January 6th Hearings

Author: Double_R

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@ILikePie5
It’s never a good idea to willingly testify in front of a committee that already has a guilty verdict on you. 
It's never a good idea to testify in front of a committee, period.  Especially one that is wholly unmoored to facts or reality.  
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@Double_R
This is a congressional hearing, not a criminal trial. Innocent until proven guilty are instructions for the jury. It's not reasonable in any sense to apply this to the investigators, if they don't presume anything they have nothing to investigate.
Have you lost whatever semblance of a mind you ever might have had, ever, at any point in your life? In this country, we do not empanel courts of high inquisition.  Every occasion where we have done anything close to that remains in infamy.   

I've got news for you: It turns out that you have a right to a presumption of innocence until proven guilty, without regard to whether you're before a committee or a jury. 







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@coal
Lol, what's the point of investigating Trump if he is presumed guilty? It makes the circus theatrics doubly pointless.
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@Greyparrot
To distract Americans from the spectacular extent of Joe Biden's failures, the magnitude of his incompetence and the depths of his corruption, of course. 
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and the depths of his corruption, of course. 
Hard to tell which is more, the amount of money Biden made off of taxpayers (and is still making) during his long tenure or the amount of money Trump lost in 4 years.
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@Greyparrot
the point here, is that EVEN IFF he was 100% GUILTY, it is a travesty of justice to hold someone "pending trial" for 700 days

especially when the state knew they had no case
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@coal
It turns out that you have a right to a presumption of innocence until proven guilty,
there is a huge difference in the "burden of proof" between criminal and civil trials

not to mention "immigration courts" and "family courts" and "military courts" (which are basically pure scams)
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So where’s the quote where Trump said storm the Capitol and kill Pence. I’ll wait. Because according to the Court, that’s what he needs to do.
This statement pretty much sums it all up.

A post or so ago I used the money laundering example. The point was to illustrate that the conclusion takes multiple steps to get to, the fact that you cannot get there in one fell swoop does not negate the validity of that conclusion. This is basic common sense.

Trump supporters will never accept anything negative about him unless it’s spelled out in the clearest of terms possible all in one sound bite. Unless he stands up and says “I want you to fraudulently steal the election for me” you guys will always pretend his mindset was unclear. It’s beyond pathetic.

And no, this is not a requirement of the court. The requirement is that the jurors use their common sense in the same way that they would in any other situation. If I smiled at your wife, then bought her a drink, then invited her to my place… you wouldn’t need for me to spell out my intentions to know damn well what they were. But when it comes to Trump suddenly it’s impossible to know. That’s ridiculous.

It really says a lot though that you don’t care about the legal nuances.
When we are arguing in a thread about whether Trump should be prosecuted, I will care about and discuss the legal nuances. This is not a thread about Trump’s legal exposure. It’s a thread about what the committee has reveals to the American people and how you as a Trump supporter deals with those facts.

But it seems I already have the answer. Being that you have not once in this thread attempted to engage in the evidence presented against him and how that impacts your attitude towards him as a political leader and instead gone down the rabbit hole of attacking the committee, attacking democrats, and finding legal grounds to dismiss all of it as if this were a criminal trial, it’s clear that the way you deal with these facts is to ignore them.

The fact here is they were illegal and the executives did them anyways in violation of the law. Period. Full stop.
Which is irrelevant to this conversation. The executives are not the ones who decided Joe Biden would get WI’s electoral votes, that decision was made by the people of WI. That’s what this conversation is actually about.

Again, any reasonable interpretation of the phrase “the election was stolen” points to the idea that the candidate the people chose did not come away as the victor. That’s not what happened here, which is why you need to go down this hole of “but the drop boxes”.

Trump lost WI because more legal WI voters decided that they wanted Biden instead. Whether they cast their ballots through the mail, in a drop box, or in person is irrelevant to that fact. I’m sorry you cannot handle that and so you need to find a technicality to disqualify legal WI voters from consideration, but the whole point of elections is for the results to match the will of the people. Until you can argue that that this not happen here the rest of your points are nonsense red herrings.

Ray Epps was a fed who incited the crowd and cause people to break into the Capitol.

Prove:

1. That Ray Epps was working for out with the federal government on January 6th

2. That anyone attacked the US Capitol who would not have if Ray Epps was not present.

You resort to false equivalency fallacies to somehow prove I’m being partisan, when it’s your sides advocacy of the Green New Deal and Medicare for All that…
My sides advocacy? What the hell is that supposed to mean?

In your attempt to swat away the allegation you end up proving it by projecting.

