There’s No Objective Evidence the Federal “Assault Weapons” Ban Saved Lives - Just Facts Daily

Author: Public-Choice

Posts

Total: 85
Public-Choice
Public-Choice's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 1,035
3
4
8
Public-Choice's avatar
Public-Choice
3
4
8
By James D. Agresti, President of Just Facts
June 15, 2022

“For the children we can save,” declared President Biden on June 2, “we should reinstate the assault weapons ban and high-capacity magazines that we passed in 1994.” To support this claim, Biden alleged:
And in the 10 years it was law, mass shootings went down. But after Republicans let the law expire in 2004 and those weapons were allowed to be sold again, mass shootings tripled. Those are the facts.
In reality, Biden is confusing terms and distorting data to paint a picture that is opposed to the facts. Such facts include but are not limited to the following:
  • The number of people killed in mass shootings didn’t decline even after the 1986 federal ban on automatic guns, which are more capable of mass murder than the guns Biden wants to ban.
  • The terms “assault weapons” and “high-capacity magazines” are misleading and refer to common weapons used by citizens for hunting and home defense.
  • Before, during, and after the 1994 law cited by Biden, the portion of the U.S. population killed in mass shootings barely budged, and the slight changes are better explained by other factors.

Public-Choice
Public-Choice's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 1,035
3
4
8
Public-Choice's avatar
Public-Choice
3
4
8
Public Mass Shootings in the United States: Selected Implications for Federal Public Health and Safety Policy

Congressional Research Service
March 18, 2013 – April 16, 2013

Selected section:

Intelligence-Led Policing and Fusion Centers
Gunmen involved in public mass shootings may not be targets easily preempted from wrongdoing by intelligence-led policing. However, there still may be roles that fusion centers55 can play in countering this threat. (Such centers have been highlighted as tools to enhance intelligence-led policing.) Fusion centers may be able to help contextualize this issue. For instance, the Commonwealth Fusion Center based in Massachusetts launched the "Targeting Violent Crime Initiative," sponsored by DOJ, to examine firearms offenses in Massachusetts. This effort has focused on issues such as determining the source of firearms used in gun crimes in Massachusetts; understanding potential links between the illegal gun markets; and delving into gun crime trends throughout the state.56 As such, policy makers may be interested in whether fusion centers have anything to offer in the way of intelligence-led policing to address mass shootings.
Based in part on community policing and problem solving efforts, intelligence-led policing initiatives, originally developed in Great Britain, have emerged throughout the nation.57 After 9/11, intelligence operations were transformed at the federal level as well as at the state and local levels. More and more, intelligence-led policing is not a single methodology, but a framework that encompasses much of modern operational police activity.58 Similar to community policing, intelligence-led policing relies upon information input (as the basis for intelligence analysis), two-way communications with the public, scientific data analysis (using the basic formula that information plus analysis equals intelligence), and problem solving.59
The impact of intelligence-led policing cannot yet be fully evaluated because "long term studies of police forces that have fully implemented and adopted intelligence-led policing have yet to be conducted."60 Further, like research on community policing efforts, available information on intelligence-led policing does not address whether intelligence-led policing may be an effective approach to use in addressing mass shootings.
Using intelligence-led policing to thwart mass shooters may be especially challenging for a number of reasons.
  • Mass shooters most often act alone and share few of their plans with others.61 Typically, they do not engage in ongoing conspiracies that can be infiltrated by undercover police officers or monitored by informants.62
  • There may be too few public mass shooting incidents to establish detailed geographic patterns (hot spots) for law enforcement to exploit.63
Offender Profiling for Public Mass Shootings: Not a Preventive Tool
Researchers and policy makers have questioned whether law enforcement can develop a profile of a mass shooter to help identify at-risk individuals before a shooting incident occurs. No effective mass shooter profile exists for law enforcement to use to proactively identify potential suspects. One researcher has succinctly noted that "the predictors [for mass murder] are invariably far more common than the event we hope to predict, and mass murder is very rare. Although mass murderers often do exhibit bizarre behavior, most people who exhibit bizarre behavior do not commit mass murder."64 Aside from usually, but not always, being male, there are few other characteristics found across mass murderers that would be reliable or valid for creating a general profile for individuals most likely to engage in a public mass shooting. This also holds true when examining individuals who carry out mass shootings in specific settings; for instance, "[t]here is no accurate or useful profile of 'the school shooter'."65
Also of note, criminal profiling is generally utilized after a crime has been committed, and not usually as a preventive tool.66 In the course of investigating serial crimes by a repeat offender such as a serial murderer, it could be utilized as a proactive tool to narrow the pool of potential offenders before a subsequent crime is committed. However, because mass shooters generally do not have the opportunity to commit a second crime—they are most typically either killed or captured after the mass shooting—investigative analysis would most commonly be employed after the mass shooting to understand how it happened rather than as a tool to identify potential shooters before an incident occurs.
All of this does not mean that preventing public mass shootings is wholly beyond the scope of federal law enforcement. For instance, to enhance law enforcement efforts in the violent crime domain, DHS, DOJ, and the FBI have been working to "identify measures that could be taken to reduce the risk of mass casualty shootings."67

