Freedom of Speech

Author: Double_R

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@3RU7AL
bingo

isn't "shame" also free-speech ??
What if one "shames" another for doing something perceivably wrong?

Even if we're discussing strictly "racist speech" I still haven't grasped how the principle of free speech would disqualify such speech among those who accept it. I think in this case, it's prudent we create a distinction between "personal propriety" and "principle."

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@Athias
What if one "shames" another for doing something perceivably wrong?
what if one "shames" another for "no good reason" ?

isn't that still technically free-speech ?

isn't protesting government policy sorta kinda "shaming" the officials presumably responsible ?
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@Athias
it's prudent we create a distinction between "personal propriety" and "principle."
please explain
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@3RU7AL
what if one "shames" another for "no good reason" ?

isn't that still technically free-speech ?

isn't protesting government policy sorta kinda "shaming" the officials presumably responsible ?
Yes. Great counterexamples.

please explain
One personally finds "racist speech" inappropriate in his/her own diction as well as that of those with whom he/she interacts, but maintenance of the principle of free speech would dictate that one's notion of inappropriate is not a measure of what one can state or express.

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@Athias
maintenance of the principle of free speech would dictate that one's notion of inappropriate is not a measure of what one can state or express
(IFF) you only support speech you agree with (THEN) you don't support free speech

(IFF) you only support religions you agree with (THEN) you don't support freedom of religion
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@3RU7AL
(IFF) you only support speech you agree with (THEN) you don't support free speech

(IFF) you only support religions you agree with (THEN) you don't support freedom of religion
I would slightly modify that, but yes, pretty much.

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@3RU7AL
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@Double_R
this seems to place a monumental weight (the "value" of humanity itself) on the (rather elusive) pin-head of "free-will"
Reason and choice have monumental weight. Whether it is truly unique to humanity or not is besides the point.
[3RU7AL:] at what point did you reason-and-choose to avoid pain and discomfort

at what point exactly did you reason-and-choose to enjoy your favorite food and drink
Avoiding pain and seeking pleasure is an old system solved many millions of years ago. The uniqueness of man and the proper focus of his conscious thought is not in his pain/pleasure or even in his suffering/satisfaction (the emotional evolution of pain/pleasure) but in his reason and choice of actions and values.

A bee can prefer sweet over biter. A dog can prefer happiness over suffering... but man can abstract values, choose amongst them with reason, and use reason and creativity to achieve them.

My favorite food was not chosen by an objective/rational process, but choosing my favorite food isn't really the problem facing us. Building societies and technology which give me a wide selection to choose my favorite food and to actually enjoy it at will is the problem. Our ancestors have done an awesome job tackling the problem with reason and choice.

Choice in values also effects satisfaction and suffering. We can think ourselves into misery or to enlightenment given the same environmental factors.

Pleasure and pain aren't irrelevant, but they aren't primary; acting like they are is throwing away 200 million years of progress. Not sure how this conversation got here but *shrug*.


[Athias:] Case in point: Let's for a moment consider that I described "voluntarism" as the principle in which man ought to act and organize without being subjected to or being the initiator of violence, aggression, coercion, and/or duress.  If I were to include "shame" among this list of qualifiers, what then would my description of the principle suggest?
It would suggest that coercion (the rest were synonymous in context) is not the only thing that threatens the value the principle is meant to achieve for shame also threatens it.


[Athias:] Why would the principle be wider than "rejection of violence, fines, or threats thereof"?
because that's what the value implies.

Hardly, it was clearly an example of other principles which are do not strictly exist along the lines of objective social rights.
[Athias:] So if something as presumably "shameful" as "racist speech" should not be precluded by the principle of free speech, then I ask once again, why is "shame" included in free speech's purview?
because, man being a rational animal (remember what I said), shaming him for his beliefs is not the appropriate way to deal with beliefs even if they are shameful according to the values and inferences of others. Reasoning (debate) is the proper response because shaming has no bias towards truth while debate does.

Perhaps a man doesn't respond to reason but only to shame, then perhaps shame should be resorted to, but that isn't a flaw in the principle but the man. If the man doesn't respond to shame and violates the rights of others then he must be attacked, but that does not mean non-aggression is a flawed principle.



To be clear there isn't exactly a "right to free speech", there is a right to not be attacked for speech.
[Double_R:] This conversion is not about physical retaliation, so “attacked” in this sense is just an overhyped word being used to mean “criticized”.
When I say "attacked" I mean physical attack, or threats of physical attack, or malicious deception. If you don't believe that's relevant to this conversation then you don't believe the objective "right to free speech" is relevant, the principle of free speech I gave was not a definition of a right. It was an algorithm to achieve a value (as all principles are). Depending on if the value is objective and universal that principle could be fully expressed by a right but it need not be, nor does a principle need to relate to a right to have validity.


[Double_R:] Therefore your statement is that in principal we have a right to not be criticized for our speech. But the right to criticize someone else is literally what free speech means, so this statement is self refuting.
At no time did I state that.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
When I say "attacked" I mean physical attack, or threats of physical attack, or malicious deception.
First off I have no idea how malicious deception has anything to do with a physical attack, but more importantly, none of these concepts have anything to do with the principal you espoused.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
My favorite food was not chosen by an objective/rational process, but choosing my favorite food isn't really the problem facing us.
your food preferences and your efforts to procure sustenance have moral implications

nobody has an "objective" opinion/preference/process

everything you call "rational" is in pursuit of some goal

we are capable of trading short-term pleasure/gain for longer-term pleasure/gain

but we don't often take action with the specific goal of making ourselves miserable and our lives feel meaningless

we do often call it "noble" to "sacrifice" our own (short-term) preferences for some perceived "greater good" or for a loved one

but even that is still fundamentally selfish and motivated by emotion (not "pure reason")
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@ADreamOfLiberty
It would suggest that coercion (the rest were synonymous in context) is not the only thing that threatens the value the principle is meant to achieve for shame also threatens it.
How?

because that's what the value implies.
Elaborate on this implication.

because, man being a rational animal (remember what I said), shaming him for his beliefs is not the appropriate way to deal with beliefs even if they are shameful according to the values and inferences of others.
There's a distinction between "propriety" and "principle."

it's prudent we create a distinction between "personal propriety" and "principle."
please explain
One personally finds "racist speech" inappropriate in his/her own diction as well as that of those with whom he/she interacts, but maintenance of the principle of free speech would dictate that one's notion of inappropriate is not a measure of what one can state or express.
(IFF) you only support speech you agree with (THEN) you don't support free speech

(IFF) you only support religions you agree with (THEN) you don't support freedom of religion
I would slightly modify that, but yes, pretty much.
"Propriety" is your personally preferred latitude in any particular event or action; principle is fundamental.
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@Athias
"Propriety" is your personally preferred latitude in any particular event or action; principle is fundamental.
great point