Is it possible to oppose transgenderism as a solution to gender dysphoria and not be 'transphobic'?

Author: RationalMadman

Posts

Total: 117
TheMorningsStar
TheMorningsStar's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 398
2
3
7
TheMorningsStar's avatar
TheMorningsStar
2
3
7
even while opposing surgery it would be best to remember that it is none of your buisness because it is not your body.
I mean, as a society I think it is appropriate to care about how people are treated. This is why we don't use the "not your body" argument against people that try and stop suicidal people from committing suicide.

But, let's grant this for a moment.
Do I now have to change how I speak? Do businesses have to now let biological men into women's changing rooms? What about sports?
Seems like affirmation is more than just this one person making a change to their body, it also is about society playing along as well.
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
promoting designer genitalia...  directed at kids
Let's address this hogswallop first because clearly no one is directly marketing designer genitals to children. That is just the same "we must protect the children" fear mongering that always accompanies any fight for social equality. Let's just address the facts shall we?
as if it were a tattoo or a body piercing.
Is a tattoo or a body piercing bad for some reason? It seems like a nonissue both as a health concern and as an ethical concern although I am primarily disinterested in ethical questions unless it is also a health concern in which case the health issue trumps the ethical issues to me. Are elective cosmetic surgeries bad? Do you oppose nose jobs for the purposes of "protecting the children"?
the mortality rates of trans.
I'm not really sure what you are referencing but they aren't dying because of the surgeries so this is clearly besides the point.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 22,968
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@secularmerlin
That is just the same "we must protect the children" fear mongering that always accompanies any fight for social equality. 
I am pretty sure the bans on the tobacco industry preventing them from targeting children had to do mostly with death rates, not inequality.

Is a tattoo or a body piercing bad for some reason? 
No, which is why the medical industry today wishes to promote hormone replacement as an equally safe way to change the appearance of your body despite overwhelming evidence that this is not true.
The industry also promotes being a designer trans using surgeries and hormone replacement as a safe way to feel better about yourself and feel included like tobacco was sold to kids in the 1960's with misleading advertisement.

That's the business of the body I am talking about.

secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
I don't know what you are talking about. Being transgender cannot be marketed to anyone effectively. One simply doesn't decide to be trans. No commercial or product in the world can make a cis person trans or a trans person cis. Your tobacco example is a false analogy. 
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
That's the business of the body I am talking about.
What is your stance on circumcision?
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 22,968
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@secularmerlin
What is your stance on circumcision?
There's not a lot of evidence circumcised males in the USA kill themselves at rates significantly higher than the control group of uncircumcised males, nor have any lasting detrimental health side effects as a result of the surgical transformation.

Circumcision has been around for thousands of years so we know for sure what the long term effects are.

(We knew what the long term affects of tobacco use were likely to be in 1960 but the industry covered it up similar to the industrial coverup of the mortality rates of trans today)
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
There is evidence however that transgender people have far lower instances of depression and suicidal thoughts after they become open about being transgender than they experienced when they were closeted transgender people. 
TheMorningsStar
TheMorningsStar's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 398
2
3
7
TheMorningsStar's avatar
TheMorningsStar
2
3
7
 Being transgender cannot be marketed to anyone effectively
I mean, that is debatable.
Social contagion is a thing and as the trans-rights movement has grown there has been a sharp increase in teenage girls coming out as trans (the same demographic most susceptible to social contagion).
There isn't much study on the topic in relation to gender dysphoria yet, and, as I have pointed out in another thread, methodological issues are commonplace in studies related to gender dysphoria, so it could be quite some time before any sort of actual reliable study comes out.
But to say definitively that there isn't an aspect of social contagion is quite the leap (I would say the same to those arguing the other way as well).
We just do not know yet, but there is reason enough to have it be a point of interest to study.
TheMorningsStar
TheMorningsStar's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 398
2
3
7
TheMorningsStar's avatar
TheMorningsStar
2
3
7
-->
@secularmerlin
No, there isn't.
There is no proper control group in so many studies around gender dysphoria and reassignment surgeries. One of the largest studies around reassignment, for example, initially posted that it was helpful but had to be corrected and say that it didn't help at all (and admit that there was increase in anxiety in the surgery group). The reason for the initial mistake was that they didn't use a control group and the moment they did the opposite conclusion was reached. This is the norm when it comes to studies involving gender dysphoria, reassignment surgeries, etc., not the exception.
Studies either have too small of a sample size or no proper control groups and yet they make giant announcements about how the pro-affirmation side of things works.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 22,968
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@TheMorningsStar
I mean, that is debatable.

