Restrictions on Abortion

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n8nrgim
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i remember back when the late term abortionist Tiller was still alive, and one of the examples of an elective abortion he did was when the mother wanted to go to a rock concert but her pregnancy was in her way. 
FLRW
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@thett3

If you were to ask how many children go without getting adopted, the answer may surprise you. Although it is difficult to quantify, roughly 20,000 children “age out” of foster care each year. This means they are now legally adults without ever finding a family through adoption.

thett3
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@FLRW
If you were to ask how many children go without getting adopted, the answer may surprise you. Although it is difficult to quantify, roughly 20,000 children “age out” of foster care each year. This means they are now legally adults without ever finding a family through adoption.
I don't think I've ever seen you make a post that isn't:

1) Trolling

2) Quoting an article that's only tangentially related to the topic at hand without linking the source
3RU7AL
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@n8nrgim
i remember back when the late term abortionist Tiller was still alive, and one of the examples of an elective abortion he did was when the mother wanted to go to a rock concert but her pregnancy was in her way. 
great example
3RU7AL
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@FLRW
If you were to ask how many children go without getting adopted, the answer may surprise you. Although it is difficult to quantify, roughly 20,000 children “age out” of foster care each year. This means they are now legally adults without ever finding a family through adoption.
EXACTLY
3RU7AL
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@thett3
How is doing that to viable fetuses preferable to telling the mother no, you can't do this at this point
at what point does a woman not have godlike sovereignty over what happens inside her own body ?

and at what point is she required to get your personal approval ?

think of a "non-abortion" example please
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@3RU7AL
If she's in the US military and develops schizophrenia,
Then the military would get her to take medication to return her to normalcy.
Same as with a guy.
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@Lemming
If she's in the US military and develops schizophrenia,
Then the military would get her to take medication to return her to normalcy.
Same as with a guy.
i know from experience that you are considered "property of the state" when you are a member of the armed forces

you basically have the same (non)rights as a convicted felon
thett3
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@3RU7AL
at what point does a woman not have godlike sovereignty over what happens inside her own body ?

and at what point is she required to get your personal approval ?

think of a "non-abortion" example please
Not everyone shares your values. I don't consider myself to have a "godlike sovereignty" over my body which is why I don't feel enraged about paying taxes or following laws. Most of the processes that occur in my body are unconscious/involuntary. I consider the human life growing inside of her to have value and rights as well, especially when they can survive outside the womb. Why kill them at that point? You may disagree, but fortunately the vast majority of people agree with me and believe that abortion in the third trimester is barbaric and should not be permitted. 
3RU7AL
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@Lemming
If she's in the US military and develops schizophrenia,
Then the military would get her to take medication to return her to normalcy.
Same as with a guy.
great example
3RU7AL
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@thett3
I don't consider myself to have a "godlike sovereignty" over my body
so, you're "pro-mandatory-vaxx" ?
thett3
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@3RU7AL
so, you're "pro-mandatory-vaxx" ?
For COVID no, because I thought the vaccine was effective enough at minimizing the danger of infection that people who took it were not in serious danger from those who chose not to, and the virus was mutating so quickly that I didn't think there was much of a chance of eliminating it entirely. So I didn't see a reason not to respect their choice. For a somewhat different situation, like a disease where breakthrough infections were much more deadly, or where herd immunity could eliminate it once and for all, yes.
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@thett3
There's some people that think being able to feel pain is the threshold. Being able to retain long-term memories is not a viable threshold since newborns can't do that.
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@Greyparrot
There's some people that think being able to feel pain is the threshold. Being able to retain long-term memories is not a viable threshold since newborns can't do that.
I'll be honest I was shocked so many people were saying they have no objection to abortion up to the point of birth. I don't even understand how an "abortion" at 39 weeks would differ from some kind of induced delivery other than deliberately killing the fetus. I was expecting everyone to give a point where they think it shouldn't be permitted and we could work backward from there to see what the fundamental value is
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@thett3
But if someone did do it just as a whim, you’re good with that?
That wasn't the question. The question was whether abortions late in the pregancy should be allowed. Given that people can die or suffer if abortion isn't allowed late in the pregnancy it should be legal. 

I am very resistent to the framing of abortions late in the pregnancy being for frivolous people not really committed to pregnancy or a child. That is simply not the case. The question of whimsical 'up to the moment of birth abortions' is dismissive of real people with real grief. It pretends there is a problem while threatening to create a problem for people who already have too many.
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@thett3
For a somewhat different situation, like a disease where breakthrough infections were much more deadly, or where herd immunity could eliminate it once and for all, yes.
the argument at the time was, "we don't know how deadly this will be, so better to force it on everyone now before the worst-case-scenario takes us all by surprise"

this will also be the argument for the inevitable next "public health scare"
thett3
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@SkepticalOne
That wasn't the question. The question was whether abortions late in the pregancy should be allowed. Given that people can die or suffer if abortion isn't allowed late in the pregnancy it should be legal. 

I am very resistent to the framing of abortions late in the pregnancy being for frivolous people not really committed to pregnancy or a child. That is simply not the case. The question of whimsical 'up to the moment of birth abortions' is dismissive of real people with real grief. It pretends there is a problem while threatening to create a problem for people who already have too many.
It is the question because it's the question I asked. If you have no moral issue with someone choosing to kill rather than deliver alive a fetus of 39 weeks because the mother is the unquestioned sovereign of her own body you shouldn't have a problem saying that. The point isn't to "gotcha" you but rather to determine what the fundamental value motivating your position is and work backwards from there.

