Restrictions on Abortion

Author: thett3 ,

Posts

Total: 310
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 1,576
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
Most people don’t want to ban abortion entirely but also don’t think it should be legal up to the moment of birth. What do you think the limit should be and why?
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 101
Posts: 7,220
7
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
7
10
11
Most people don’t want to ban abortion entirely but also don’t think it should be legal up to the moment of birth.
In fact, most people think abortion should be legal.  Fewer than 1 in 5  Americans want to ban abortion entirely, 1 in 20 worldwide.

What do you think the limit should be and why?
I think governments should trust the wisdom and experience of doctors and mothers and stay out of it to the maximum extent possible.  I have zero expertise in the matter and so my opinion is worse than unwanted but also probably oversimple and wrongheaded.  I suggest we leave the entire question in the hands of obstetricians and their patients.  

thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 1,576
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
--> @oromagi
I have zero expertise in the matter and so my opinion is worse than unwanted but also probably oversimple and wrongheaded.  I suggest we leave the entire question in the hands of obstetricians and their patients. 
What you’re saying is that you don’t think there should be any legal limit on abortion. Do you really not feel comfortable to render moral judgement even in an extreme case? A woman who is 36 weeks pregnant wants to abort a perfectly healthy fetus just because she doesn’t want it anymore, you’re good with that as long as she can find a doctor willing to do it?
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,873
3
2
7
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
2
7

I'd say a fetus should be able to be aborted up to first breath. That is when God breathes a soul into it.
Do you remember anything when you were in the womb?
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 101
Posts: 7,220
7
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
7
10
11
Do you really not feel comfortable to render moral judgement even in an extreme case?
Feelings make bad law.  An obstetrician would not perform such a dangerous procedure unless the health of the mother was at risk and only an obstetrician could make such a determination.  Government insertion in that determination is bound to be less well informed of the facts on the ground and is unwanted by almost all doctors and mothers when a decision must be made.
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 1,576
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
--> @oromagi
Feelings make bad law.  An obstetrician would not perform such a dangerous procedure unless the health of the mother was at risk and only an obstetrician could make such a determination.  Government insertion in that determination is bound to be less well informed of the facts on the ground and is unwanted by almost all doctors and mothers when a decision must be made.
Morality is the foundation of law, so the morality of an action is relevant on what the law should be. You say your opinion is “unwanted” and yet you post on a thread unsolicited about the subject. So you clearly have a position, and your position is that there should be no legal limit on abortion until the moment of birth. Elective third trimester abortions are legal and are performed in several states so saying no doctor would ever perform one for that reason is untrue, around 10% of people support abortion until the moment of birth for any reason and no doubt some of those people would be doctors. Why not just come out and say what your position actually is? If you truly don’t have a position, than don’t respond to a thread asking you your position. 
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 1,576
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
--> @FLRW
I'd say a fetus should be able to be aborted up to first breath. That is when God breathes a soul into it. 
Do you remember anything when you were in the womb?
I can’t remember anything before my third birthday either. Unless you think parents should be able to kill toddlers the ability to form long term memories isn’t a good threshold. Is your position that elective abortions should be permitted until the moment of birth? If not, what is your position?
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,873
3
2
7
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
2
7
--> @thett3

Yes, it is my position that elective abortions should be permitted until the moment of birth.
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 1,576
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
--> @FLRW
Yes, it is my position that elective abortions should be permitted until the moment of birth.
In your view what distinguishes birth from any other developmental threshold such as conception, heartbeat, viability, ability to form long term memory, etc? 
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 101
Posts: 7,220
7
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
7
10
11
--> @thett3
Morality is the foundation of law, so the morality of an action is relevant on what the law should be.

the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection.
-John Stuart Mill

You say your opinion is “unwanted” and yet you post on a thread unsolicited about the subject.
Obviously, for folks who read in context, unwanted by mothers and doctors not unwanted by you.  You solicited my opinion when you said, "What do you think the limit should be and why?" 
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,873
3
2
7
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
2
7
--> @thett3