Public-Choice
Public-Choice's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 1,035
3
4
8
Public-Choice's avatar
Public-Choice
3
4
8
Gun Control
By ProCon.org last updated: 6/27/22

The United States has 120.5 guns per 100 people, or about 393,347,000 guns, which is the highest total and per capita number in the world. 22% of Americans own one or more guns (35% of men and 12% of women). America’s pervasive gun culture stems in part from its colonial history, revolutionary roots, frontier expansion, and the Second Amendment, which states: “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

Proponents of more gun control laws state that the Second Amendment was intended for militias; that gun violence would be reduced; that gun restrictions have always existed; and that a majority of Americans, including gun owners, support new gun restrictions.

Opponents say that the Second Amendment protects an individual’s right to own guns; that guns are needed for self-defense from threats ranging from local criminals to foreign invaders; and that gun ownership deters crime rather than causes more crime.

PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Public-Choice
I think you see proof here how little liberals consider their opinions. Not a single one could make a good argument against this, which is why they refrained from coming in this thread 
Public-Choice
Public-Choice's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 1,035
3
4
8
Public-Choice's avatar
Public-Choice
3
4
8
-->
@Wylted
Remember that the absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence.

It could have been too much reading. It could have been they all agree with these specific points but disagree on others not brought up in the sources. Or it could be as you say, that they have no argument so they decided not to try.

I know Oromagi is busy with 4 or 5 other forum posts and at least one debate. He is the main poster in the forums, at least from my anecdotal observances.
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Public-Choice
I know Oromagi is busy with 4 or 5 other forum posts and at least one debate. He is the main poster in the forums, at least from my anecdotal observances.
Yeah, he has a lot of free time. I don't know what his political ideology is. Probably something close to Hillary Clinton and George Bush who only differ on cosmetic issues
Public-Choice
Public-Choice's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 1,035
3
4
8
Public-Choice's avatar
Public-Choice
3
4
8
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
Welp. According to his profile he is a Liberal Catholic.

I would say that is accurate from the posts I've read by him.
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@Public-Choice
According to his profile he is a Liberal Catholic.

So liberal Catholic means he  half asses religion by trusting his judgement over God's when it comes to things like whether murdering infants is ethical.
sadolite
sadolite's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,865
3
2
4
sadolite's avatar
sadolite
3
2
4
I thought that it was established that there are no objective facts. There are only beliefs and perspectives. 
Public-Choice
Public-Choice's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 1,035
3
4
8
Public-Choice's avatar
Public-Choice
3
4
8
-->
@sadolite
I thought that it was established that there are no objective facts. There are only beliefs and perspectives. 
Let's just break down what that means.

