don’t really interact much, I enjoy your posts)
Who are the Buddhists controlling, lol. The fact you hate yourself so much god can't be like you is all you, boo.
I haven't changed my mind about Islam since reading your dialogues. I knew Muslims loved talking about religion and were argumentative. I also knew that they had an agenda and were not moved themselves by other's arguments and evidence.
Even now reading more of your dialogue, it is amazing how EVERY argument somehow becomes propaganda or is false.
I also accept more fully the truth - that Muslims don't care about the truth except when it suits them.
Since I reject the ends justifies the means argument, I find this flaw of Islam concerning.
I have had some meaning exchanges with Rosends about the Jewish religion. Also PGA.2 has helped me to change my views about the preterist position. I have found it helpful discussing with some of the atheistic views on determinism have reshaped my thinking. And my views in relation to Orthodox church have been tested by some of our resident forums.
Emotional factors rarely shape my thinking. An intellectual argument can be quite persuasive if it is compelling. I don't care about the popular views.
Mostly, however my views can be changed and shaped by revelation - the Scriptures.
I haven't changed my mind about Islam since reading your dialogues. I knew Muslims loved talking about religion and were argumentative. I also knew that they had an agenda and were not moved themselves by other's arguments and evidence.- Maybe the other's arguments & evidence weren't that good? I'm probably the only Muslim here, how come you've never showed me those arguments?
Even now reading more of your dialogue, it is amazing how EVERY argument somehow becomes propaganda or is false.- Examples?
I also accept more fully the truth - that Muslims don't care about the truth except when it suits them.- Have you thought that maybe your truth wasn't that compelling? Try it, hit me.
Since I reject the ends justifies the means argument, I find this flaw of Islam concerning.- Which flaw is that? I thought you were talking about Muslims.
I have had some meaning exchanges with Rosends about the Jewish religion. Also PGA.2 has helped me to change my views about the preterist position. I have found it helpful discussing with some of the atheistic views on determinism have reshaped my thinking. And my views in relation to Orthodox church have been tested by some of our resident forums.- Would you accept arguments & evidence for Islam then? –There is nothing stoping us from having those meaningful discussions. What irks you about Islam?
Emotional factors rarely shape my thinking. An intellectual argument can be quite persuasive if it is compelling. I don't care about the popular views.- Same here. Maybe we can have a debate Christianity vs. Islam, so we can find those compelling arguments.
Mostly, however my views can be changed and shaped by revelation - the Scriptures.- What makes you believe in Scriptures.
Well most of what you you write falls within that framework. Respectfully, when someone provides evidence against Islam, you either deny it, or attack Christianity. Or the writer's character. Mocking someone is not in my view an argument. It is rare that you acknowledge even a half hearted argument.
Just go back to any of the discussions recently on Islam - almost every post.
Truth does not have to be compelling. Truth is truth.
You know the doctrines as well as I do that Muslims are obligated to speak the truth to each other - but not to non-Muslims.
When such doctrines exist - it creates a mistrust in any dialogue before we begin.
Lying according to some is acceptable if it advances Islam.
Would you agree or not - knowing full well you have every motivation to lie about it and deny it as well?
See above - And this is just one flaw. Out of many.
Islam does not irk me. I just happen to think it is wrong and dangerous and unhelpful for those who want truth and salvation. Islam in that sense is a religion that denies the deity of Christ. It denies his resurrection. It denies the Trinity. Each of which are clearly expressed in the Bible.
There is not much point debating if we cannot come to an understanding of what truth is and when we should use the truth and when - advancing our own religion becomes more important than telling the truth. My discussions with Muslims can seem helpful until that issue raises its head and then truth gets thrown out the window reducing the entire discussion to ashes. Nevertheless, the good thing is the Holy Spirit is bigger than these things and still penetrates to the person's heart. I have observed many Muslims convert to Christianity, even at the cost of losing their families.
I say - "God the Holy Spirit" has made be believe the Scriptures in the first instance. And this has been confirmed over and over again by reason, and experience.
- You're going in circles. Isn't it convenient, albeit absurd, to refuse providing arguments for your claims by accusing me of rejecting them pre fact.
Just go back to any of the discussions recently on Islam - almost every post.- Then plenty of examples you can show me are false statements or propaganda, instead of just making empty claims.
Truth does not have to be compelling. Truth is truth.- I said 'your truth', not Truth -which does have to be compelling, & indeed is. You just don't have it.
You know the doctrines as well as I do that Muslims are obligated to speak the truth to each other - but not to non-Muslims.- Lying is categorically prohibited in Islam, regardless to who or what, including "white lies". So, who's lying now?
When such doctrines exist - it creates a mistrust in any dialogue before we begin.- There is definitely mistrust towards you, since you started this with lies.