I don’t give a rats ass about sides, I’m arguing what I believe because I find it to be true. My side are those who care about reality, which is why I’m challenging folks who are defending Trump here to make the counter argument, yet all you have is red herrings. That only affirms the point I started off with; his actions are indefensible. If they were defendable, people like you would be able to. But here we are.
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@coal
The issue raised was whether your use of the most inflammatory language you possibly could come up with, in fact, fairly described what happened.
The word mob is the literal definition of what it’s called. That’s not the most inflammatory language I could find, it’s English 101.

Kevin McCarthy called them a mob on the house floor in January 6th. Is he a biased advocate for the left? Or do your rules only apply to me?

If I were using the most inflammatory language I could find I would call them insurrectionists, yet I’ve never used that term on this site to describe them or what happened at the Capitol. Unlike most of the people here I’m actually trying to discuss reality in real, reasonable terms. Just need someone else to do it with.

And even if I fit whatever your visual is off some left wing anti Trump advocate, who the hell cares? The validity of my arguments have nothing to do with my intentions. Anyone who cares about the reality of the situation would focus on what I have to say instead of finding excuses to dismiss it.

If at 2:24, as you claim, a crisis had manifested to such an extent that congressional evacuation was required, would ten minutes later cops be calmly waiving people through the door as if nothing was the matter?  I think not.
And yet this is exactly what happened according to all of the available video footage, for which there is an abundance.

So what do we do with this information? Please explain how you put it together.

And BTW, the timeline I described are easily accessible objectively verifiable facts that have been at the center of this entire conversation for two years now. The fact that you are calling this my claim, or my timeline demonstrates that you have made no effort to understand what happened, which makes this entire discussion all the more remarkable.

Being invited or compelled under duress (read: subpoenaed) to testify is not even remotely close to the same thing as having an opportunity to cross examine a witness who is testifying.  It is clear these basic procedural matters are something you're not familiar with, yet you had the audacity to respond with a declaration of "Bullshit!"
I’ve been on a witness stand a few times before jackass, I know what cross examination is.

Instead of engaging in the technical BS you and your buddies here love to engage in as a distraction from the actual topic, I was addressing the clear insinuation of your comment which is that only one side of the story is being told. This is BS for a number of reasons I already mentioned which you unsurprisingly ignored in your “gotcha” rant.

Whether anyone got to cross examine them is irrelevant to the fact that they have testified and made their story clear under oath. You can either deal with it or ignore it. Clearly, you chose the latter.

I've got news for you: It turns out that you have a right to a presumption of innocence until proven guilty, without regard to whether you're before a committee or a jury.
Once again, the presumption of innocence applies to a jury, judge, or anyone in a position to decide one’s fate in a legal setting. That is not what the committee is.

It sure as hell does not - because it logically can not - apply to those who are investigating you. Anyone who knows anything about investigations knows that in order to open an investigation you need a predicate, which is a reason to believe the person might be guilty of a crime. That nullifies as incompatible the idea of presuming innocence for the committee.

The presumption of innocence also does not mean ignoring the facts and evidence in front of your face. Much of what Trump did he did publicly. The idea that those investigating his actions were at the start supposed to wipe their mind clear of everything they knew in order to conduct a legitimate investigation is beyond stupid.

The case is there. The evidence is there. You’ve presumed innocence. Congratulations. Now look at the evidence and reach a conclusion. When you’re ready to discuss that conclusion I’ll be here.
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@Double_R
This statement pretty much sums it all up.

A post or so ago I used the money laundering example. The point was to illustrate that the conclusion takes multiple steps to get to, the fact that you cannot get there in one fell swoop does not negate the validity of that conclusion. This is basic common sense.
No. This situation is governed by the rules set forth in Brandenburg v Ohio, which clearly is not upheld. Your example is irrelevant because believe it or not, money laundering and incitement are two different crimes with different standards. Not hard to understand.

Trump supporters will never accept anything negative about him unless it’s spelled out in the clearest of terms possible all in one sound bite. Unless he stands up and says “I want you to fraudulently steal the election for me” you guys will always pretend his mindset was unclear. It’s beyond pathetic.
From a legal perspective that’s exactly what they will argue. So essentially what you’re doing I wasting taxpayer money. You’d have to be a fool to think Trump goes to jail over this lol. Your opinion is irrelevant in court because it runs on facts and the law, which once again is governed by Brandenburg b Ohio.

And no, this is not a requirement of the court. The requirement is that the jurors use their common sense in the same way that they would in any other situation. If I smiled at your wife, then bought her a drink, then invited her to my place… you wouldn’t need for me to spell out my intentions to know damn well what they were. But when it comes to Trump suddenly it’s impossible to know. That’s ridiculous.
Yes it is. The Supreme Court explicitly laid out the two part rule for cases of incitement. Once again, you example has zero relevance because Court is clear that the incitement has to be direct, which is definitely not the case here because Trump said to be peaceful lol. Your ignorance of the law is laughable. Analogies don’t work in court. Applicability to the law works in court.

