Genuine Question for right-wing people regarding the handling of the poor that need food banks.

Author: RationalMadman
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Poverty
Capitalism
food banks
welfare

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#31
Athias
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I am a huge supporter of food banks (I agree with the left-wing that in the ideal endgame they aren't needed but I am a fan of them for now in all societies that need them) and am curious about the core opposing stance that right-wingers have to everything from welfare through to charities like food banks.
This is deceptive. You're grouping "charity" and "welfare" while eliding their distinctions.

If somebody is so poor they can't eat, they can't have the energy to do a good job at work, decreasing their productivity towards the nation's economy.
Not eating =/= less productivity. Kyrie Irving's 39 points in Saturday's game against the Celtics is a testament.

This means even a sheer sociopath should not mind people sparing some food and sanitary products
Why would a sociopath concern him or herself, if we were to entertain the veracity of your assumption, with someone else's productivity? Aren't we disregarding the description of "sociopathy"?

to food-bank style charities to help out those with their backs against the wall,
Once again, your statements exhibit deception.

This 'they are lazy' concept is bullshit. The vast majority of the severely poor are not lazy
There's no way for you to know this.

they are perhaps ill-informed on money management that are now
By the very same token, there's no way for you to know this, either.

doomed due to that but they need help at times to even cope and have breathing room to feed themselves and/or families.
There's a difference between "help" and "conscription into the service of another."

I ask to you, in your ideal solution to poverty
The solution to poverty is acknowledging that there's no solution to poverty.

without moving towards social democratic benefits, welfare etc
Deception. Once again, you're grouping "social democratic benefits," "welfare," with "charity" without distinction.


how does the society eliminate brutally severe poverty where going severely hungry and without basic sanitary products is necessary for the poor to be able to afford their bills?
Don't tax (rob) them; remove labor restrictions including the minimum wage--I mean working for two dollars an hour is a lot better than being legally unemployable; remove the central bank; private charities, etc. And everything I mentioned is "welfare-free."

Food banks are supposed to cover when the welfare system is falling short on certain families, this question is about both and why the right-wing oppose them.
Wefare systems will always fall short.
#32
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@ADreamOfLiberty
I am a centrist (center right at the moment, but I fluctuate between left and right) but will answer with my thoughts. I do want to start by asking where you get the idea that people on the right are opposed to food banks though (as I have not heard of that accusation).
I was wondering the same thing.


#33
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Because that way the people prospering from/within the society are maintaining the poorest within it.
This is some seriously dated Marxist philosophy. It assumes there are no rich people that didn't work their ass off and produce a fuckton for society without exploiting slaves.
#34
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@ADreamOfLiberty
I don't oppose any charity, only theft. I don't believe any significant number of people oppose a purely voluntary welfare system.
Well stated.
#35
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Force is necessary to enforce the will of the populace (in democracy) or leadership (in autocracy) upon those that wish to circumvent the rules of the system.
In other words, my ideals grant me carte-blanche to conscript your time, labor, and property into my service while I place you under duress.

Fraud is committed by the rich to tax-evade severely, regularly and at large.
There's nothing fraudulent about avoiding theft, robbery, and/or burglary.

The poor-welfare fraud is mainly being used out of desperation to cope better.
How do you know this?

So, which fraud disgusts you more?
The second one, hands down.

#36
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@TheMorningsStar
@ADreamOfLiberty
I am a centrist (center right at the moment, but I fluctuate between left and right) but will answer with my thoughts. I do want to start by asking where you get the idea that people on the right are opposed to food banks though (as I have not heard of that accusation).
I was wondering the same thing.
Sorry, this was meant for TheMorningStar.

#37
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@Athias
How do you know this?
I guess ill go use my SNAP card and hit 7-11 and buy some soda and snacks out of "desperation"

Be back in 15 minutes.
#38
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@Greyparrot
How do you know this?
I guess ill go use my SNAP card and hit 7-11 and buy some soda and snacks out of "desperation"

Be back in 15 minutes.
The irony is in the presumption that those who game the system are "doing it for a good reason" while those seeking to extract themselves from said system, will indulge "their baser instincts" without said system.
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#39
RationalMadman
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@Athias
Force is necessary to enforce the will of the populace (in democracy) or leadership (in autocracy) upon those that wish to circumvent the rules of the system.
In other words, my ideals grant me carte-blanche to conscript your time, labor, and property into my service while I place you under duress.
Yes, that is what the rich do to the poor (apart fromt he honest and generous ones) and would do more mercilessly if it wasn't for minimum wage, welfare, food banks and a few other things like public education.

Fraud is committed by the rich to tax-evade severely, regularly and at large.
There's nothing fraudulent about avoiding theft, robbery, and/or burglary.
Please stop using other words that you feel are what 'tax' is and use the word 'tax' in that sentence, so that we understand what you are referring to.

The poor-welfare fraud is mainly being used out of desperation to cope better.
How do you know this?
I'd say 'common sense' but it does appear only the left-wing and centrists seem to have that on this matter. To make this simpler for you, I'd like you to imagine magnitude rather than frequency.

How much starvation, lack of hygiene, lack of happiness and lack of (therefore) productivity would you imagine will come to the poor if the rich were not providing for them in almost any way.

I can give you a clue, visit Bangladesh or Uganda.
So, which fraud disgusts you more?
The second one, hands down.
This really is a case of 'I wasn't asking you'.
#40
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Yes, that is what the rich do to the poor

More Marxist BS. It would be funny to just dismiss this as the ramblings of the uneducated, but we have a special breed in D.C. at war with American suppliers and producers at the moment.

