Debate topic allowance limitations

Author: Thoth

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#31
oromagi
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@Athias
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No.  Your associate had her say and now she must deal with the consequences of her free speech.
You've now provided an exclusion to her free speech.
How so?

Suppose, you had a sign in front of your house which bore the statement "No calling my spouse a bitch." That renders the speech of each person who enters your home subject to this exclusion less they face the consequences.
The First Amendment is a restriction on government interference, not personal interference.  If I had a sign on the front of my house that said " don't call my wife a bitch" that in no way impedes anybody's Free Speech.

You however could call your spouse a bitch because its your home. And that's my point: you should be able to say whatever you want as long as you're on your own property. If you're on someone else's property, then your speech is subject to their criteria (e.g. yelling "fire" in a movie theater.)
Well, that's not your First Amendment right but I do call that correct behavior- your home, your rules, whether or not you actually own the house.
#32
Athias
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@oromagi
How so?
Your capacity to set criteria for what "she" should or shouldn't say based on the property on which she stands. That is, if she's on your property, you can create consequences based on that fact.

The First Amendment is a restriction on government interference, not personal interference.
Does it matter? What would the de facto difference be if you were a member of government?

Well, that's not your First Amendment right but I do call that correct behavior- your home, your rules, whether or not you actually own the house.
If one doesn't own one's house, then it's presumably the "[Bank's] home, [Bank's] rules..." Customarily, they don't concern themselves with what is said or isn't said inside one's home. But my initial point wasn't about "Free Speech," but "property rights."
#33
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@oromagi
I was taught this lesson by black people.    Most of my elementary school teachers were black.  In high school, my principal was Bobby Seale's little sister.  I went to a small city college where I studied black poetry and black literature.  I was an apprentice baker to a black woman for two years.  I live in the oldest largest black neighborhood to be found west of Chicago and east of LA.  My little townhouse was owned by Black Panthers in the 60's and by Crips in the 80's and as a center of black politics many famous black people have walked down my street and shook the hands of the black people who lived in my house- MLK, Lena Horne, Sammy Davis, Jr.,  etc.  My next door neighbor is a black poet.  I've had black lovers and black friends all my life.

I learned how to write and speak the word nigger from Richard Wright and Langston Hughes and Zora Neale Hurston and above all, from James Baldwin.
Ah, I too once had a Black guy as a president. Can I has N word pass?
#34
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@Athias
I was slightly teasing. Post #5 had sufficient merit on its own without the caveat "I was taught this lesson by black people"--as if so-called "black" people could grant you authority one way or another in spite of your extended interaction with said, so-called "black" people. That's what my question is poking fun at. (Forgive my grammatical error.) It's very reminiscent of "but, I have black friends..."
I did find his post pretty hilarious lol
#35
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@Lunatic
Ah, I too once had a Black guy as a president. Can I has N word pass?
That's not what oromagi was stating. He has stated that his experiences with so-called "Black" teachers, "black" lovers, "black" friends, "black" bosses, "black" literature, so forth and so on, informs his cultivation of this perspective:

Good news.  As a Liberal I oppose any restriction on any particular word. I don't know how we are supposed to  seriously discuss ethnic slurs like nigger, their history in our language and how they are used to signal intentional offense without first being at liberty to type the word out.  Minced oaths and X-word references invoke the original slur just as effectively as the word itself while also implying a kind of semantic magic,  as if context is irrelevant and merely writing the word by itself has the power to offend.  Well, that's just self-censorship and as often happens when ideas are censored, gives the target more semantic power than mere usage might ever invoke.
My point was that this point is valid on its own without the alleged "authority" his past experiences and interactions with so-called "black people" provide. Oromagi hasn't suggested a "pass" at all; only that censoring (e.g. Minced oaths and X-words) provides an offensive term more of an impact than its mere usage--as it ignores context, and its etymological applications.
#36
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@Athias
Ah, I too once had a Black guy as a president. Can I has N word pass?
That's not what oromagi was stating. He has stated that his experiences with so-called "Black" teachers, "black" lovers, "black" friends, "black" bosses, "black" literature, so forth and so on, informs his cultivation of this perspective:

Like I said, he knows a lot of black people so he gets the N word pass lol
#37
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@Lunatic
Like I said, he knows a lot of black people so he gets the N word pass lol
More accurately, when you live in communities that include lots of black people, you learn how to speak the word without giving offense.  When RM says, "Go and say it to black people for real then talk big" I guess I felt challenged to establish that I had no  race-specific fears in that respect.

As I stated in the first sentence of my OP " I oppose any restriction on any particular word" so no, I don't believe that people have to earn the right, or "pass" as you would  put it, to use particular words.  To say as much demonstrates your misunderstanding.   As I stated, substituting "N-word" gives the word extra power- as if there's not some way to use the word nigger without giving offense, but that is false.  That is the road to school districts banning Huckleberry Finn or Native Son just because those novels use the word.  That is making the word nigger a fetish.

Everybody in the US has the right to use the word nigger at any time but with that right comes the responsibility to use the word correctly.  To my thinking,  if you are afraid to use the actual word but willing to use the substitute word then that is likely because:

  • You are ignorant of how to use the word without offending or
  • You don't know how to justify your usage to the Karens who pretend at offense without cause or
  • You wish to offend but fear the consequences of giving offense.