Which is irrelevant to this conversation. The executives are not the ones who decided Joe Biden would get WI’s electoral votes, that decision was made by the people of WI. That’s what this conversation is actually about.
No. The fact is that the executives of Wisconsin usurped the authority of the legislature, and that is a fact. Period. If I allow illegal immigrants to vote as an executive, that’s the “people of Wisconsin” no? Give me a break. Your ignorance of checks and balances within the law is laughable.

Again, any reasonable interpretation of the phrase “the election was stolen” points to the idea that the candidate the people chose did not come away as the victor.
That’s a conclusion a reasonable person could come to if there’s a concerted effort by Democratic executives in key states to change the law unconstitutional to benefit themselves and their party lol.

That’s not what happened here, which is why you need to go down this hole of “but the drop boxes”.
The executives in Wisconsin acted illegally. Because the acted illegally, the election in Wisconsin was technically illegal. That’s pretty reasonable. Once again the fact that you don’t think the executives did anything wrong by doing this shows your fascistic tendencies and complete disregard for checks and balances.

Trump lost WI because more legal WI voters decided that they wanted Biden instead. Whether they cast their ballots through the mail, in a drop box, or in person is irrelevant to that fact.
That’s your fascistic tendencies speaking. If tomorrow the Governor of Wisconsin says I’m going to allow illegals to vote, under your premise you’d be okay with that. Checks and balances exist for a reason. It is completely relevant to the issue of whether the election was unfair.

I’m sorry you cannot handle that and so you need to find a technicality to disqualify legal WI voters from consideration, but the whole point of elections is for the results to match the will of the people.
I’m sorry you think fascistic tendencies by the Governor of Wisconsin are okay. Very ironic.

Until you can argue that that this not happen here the rest of your points are nonsense red herrings.
Calling them red herrings doesn’t make them red herrings. I pointed out evidence that showed the election in Wisconsin was conducted in an illegal fashion per the laws of Wisconsin. You seem to not care about.

Prove:

1. That Ray Epps was working for out with the federal government on January 6th
That’s Congress’s job. Ted Cruz asked the FBI and they refused to answer. I’m all for subpoenaing the FBI to find this out. Are you? 

What’s your explanation for why Ray Epps still hasn’t been charged? I only see one reasonable reason.

2. That anyone attacked the US Capitol who would not have if Ray Epps was not present.
If people weren’t incited, they wouldn’t have attacked? But again it brings us to the point. If there was one fed there, how many were actually there. I want to ask the FBI that. Your sham committee doesn’t.

My sides advocacy? What the hell is that supposed to mean?

In your attempt to swat away the allegation you end up proving it by projecting.
Projecting? I have a clear explanation of why checks and balances within the Constitution don’t allow Trump unilateral power in the District of Columbia. Then I asked you have checks and balances have prevented Joe Biden from preventing the increase of gas prices? Something which you clearly ignore because it doesn’t suit your purpose. You’ve dropped like 50 arguments by now lol.

I don’t give a rats ass about sides, I’m arguing what I believe because I find it to be true.
What you believe is true doesn’t make it true. It’s a fact that DC is within the jurisdiction of Congress. Trump can’t send the NG without permission from Congress or the Mayor. Period.

My side are those who care about reality, which is why I’m challenging folks who are defending Trump here to make the counter argument, yet all you have is red herrings.
Just because you say they’re red herrings doesn’t make them red herrings. I showed you how an election in Wisconsin was conducted under unconstitutional laws, which you don’t care about. Tomorrow if the Governor says I’m only going to allow blacks to vote, you’d be okay with that. The fact you think checks and balances are a red herring just shows your utter disrespect of the Constitution 

That only affirms the point I started off with; his actions are indefensible. If they were defendable, people like you would be able to. But here we are.
His actions were legal and Constitutional protected speech under the premises of Brandenburg v Ohio. Period. Deal with it. Your opinions don’t matter in the law. Applicability matters. 
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@ILikePie5
His actions were legal and Constitutional protected speech under the premises of Brandenburg v Ohio. Period. Deal with it. Your opinions don’t matter in the law. Applicability matters. 
it is NOT a "criminal conspiracy" to organize a protest march
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it is NOT a "criminal conspiracy" to organize a protest march
He’s not going to jail. The committee will either be dissolved or do it a 180 and kick out all the Democrats. See how they like their own medicine
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@3RU7AL
He violated parole and then had documented terrible violent behavior while in prison. Stop with the DINDU worship plse.
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@3RU7AL
there is a huge difference in the "burden of proof" between criminal and civil trials
So you support guilty until proven innocent hearings. Please stop.