Bare Shelves Biden is the result when you entertain dated Marxist BS.
#41
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Yes, that is what the rich do to the poor (apart fromt he honest and generous ones) and would do more mercilessly if it wasn't for minimum wage, welfare, food banks and a few other things like public education.
Elaborate.

Please stop using other words that you feel are what 'tax' is and use the word 'tax' in that sentence, so that we understand what you are referring to.
How else would one express the seizure of funds and/or other property at metaphorical gun-point (i.e. the threat of deadly force being codified into law)? Yeah, I'll stick with theft, robbery, and burglary.

I'd say 'common sense'
In other words, you don't know.

This really is a case of 'I wasn't asking you'.
I'm good that way. I answer without you even having to direct your questions at me. Isn't that convenient?
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#42
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@Greyparrot
Yes, that is what the rich do to the poor

More Marxist BS. It would be funny to just dismiss this as the ramblings of the uneducated, but we have a special breed in D.C. at war with American suppliers and producers at the moment.

Bare Shelves Biden is the result when you entertain dated Marxist BS.

I see. Bare shelves Biden, eh? Well skeleton-bodied starving people in Africa and South Asia is the result when you don't entertain what you call Marxist BS.
#43
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Well skeleton-bodied starving people in Africa and South Asia is the result when you don't entertain what you call Marxist BS.
No, it's the result of promoting a "might makes right" society instead of promoting a society where the government does not exploit the people through force and violence. A society we are quickly regressing towards as the government cracks down on peaceful protests and censors speech.

Most countries in Africa are ruled by warlords instead of a free meritocracy with social mobility.
#44
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@RationalMadman
I see. Bare shelves Biden, eh? Well skeleton-bodied starving people in Africa and South Asia is the result when you don't entertain what you call Marxist BS.
This is a common fallacy that I see in the world hunger argument. The problem isn’t that there’s not enough food. The problem is the distribution network of the food. 

The distribution network that has to factor in war/violence, legal problems in countries, corruption, infrastructure investments. 
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#45
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@ILikePie5
Um... that's exactly what I'm saying. Except replace 'food' with 'food, hygiene products and happiness'.
#46
ADreamOfLiberty
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RM, Africa has been overrun by communists and islamists. The only places that haven't had multiple experiments with communism are the places that aren't really starving.
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#47
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Not true at all. I actually know about pretty much every single one there as it's a perfect case study continent-wide for the harms of extreme capitalism.

The few places that dabbled in so-called communism are just more aggressive/violent. Poverty in Africa is severe in the capitalist nations.
#48
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The few places that dabbled in so-called communism are just more aggressive/violent.
... and poor

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#49
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@ADreamOfLiberty
I'm confused, sorry, are we discussing if the rich within the country are richer than the other ones?

The rich in Kenya for instance (never had a drop of communism) are very rich, yes. The poor are also extremely poor.
#50
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You said "starving", so starvation deaths per capita would be the appropriate metric.
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#51
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Buddy the government lets them fucking starve, do you think they count them in quotas/surveys
#52
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Buddy the government lets them fucking starve,
First it's the rich people letting them starve, now it's the government.

BINGO...it's the rich government.
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#53
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@Greyparrot
Correct. It should tax the rich more to give to the poor, LOL! Didn't think that one through did you?
#54
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Correct. It should tax the rich more to give to the poor, LOL! Didn't think that one through did you?
I sure did! Tax the government! Burn DC down and give it back to the people!
#55
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@RationalMadman
Um... that's exactly what I'm saying. Except replace 'food' with 'food, hygiene products and happiness'.
By all means if you want to do all of the things I mentioned, go ahead. No sane investor would ever invest in the project. 

You’re arguing that people should literally burn their money
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#56
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@ILikePie5
That is why force is required to get tax money out of the greedy.
#57
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@Greyparrot
You're conflating the issues of the necessity of government, and the status and behaviour of individuals within the social hierarchy.

Remove one "greedy" government, and as sure as eggs is eggs you will replace it with another "greedy" government.


As the saying goes, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

The difference being that you can freely  make the comments that you do, and criticize your government as you do.


The reality is that you achieve relative to your ability, and are resentful of those who possess a greater ability to achieve more than you.


Better to find and be content with your social niche.

But in fairness, it did take me a while to come to, and be satisfied with this conclusion.


I blame testosterone.


#58
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@zedvictor4
@RM, well you may be right that reliable statistics don't exist, but then your original claim about Africa is unverifiable and should be disregarded.


[RM:] Buddy the government lets them fucking starve,
[Greyparrot:] First it's the rich people letting them starve, now it's the government.

BINGO...it's the rich government.
[RM:] Correct. It should tax the rich more to give to the poor, LOL! Didn't think that one through did you?
Ouch, no I'm afraid it's you RM who didn't think that one through. If the rich people = the government how do you think they got rich?..... taxes, yes ladies and gentlemen the answer is taxes.


[RM:] That is why force is required to get tax money out of the greedy.
"investment" without consent is most accurately called theft.


[zedvictor4:] The reality is that you [greyparrot] achieve relative to your ability, and are resentful of those who possess a greater ability to achieve more than you.
Where did he relate resentment against those of "greater ability"? Are you suggesting government tax offices are staffed by a superior breed of men?
#59
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@RationalMadman
That is why force is required to get tax money out of the greedy.
So why isn’t the government doing anything about. Corruption + Warlords. Who would’ve guessed
#60
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@ILikePie5
He is talking about overthrowing the government to help the poor. Or an insurrection.