I don't even understand how an "abortion" at an absurdly late stage like 39 weeks would differ from another form of induced deliver, other than deliberately killing the fetus. For example, in a partial birth abortion a living fetus is taken out of the womb by the doctor into a breech position, and once the head starts to come out the brain is sucked out. You good with that for a 39 year old healthy fetus, for elective reasons? It's a yes or no question. If the answer is no, you do support some restriction on abortion even if it would only restrict like 0.001% of abortions. But we can work backwards from there
thett3
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@3RU7AL
the argument at the time was, "we don't know how deadly this will be, so better to force it on everyone now before the worst-case-scenario takes us all by surprise"

this will also be the argument for the inevitable next "public health scare"
But we did know how deadly it was at the time. And by the time there were enough excess vaccines to discuss what happens with the people who voluntarily chose not to be vaccinated, the efficacy of the vaccine was clear too. I didn't think it was necessary to force it. Obviously I wouldn't support forcing people to be vaccinated without knowing the facts about the disease or vaccine
3RU7AL
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@thett3
But we did know how deadly it was at the time. And by the time there were enough excess vaccines to discuss what happens with the people who voluntarily chose not to be vaccinated, the efficacy of the vaccine was clear too. I didn't think it was necessary to force it. Obviously I wouldn't support forcing people to be vaccinated without knowing the facts about the disease or vaccine
does this "public health" policy inform your stance on abortion perhaps ?
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@thett3
It's a yes or no question.
elected officials should not be making medical decisions

they are of course free to make recommendations
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@3RU7AL
does this "public health" policy inform your stance on abortion perhaps ?
I haven't actually disclosed my position on abortion other than saying I'm against third trimester abortions, which is not at all a controversial position. 

They are linked in a sense in that I think there are circumstances where it's justified for the government to overrule someone's choice about their body
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@thett3
When a 21-year-old Native American woman from Oklahoma was convicted of manslaughter after having a miscarriage, people were outraged. But she was not alone.

Brittney Poolaw was just about four months pregnant when she lost her baby in the hospital in January 2020.

This October, she was convicted and sentenced to four years in prison for the first-degree manslaughter of her unborn son.

3RU7AL
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@thett3
They are linked in a sense in that I think there are circumstances where it's justified for the government to overrule someone's choice about their body
do you believe countries that outlaw abortion have better public health outcomes ?
thett3
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@3RU7AL
When a 21-year-old Native American woman from Oklahoma was convicted of manslaughter after having a miscarriage, people were outraged. But she was not alone.

Brittney Poolaw was just about four months pregnant when she lost her baby in the hospital in January 2020.

This October, she was convicted and sentenced to four years in prison for the first-degree manslaughter of her unborn son.

Okay, and? I'm not in favor of that so it isn't relevant to my position.
thett3
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@3RU7AL
do you believe countries that outlaw abortion have better public health outcomes ?
I believe that many countries which outlaw abortion after the first trimester, such as almost everywhere in Europe have better outcomes than the USA which doesn't, yes
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@thett3
People supporting abortion up to the moment of birth is absolutely insane to me.

Why?  Poor chinese country women have commited murder of their newborns --born out of the womb---  for 100's if not 100's of years because of the financial hardships of not having income producing male off-spring.

The fetus/baby is not truly an independent, individual human until the chord is cut, and the living baby --now not a fetus--- has taken its first in-spirited breath. No breath and the baby does not live.

Until the fetus/baby is born out and the chord is cut, the fetus/baby is an organism of the pregnant woman and she technically should have all the rights to say, whether the baby lives or dies. 

There is old saying, that, you may not be familiar with and, it is just a saying that I new from childhood or teenage years....a father says to son, I brought you into this world and I get to take you out.....so this saying has a ring } degree } of rightgeousness to it that you probably do grasp/consider/comprehend.

An exaggerated example may be of a person who kills others unnecessarily and the father takes actions to prevent this from ever happening again. Yes there is the law in civilized or less civilized countrys that have their own set of laws/codes etc.  This is what movies started doing more and more in 60s, blurring the line via complexity of circumstances.
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@ebuc
The fetus/baby is not truly an independent, individual human until the chord is cut, and the living baby --now not a fetus--- has taken its first in-spirited breath. No breath and the baby does not live.
Babies born at 24 weeks have around a fifty percent chance of survival, around two thirds at 25 weeks and close to nine in ten at 26 weeks. By 30 weeks the probability of surviving outside of the womb is close to 99%. Why the fuck would we prefer to kill babies at that stage of development instead of allowing them to be born? There are forms of abortion where the fetus is viable, still alive when delivery is induced, and killed as it's coming out. Surely you wouldn't be in favor of that? If your standard for correct moral behavior is Maoist China I don't know what to tell you.
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@thett3
Brittney Poolaw was just about four months pregnant when she lost her baby in the hospital in January 2020.
outside of your "first trimester window" and practically indistinguishable from an abortion

and

good to know we can find some common-ground
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It's funny, part of the reason I made this thread is because I'm genuinely undecided on my position on abortion in very early pregnancy (before 10 weeks or so) but the responses from the pro-choice crowd have been so inhuman and unempathetic I'm moving rapidly to the extreme pro-life camp
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@thett3
babies at that stage of development instead of allowing them to be born?
what's your position on providing food and shelter for single mothers ?