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@ILikePie5
He’s not going to jail. The committee will either be dissolved or do it a 180 and kick out all the Democrats. See how they like their own medicine
The J6 committee is functionally the same as a grieving DINDU mother telling the DA what to do. It's pure unadulterated theatre.
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@Greyparrot
He violated parole and then had documented terrible violent behavior while in prison. Stop with the DINDU worship plse.
it's not a "parole violation" unless he is CONVICTED

and there were no charges for "terrible violent behavior while in prison"

otherwise he would have been CONVICTED of "terrible violent behavior"
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@Greyparrot
there is a huge difference in the "burden of proof" between criminal and civil trials
So you support guilty until proven innocent hearings. Please stop.
you're clearly not paying attention

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@3RU7AL
it's not a "parole violation" unless he is CONVICTED
You clearly only read one side of that story, You are doing the same thing DoubleR is doing in this thread, pretending that there is only one side to a story.

Please stop with the confirmation bias. You literally googled for something that supported your bias.
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@Greyparrot
it's not a "parole violation" unless he is CONVICTED
You clearly only read one side of that story, You are doing the same thing DoubleR is doing in this thread, pretending that there is only one side to a story.

Please stop with the confirmation bias. You literally googled for something that supported your bias.
held for 700 days "pending trial" THAT NEVER HAPPENED (because the state had no evidence and therefore no case)

REGARDLESS OF WHETHER HE WAS "INNOCENT" OR "GUILTY"

you're kidding me right ?

are you seriously saying that "oh, he deserved it" ?
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@3RU7AL
are you seriously saying that "oh, he deserved it" ?
I am seriously saying a DINDU article from a biased source like Wikipedia doesn't prove anything but your confirmation bias.

Would you like to know the real story from the other side of the narrative, or is this just your theatre time?
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@Greyparrot
also, he was not incarcerated for "parole violation"

he was denied bail for "potential parole violation"
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@Greyparrot
doesn't prove anything but your confirmation bias.
i'm using this case to illustrate MY GODDAMNED PERSONAL EXPERIENCE

i personally know people who have been arrested and incarcerated for NO CRIME and denied a "court appointed attorney" because they "made too much money"
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@3RU7AL
MY GODDAMNED PERSONAL EXPERIENCE
So what? I was arrested too like you for something I did not do. Turns out it was a case of mistaken identity. Everyone has to deal with outlier shit in their life at one point or another. That does NOT mean we presume guilt over innocence in our hearings and courts.

Do you know why my life story didn't end up with a cord around my neck? Because I didn't make the same choices these DINDUS did to make a bad problem much, much worse. Again, would you like to hear the story from the other side? Or is this just your confirmation bias theatre time like the J6 committee?


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@Greyparrot
the j6 "investigation" is complete bull-shit

i'm simply pointing out that your claim,

You can’t be held for more than a few days without being charged with a crime.
is misleading

this INCLUDES for those being held "pending trial" for j6

parroting  DINDUS DINDUS DINDUS DINDUS DINDUS DINDUS DINDUS doesn't exactly "prove your point"
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is misleading
Your thesis is misleading. If you are in prison and you punch an inmate in the nose, you don't get to complain about the consequences. Including an extended stay.
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@Greyparrot
Your thesis is misleading. If you are in prison and you punch an inmate in the nose, you don't get to complain about the consequences. Including an extended stay.
they were neither charged with nor convicted of assault
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@3RU7AL

In fact he was charged and CONVICTED in 2009 for stealing a bakery truck and he then violated parole. A crime (grand larceny) that had more than a 2 year sentence.

Your thesis is extremely misleading. If you violate the terms of your parole, any judge can order you to an extended stay in prison. Violating a parole has consequences. You clearly did zero research on the other side of this story.
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@Greyparrot
Here is what you can expect if you are arrested for an alleged parole violation: After an arrest, a CDCR parole agent can place you on “hold” — meaning he or she can place you in jail until further proceedings take place. Once you are on “hold,” parole staff decides if there is “good cause” to believe that you violated a law or parole condition. [**]

he was not convicted for "parole violation"

he was not being held for "parole violation"

his parole agent placed his status "on hold" for a POTENTIAL parole violation

he was held "pending a trial that never happened"
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@3RU7AL
he was not convicted for "parole violation"
You don't get convicted for that. You get sentenced. If a parole officer reasonably believes a parolee has violated a condition of their release, the Board of Parole can issue an arrest warrant. The individual will be held without bail while the warrant is in effect, pending an outcome of the violation. You clearly have not done any due diligence on the other side of this story.

he was not being held for "parole violation"
Your confirmation biased Wikisource says the exact opposite.

 You clearly did zero research on the other side of this story. Playing Devil's advocate actually helps you grow wiser.

What is so sad is that there are a lot of people with confirmation bias that have no clue how the parole system works, and do not understand why people MUST be held accountable for choosing to VIOLATE their parole in a functioning society.
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@Greyparrot
the Board of Parole can issue an arrest warrant.
this never happened