God gives you a soul?
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 1,576
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
--> @oromagi
Obviously, for folks who read in context, unwanted by mothers and doctors not unwanted by you.  You solicited my opinion when you said, "What do you think the limit should be and why?" 
You’re now three posts in and you still haven’t made your position clear. I asked you about your thoughts on a specific example (an elective abortion of a healthy fetus two or three weeks before birth) and all you said is that such a thing would never happen, which isn’t true and isn’t relevant to whether you think it should be legal or not. Doctors like this exist (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_Gosnell) and someone in this very thread said they believe in abortion up to the moment of birth. Do you? 
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 1,576
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
--> @FLRW
God gives you a soul?
If you’re not going to engage in a discussion go troll somewhere else
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 11,061
3
4
8
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
8
--> @thett3
Most people don’t want to ban abortion entirely but also don’t think it should be legal up to the moment of birth. What do you think the limit should be and why?
who has legal standing to bring a case against a doctor ?

in other words

how exactly are you personally harmed by my choice of whether or not to gestate an infant ?

and

we shouldn't have laws that interfere with a doctor's choice of medical procedure

also

at what point does a prospective mother stop owning her own body ?
Novice
Novice's avatar
Debates: 19
Posts: 14
0
1
4
Novice's avatar
Novice
0
1
4
I think the most reasonable way I can answer it to say that abortion should be illegal from conception, prime facie. 
Earth
Earth's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 2,164
2
4
8
Earth's avatar
Earth
2
4
8
Ideally we would have an extensive adoption organization, but I'm okay with something like ~12 weeks to get an abortion.
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 327
2
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
2
2
2
--> @oromagi
Morality is the foundation of law, so the morality of an action is relevant on what the law should be.

the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection.
-John Stuart Mill
You quote it, but I doubt you or anyone else here believes it.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 19
Posts: 6,910
3
3
4
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
4
--> @Novice
Are you absolutely moral regarding the preservation of life....... Or selectively moral relative to social conditioning?
Reece101
Reece101's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,350
3
2
2
Reece101's avatar
Reece101
3
2
2
--> @ADreamOfLiberty


Morality is the foundation of law, so the morality of an action is relevant on what the law should be. 
The actual foundation of law is the ability to enact it. There’s a reason law and order go hand in hand.







SkepticalOne
SkepticalOne's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 1,179
3
3
6
SkepticalOne's avatar
SkepticalOne
3
3
6
--> @thett3
Most people don’t want to ban abortion entirely but also don’t think it should be legal up to the moment of birth. What do you think the limit should be and why?
Roe provides a good standard. As for abortion 'up to the moment of birth' - it should be legal. Abortions late in the pregnancy are rare and done, not for convenience or whim,  because of extraordinary circumstances.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 11,061
3
4
8
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
8
--> @Novice
I think the most reasonable way I can answer it to say that abortion should be illegal from conception, prime facie. 
good

how many murder investigations are you going to initiate for miscarriages ?

and how are you going to force people to register every time they conceive / copulate ?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 11,061
3
4
8
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
8
--> @Reece101
The actual foundation of law is the ability to enact it. There’s a reason law and order go hand in hand.
the ability to enforce ?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 11,061
3
4
8
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
8
--> @ADreamOfLiberty
the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection.
-John Stuart Mill
You quote it, but I doubt you or anyone else here believes it.
wow
Reece101
Reece101's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,350
3
2
2
Reece101's avatar
Reece101
3
2
2
--> @3RU7AL
the ability to enforce ?
Yes, including for it to be on solid legal ground. 
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 1,576
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
--> @SkepticalOne
Roe provides a good standard. As for abortion 'up to the moment of birth' - it should be legal. Abortions late in the pregnancy are rare and done, not for convenience or whim,  because of extraordinary circumstances.
But if someone did do it just as a whim, you’re good with that? A 39 week old fetus is of no value to you?