TheMorningsStar
TheMorningsStar's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 398
2
3
7
TheMorningsStar's avatar
TheMorningsStar
2
3
7
-->
@Greyparrot
It is stories like that that make me sympathetic to the contagion hypothesis, but social contagion does not have academic backing. Stories like that, however, has made it so I would be more surprised if academia concludes there is no social contagion. We don't know if those types of stories are a very extreme minority or whether they are more representative of the norm (or where the fall between those two points)
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 22,968
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@TheMorningsStar
It's clear that if a child is exposed to any propaganda that claims to increase inclusiveness, a child will naturally likely embrace it.

You don't need thorough research to prove this to an average person since history has uncountable instances of this. (my profile pic as one example), but there are studies like the Milgram experiment.
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@TheMorningsStar
Do you perhaps have a reputable citation?
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 564
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@secularmerlin
Cancel culture affects science a lot. This isn't a conspiracy theory it's a conspiracy reality.
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,847
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@TheMorningsStar
[RM:] They should love their sex, be as a feminine a male and as masculine a female as they naturally are.
Yes, if you don't like a gender role don't live it out. It's the conflation of gender roles with biology that is unhealthy.

Exactly, though I would caution against necessarily calling it being a feminine male or masculine female. A lot of this revolves around modern gender stereotypes and trying to pigeonhole people into one set category.
Some of those stereotypes are generally accurate, but a liberal society doesn't punish deviation. The world was turning just fine when tomboys (for example) were noted and accepted as such, but they weren't cutting body parts off.


It's primarily the fact that medical technology is not at the point of being able to change gender, yet it is being marketed as such that disturbs me. If you could make an XX or XY clone and download your consciousness into it because you would rather be a different gender would there be any rational objection? I don't think so.

The reality is, even with HRT, they're fighting their own biology and in some cases permanently damaging it. Outside of the current cultural zeitgeist I think it will be seen as just another form of body mutilation along with foot/head binding, enormous piercings, holding giant discs in your lips, etc...
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 564
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@TheMorningsStar
@Nyxified
@ADreamOfLiberty
We would never entertain a young-looking, botox-filled, plastic-surgeoned 76 year old claim to be 30 in any official sense. Why do we allow males to claim to be females and vice versa for extremely similar body modification levels?

There is not one genuine reply that you can give me which disagrees that doesn't commit a logical fallacy, try it.
Quoting myself from another thread.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 564
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@TheMorningsStar
Excellent point about the control group.
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,005
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@RationalMadman
This is pretty much how I feel. I don’t have any particular animus towards trans people and while I don’t have any in my immediate social circle if I did I would call them the name/pronouns they want. That doesn’t change my personal opinion that fighting biology is a bad idea. It doesn’t change how I take in the information that given the massive proportion of people who suffer gender dysphoria who also have some other sort of mental illness there’s probably something deeper going on than just not liking your body. I personally don’t think it’s ethical for doctors to remove functional/healthy organs but for consenting adults I can understand the “it’s none of your business” argument.

What gets me with this stuff is the kids. I’m deeply alarmed by the skyrocketing rates of trans identification among kids (1 in 50 now) and I’m deeply suspicious of anyone who thinks that these kids need to be medically transitioned. People who say that there are no long term side effects to puberty blockers or opposite sex hormones are liars and their arguments should be discounted accordingly. A lot of these kids are mentally ill (and no it isn’t because they’re so oppressed) and are doing permanent damage to their bodies long before they are considered able to consent to alcohol, sex, military service or even driving.  The so called “doctors” involved with this stuff should lose their license to practice medicine and should face criminal prosecution. 
TheMorningsStar
TheMorningsStar's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 398
2
3
7
TheMorningsStar's avatar
TheMorningsStar
2
3
7
-->
@RationalMadman
We would never entertain a young-looking, botox-filled, plastic-surgeoned 76 year old claim to be 30 in any official sense. Why do we allow males to claim to be females and vice versa for extremely similar body modification levels?

There is not one genuine reply that you can give me which disagrees that doesn't commit a logical fallacy, try it.
Quoting myself from another thread.
The standard argument I have seen is to try and act like sex and gender are entirely different categories (which they are not and this distinction's origin is not unbiased in this discussion) and then pretend that society is based around gender categories instead of sex categories (when that is literally not the case as societies that aren't based around biological sex, on some level, do not work).
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 564
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@TheMorningsStar
I am gonna first state where I disagree initially, I am genuinely left wing and progressive after all; gender, not sex, is the society's 'split'.

Next point of disagreement is the endgame. I actually back genderqueers (they/them types) and genderfluids and that movement. I support the conservative-hated idea of reducing barriers and trends that separate what a man or woman can do in a socially acceptable way that the other cannot do in a socially acceptable way.

I agree with you fully that the current solution to gender dysphoria completely hypocritically glorifies sex and undervalues sexless gender.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,250
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@RationalMadman
I don't get it. I can't get it. I am forced to zip my mouth in order to blend in with the left wing of this modern generation. It is so horrible because I am so proudly left-wing in basically all other ways.
On an individual level it is certainly possible to be against transgenderism without being transphobic. On a larger scale, it is hard to deny that the sudden obsession with transgenderism and its vast power as a political issue is ultimately fueled by anything other than transphobia.