The statement "there are no objective facts" would be an objective fact, which renders the statement itself false. So this means there are objective facts.

Now, you could counter with "there are no objective facts but this one." But once again, the statement would be an objective fact that limits objective facts to that statement, which would once again render itself false, since that one objective fact would be an objective fact which makes "there are no objective facts" false once again.

So it is logically impossible that there are no objective facts.

Even additionally to this one, the concept of reality is simply "what exists." Even if we are living in a hallucination or a computer program, for instance, the computer program and hallucination exist, therefore they are real. And if it is real, then it can be quantified, qualified, and explained. A hallucination is a form of existence, so it is reality. The reality of that hallucination may simply be contained to that hallucination, but it is still reality in that it exists. The same is true for the computer program analogy. Even if we are living in a computer program, that is still an existence, so therefore it is a reality. And it therefore can be quantified, qualified, and explained.

Therefore, there are objective facts about any sort of existence.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,223
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Public-Choice
Objectivity is subjectivity dressed up.

The moment that we convert stored data to thought to narrative.


Public-Choice
Public-Choice's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 1,035
3
4
8
Public-Choice's avatar
Public-Choice
3
4
8
-->
@zedvictor4
No it isn't. Words have meanings. Meanings convey particulars. Particulars convey syllogisms. Syllogisms convey logic. Logic conveys consistency, and consistency conveys truth.

So if we agree that things can be defined, then we must ultimately agree that truth can be conveyed.

This was the whole point of Socrates debating Meno. If certain things hold inherent definitions by nature of their existence, then there is objective truth. And that objective truth can be quantified, qualified, and explained.

If A = B, and B = C, then A is ALWAYS C. Likewise to the contrapositive of that statement.

If things hold inherent descriptors about themselves, then they hold inherent definitions. And if they hold inherent definitions, then it is possible to know objective truth.

Now, people will regularly bias their understanding of the truth with subjective inferences, but those inferences do not change the inherency of reality.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Public-Choice
No it isn't. Words have meanings. Meanings convey particulars. Particulars convey syllogisms. Syllogisms convey logic. Logic conveys consistency, and consistency conveys truth.
ok,

let's not forget about HUME'S GUILLOTINE
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@sadolite
I thought that it was established that there are no objective facts. There are only beliefs and perspectives. 
not quite

science, physics, and mathematics (REAL-TRUE-FACTS) are empirically demonstrable and or logically necessary (and emotionally meaningless) QUANTA

unscientific knowledge (OPINION) is experiential, private, gnostic, unfalsifiable, intuitive (and emotionally meaningful) QUALIA

let's not forget about HUME'S GUILLOTINE
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@zedvictor4
Objectivity is subjectivity dressed up.
exactly
Public-Choice
Public-Choice's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 1,035
3
4
8
Public-Choice's avatar
Public-Choice
3
4
8
-->
@3RU7AL
I fail to see the connection between a syllogism and Hume's Guillotine. My statements were saying that if something is real, then it can be defined, and therefore there are objective facts about it.

Logic is a science like any other. It relies on experimentation and hypotheses and facts and data.

Hume's Guillotine simply says we shouldn't "fill in the blanks" with our own opinions when there is no cause for it. But Aristotle's term logic makes it plain that there is a system where we are not deriving subjective opinions but rather true extensions of objects to each other.

In other words, Hume was pointing out that people substitute indictive logic for deductive logic and that, unless one says "probably" before their inductive conclusion, they are committing a fallacy.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,223
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Public-Choice
I know what you are saying.

Nonetheless all organic data is subject to the same processes.

This site is full of assumed fact and assumed counter-fact.

Socrates and Meno were not exceptions.....Just notable but equally fallible persons of their time.
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,243
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@Public-Choice
“For the children we can save,” declared President Biden on June 2, “we should reinstate the assault weapons ban and high-capacity magazines that we passed in 1994.”