Lying according to some is acceptable if it advances Islam.- No such thing. This is just childish. Knowingly & willingly lying about Islam is apostasy: "do not tell lies about me, whoever [Muslim] tell lies about me deliberately, let him take his seat in Hell Fire" the beloved Prophet Muhammed (pbuh).
Would you agree or not - knowing full well you have every motivation to lie about it and deny it as well?- I'm pretty familiar with this little circular trick. It's a childish spell they use to trap the dumbest & most gullible of Christians, to make sure they never look elsewhere to check their lies: "you have to trust us, because they are lying to you, because you have to trust us". Pretty neat trick.
See above - And this is just one flaw. Out of many.- Which is?
Islam does not irk me. I just happen to think it is wrong and dangerous and unhelpful for those who want truth and salvation. Islam in that sense is a religion that denies the deity of Christ. It denies his resurrection. It denies the Trinity. Each of which are clearly expressed in the Bible.- So did the earliest Christians. Why are we compelled to believe your Bible? Christ is obviously not God, for God is not a body, else contingent, thus not-God. The resurrection did not happen, not even according to the Bible itself, it's just an extraordinary conjecture inferred from two ordinary facts. The Trinity is literally an absurdity, a square-circle, an impossible being.
There is not much point debating if we cannot come to an understanding of what truth is and when we should use the truth and when - advancing our own religion becomes more important than telling the truth. My discussions with Muslims can seem helpful until that issue raises its head and then truth gets thrown out the window reducing the entire discussion to ashes. Nevertheless, the good thing is the Holy Spirit is bigger than these things and still penetrates to the person's heart. I have observed many Muslims convert to Christianity, even at the cost of losing their families.- Do you mean by "truth" the Bible or Reason? Why are you running from debate after all this barrage of insults & claims? Since you seem very confident & sure about your beliefs, why not have a debate?
I say - "God the Holy Spirit" has made be believe the Scriptures in the first instance. And this has been confirmed over and over again by reason, and experience.- That's blind faith. What makes you believe, as in have a positive judgement regarding the truth of scripture?
See I show you why and you deny it is an argument.
Why repeat what is everywhere. Gee just check out your last answer to me. Rather than admit the veracity of an argument - you deny there is one and tell me I am going around in circles.
I don't agree there is my truth and your truth. There is only one truth. It does not need to be compelling because it is what it is. As for who has it, I reject any view that you have it.
Well - you are. Lying is prohibited in Islam - yet what is a lie according to Islam? Not the same as rejecting an objective truth. If the lie - leads to advancing Islam, Islam approves it.
It's not a lie. It is simply revealing once again that Islam practices the view that the ends justifies the means. In other words, whatever will advance the cause of Islam is acceptable. And whatever does not - is rejected.
When Muslims, like Progressives, and socialists start to understand the fact that such a view actually undermines their own view, then perhaps - a better dialogue might be possible. It is no different to those who preach tolerance yet are the most intolerant against those who disagree with them.
The truth will set us free - not just when it advances a cause - but probably more so when it reveals all of the warts. One of the reasons why the Bible is more consistent with the truth is because it is not afraid to tell the story warts and all. Truth is not just about the ends - it also includes the means. The destination and the journey go hand in hand not just when you feel like it is going to help you.
- No such thing. This is just childish. Knowingly & willingly lying about Islam is apostasy: "do not tell lies about me, whoever [Muslim] tell lies about me deliberately, let him take his seat in Hell Fire" the beloved Prophet Muhammed (pbuh).Selective quoting. But if you wish to carry on with this lie - perhaps there is no point in going further.
It is not trick. It arises because of the doctrine within Christianity - that the ends justifies the means. The best way to counter this would be to admit it - at least that would establish an attempt at honesty and then provide a step to consider how we might go forward. Denying it just repeats the cycle and encourages mistrust.
Intentionally missing the point is another way of avoiding the truth.
The earliest Christians did not deny his resurrection. Nor did they deny the Trinity or his deity.
The earliest Christians died not of because of belief - but because they witnessed the risen Christ and were prepared to die for him and the truth. The Trinity is brilliant in concept and in practice. It is the only doctrine which brings together the contradictory natures of the One and the Many. It is not absurd.
No one is running. All I am attempting to do is to get some common trust going here. Telling the truth may well be insulting. A debate without common trust is pointless.
No - blind faith is completely different. Revelation is God's truth. Confirmed by reason - and experience. Confirmed but not necessary. Surely you do not deny revelation? Otherwise - you attest that the Islam results from blind faith.
192 days later
Islam does not irk me. I just happen to think it is wrong and dangerous and unhelpful for those who want truth and salvation. Islam in that sense is a religion that denies the deity of Christ. It denies his resurrection. It denies the Trinity. Each of which are clearly expressed in the Bible.