I am prepared to give any individual the benefit of the doubt as they voice their opposition, but what I want to know is whether your opposition makes sense and is consistent with what you believe in any other respect, and also… why do you care about this? If those two things aren’t lining up I call bullshit.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 564
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Double_R
I can think of a blatant fuel... transgenders are not only affecting themselves, they are starting to try to convince teens and young, psychologically vulnerable teens and 20-24 yr old adults to use hormones that actually almost castrate the men who become women (boys even if teens do it and puberty can get inhibited with permanent consequence). Females both experience puberty earlier and do not react in a sterilisation-like manner to testosterone, though their fertility can be affected. Therefore, MtF is the bigger HRT concern for the young.

Pretty concerning, if you see the issue with it.
TheMorningsStar
TheMorningsStar's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 398
2
3
7
TheMorningsStar's avatar
TheMorningsStar
2
3
7
-->
@RationalMadman
gender, not sex, is the society's 'split'.
I disagree because for any society to work it needs to have the ability to continue in a positive direction. This requires reproduction and for there to be some level of hierarchical structure behind what is perceived as a better 'mate' (a more desirable man, more desirable woman). This necessitates that society have some structure around sex categories and have enough emphasis on these categories as to allow such hierarchical structures of desirability to form coherently. Any society that fails to do this will end up in a situation where each successive generation becomes less and less likely to keep the society stable and less and less likely to advance society in a direction deemed positive by said society (thus it leads to chaos and the collapse of the society).

If gender is truly separate from sex then a working society cannot be split based on gender instead of based on sex, as otherwise it is a society doomed to collapse. Furthermore, what constitutes the understanding of gender and of sex makes it so that a society cannot appeal to them on an equal level, one must be prioritized. With how similar a role they function in most scenarios this would lead to one, the dominant, absorbing the role of the other and lead to a society where there is no split based on one of those categories. This means that if gender is the preferred one that it will inevitably lead to the split based on sex disappearing, which will lead to societal collapse.

I support the conservative-hated idea of reducing barriers and trends that separate what a man or woman can do in a socially acceptable way that the other cannot do in a socially acceptable way.
I do as well, but that does not impact if you are a man or woman. This goes back to a NYTimes story I linked to in another thread about how a woman has a tomboy daughter. Her daughter very much is a she (the mother is a progressive and is open about her daughter being trans, but the daughter isn't). People around her cannot seem to comprehend that the daughter is not trans. The reason why is because a lot of what determines if one is trans in a child is gender role conformity, but this is exactly what second-wave feminists marched against. There are multiple ways you can be a man, there are multiple ways you can be a woman. The moment this is acknowledged and properly accepted it gets rid of a lot around the whole idea of 'gender fluid' and 'genderqueer'. These are not identities reflective of reality unless you pigeonhole people by stereotypical gender roles. It also would lead to, I believe, significantly less people being falsely identified as being trans.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 564
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@thett3
Yeah the puberty stopping transition is so bad for MtF. Males hit puberty later, around the ages where the teens are being allowed to use HRT. This is so terrible for them then if they are going to literally never become men but stay boys. Like what the fuck is even happening? That should be considere abuse, not liberation.
TheMorningsStar
TheMorningsStar's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 398
2
3
7
TheMorningsStar's avatar
TheMorningsStar
2
3
7
-->
@RationalMadman
Not only that, but a lot of people coming out now are teenage girls, the group of people most impacted by social contagions. Furthermore, I have seen many young girls that have destroyed their relationships with their families because their online group that is super affirmative has convinced them that their family members are toxic if they don't show approval or, for one girl I know, destroy her family relationship because her parents refused to put her on hormone blockers (because her online, pro-affirming friends basically convinced her that this meant her family was toxic).
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 564
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@TheMorningsStar
Okay but physiologically the harm is much more severe for teenage boys, by the time girls are 14, most have actually done most of the internal puberty alterations, whereas that is around when boys start to.
TheMorningsStar
TheMorningsStar's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 398
2
3
7
TheMorningsStar's avatar
TheMorningsStar
2
3
7
-->
@RationalMadman
I agree, and young boys can also be impacted in this way (and worse by puberty blockers), but the reason I focused on the points I did is because I know these people and was using their examples. There is an increase in destruction of familial relations due to this that impacts both young boys and young girls, but by observing the group most impacted by social contagions we become more able to see what, precisely, the problems might be.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,278
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@RationalMadman
Is loathing an inherent function or an acquired concept?

A very simple question.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 564
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@zedvictor4
Very simple for who? Can you ask others that question? Lmao

Inherent to what? Acquired from what?
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 564
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@TheMorningsStar
Can you give me a non-medical, non-statistics-quota, non-sdx(the act) situation where sex is a priority over gender in the societal split?

Give a few, not one, if they are there.