#38
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@oromagi
Were saying the same thing, you are just using more words ;-)
#39
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@oromagi
Everybody in the US has the right to use the word nigger at any time
I'm seriously starting to worry about your sanity...

How can you seriously say this, which would include white people saying it to black people, and identify as a left-wing progressive?
#40
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@oromagi
  • You are ignorant of how to use the word without offending or
A white person can literally not use the N-word without offending, even if talking about the word. I think your social awareness and/or EQ are to blame here, I can't think of what else it may be.

And I'm diagnosed with Asperger's / high functioning Autism so to me it's pretty odd that I'm the one more streetsmart and aware of the social and emotional aspects surrounding a word, even if the logic would imply otherwise.
#41
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Were saying the same thing, you are just using more words ;-)
I'll repeat,

 To say as much demonstrates your misunderstanding

If you think we are saying the same thing than you have failed to comprehend.
#42
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@RationalMadman
A white person can literally not use the N-word without offending
I am a white person.  I have used the word nigger in the forum six or seven times. 

Let's define the word offense as "a perceived insult to or disregard for oneself"

Please explain why you feel insulted or disregarded by my usage in this forum.
#43
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@oromagi
I'll repeat,

 To say as much demonstrates your misunderstanding

If you think we are saying the same thing than you have failed to comprehend.

You are like if this girl could speak english: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6fsuQRQH0s&ab_channel=InstagramTea

#44
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@Lunatic
That is, you don't disagree on any particular point.  Comprehension is not what you are about- you are only here to insult. 

Got it. 


#45
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@oromagi
That is, you don't disagree on any particular point.  Comprehension is not what you are about- you are only here to insult. 

Got it. 
Insult? Just a bit of harmless trolling thats all. I found your post pretty hilarious that you were going above and beyond to explain why you think your qualified to use the N word that's all. The whole paragraph seemed like a saturday night live skit lol
#46
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@oromagi
Please explain why you feel insulted or disregarded by my usage in this forum.
Aside from the fact that you spell it with hard R, you keep using the term intentionally to trigger in a context that isn't actually about or towards black people so I am not sure why you think I am personally insulted or disregarded.

I know black people who even for your usage of it in this forum would be offended and insulted. I am not such a person, though I do find it very distasteful/offputting.
#47
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@RationalMadman
Ratman, context is everything  or at least should be considered. 

I had whte friend who was in prison, and his black friend referred to him { white friend } as he's my nigga.  In turn, my white friend refered to his black friend as he's my nigga.  This is brotherly love, bonding, etc.

This is a public forum and while some may feel very brotherly with another, I ---a white person---  refrain from using some words of a derogatory nature.

Ex idiot, stupid, retarded, women as b__ches etc.

I do use lame/clueless as in, dude your being kinda of lame/clueless in the brain etc. 

..." Paramount Pictures’ “The Legend of Nigger Charley” (1972) was the first film to use the “N” word in an actual movie title. In conjunction with the release of the film Paramount rented a three story high billboard in New York City’s Times Square. The poster art showed a defiant African American male (athlete- turned actor Fred Williamson) staring threateningly down at onlookers. The tagline: “Somebody warn the West. Nigger Charley ain’t running no more!”....


There were a hybrid of blacks and indians in 1700 Flordia USA, that had covered wagons they pushed/pulled around by hand they were called ' crackers '.

I presume this is where the modern day use of ' white cracker ' stems from. I dunno.
#48
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There are white people like Eminem, who genuinely are more like the black ethnicity they grew up and around than some black race people who grew up in wealthier white-filled suburbs, nonetheless the white person can't just use the N-word.

I am even against black people using it much at all, I think it's an ugly word with very bad connotations. I don't think it has any place on a sophisticated debate website.
#49
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Please explain why you feel insulted or disregarded by my usage in this forum.
Aside from the fact that you spell it with hard R,

Nigga is a colloquial representation of black speech.  Since I am not representing black speech here such usage would not be appropriate.  

you keep using the term intentionally to trigger
I beg your pardon, RM, but you brought the word up- not me. :
"With Airmax as site president you can even use the n-word."

There's no valid argument that you are triggered by a word but not triggered by its abbreviation.  They both point to the same semantic meaning.

I replied: 
"I don't know how we are supposed to  seriously discuss ethnic slurs like nigger, their history in our language and how they are used to signal intentional offense without first being at liberty to type the word out. "

Not only did I not use it to offend, I carefully placed it in the context of ethnic slurs.  That is, I wasn't even talking about any specific ethnic slur but arguing against the substitute use of such words as a fetishization of language- making offensive words more powerful by being afraid to use them.

in a context that isn't actually about or towards black people so I am not sure why you think I am personally insulted or disregarded.  I know black people who even for your usage of it in this forum would be offended and insulted. I am not such a person, though I do find it very distasteful/offputting.
And yet you are representing black opinion here, for some reason.   I have no way of knowing or verifying skin color in a social media environment like this and I don't believe in modifying my opinion or language use according to skin color anyway.  Why do you?