1} Do all 238 million adult citizens in USA need and  assault weapon and or high capactiy magazines?

2} why was the assault weapon law ever instated in first place?

3} why was it ever taken out of law?

4} if the gun is more powerful every way, doesnt that make it more easily to kill people easier, and from distances further way?

5} arent more powerful guns more valuable and potential black market item to those who would steal?

6} does every citizen a need a more powerful weapon in their home, auto, RV, their body, public bus, train, plane, boat, etc?

7} why not make machine guns legal for every citizen?

8} why not make hand grenades legal for every citizen?

9) why not continue on the path of number 7 and above?

10} why do we need laws about guns/weapons?

11} why cant we go back to the good ole days of 1800's or 1700's  with our modern day arsenals for all citizens?

12} cant we have something similar to no-fault insurance for all citizens?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Public-Choice
I fail to see the connection between a syllogism and Hume's Guillotine. My statements were saying that if something is real, then it can be defined, and therefore there are objective facts about it.
and i'm pointing out

that "facts" are (emotionally) meaningless by definition

hume's guillotine makes this perfectly clear

by drawing a bright line between "facts" (IS) and "meaningfulness" (OUGHT)
Public-Choice
Public-Choice's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 1,035
3
4
8
Public-Choice's avatar
Public-Choice
3
4
8
-->
@3RU7AL
I think we are working under different definitions of meaning.

When I say meaning, I mean definition 4b in Merriam Websters:

the logical denotation or extension of a word or phrase [1]

Whereas I think you mean 4a:

the logical connotation of a word or phrase [1]

Hume's Guillotine does NOT claim there are no denotations. It claims that we can't call connotations denotations. At least as I understand Hume's Guillotine.

All I'm saying is, if objects hold inherent qualities about them, then we can define those qualities and therefore have meanings (in the 4b sense).

Actually... I realize I was using the wrong word this whole time!!! Whenever I said "qualify" I meant "qualitate." I can see how the conversation went this direction now lol.

One such way of definition is through empirical analysis. But qualitative research provides connotations which can then be fact checked with denotations (e.g. syllogistically looking at the connotation to see if it is logical). Qualitation is not the same as quantification (solely definitions), qualitation is always speculative and guesswork.  It is a form of inductive reasoning. [2] But using syllogisms and term logic, one can arrive at meanings and new truths about the life, assuming the premises are true.

SOURCES:


Public-Choice
Public-Choice's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 1,035
3
4
8
Public-Choice's avatar
Public-Choice
3
4
8
-->
@ebuc
The answer to many of those questions are in the sources I cited in the initial posts.
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,243
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@Public-Choice
The answer to many of those questions are in the sources I cited in the initial posts.
Ok so in this thread you started, you  cannot personally answer even one of the questions posed to you. So I will make it easier for you, and just select the last three on my list of questions.

10} why do we need laws about guns/weapons?

11} why cant we go back to the good ole days of 1800's , 1700's, 1600's etc  with our modern day arsenals for all citizens?

12} cant we have something similar to no-fault insurance  --like with car insurance---   with guns  for all citizens?

3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Public-Choice
Actually... I realize I was using the wrong word this whole time!!! Whenever I said "qualify" I meant "qualitate." I can see how the conversation went this direction now lol.
QUANTA versus QUALIA
Public-Choice
Public-Choice's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 1,035
3
4
8
Public-Choice's avatar
Public-Choice
3
4
8
-->
@ebuc
I did answer most of them, in the text I posted. Lol

To answer those 3 specifically:

10: because without any laws, and having a federal government, they will invent reasons to take them. So we need amendments to protect them.

11: I am completely for it. Having a gun doesnt mean a person will use it violently. Bad actors, as has been proven every single year, will use illegal weapons for bad reasons anyways. So why not level the playing field?

12: This I'm against. Because without consequences for actions, most people will just commit the actions.
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,243
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@Public-Choice
10: because without any laws, and having a federal government, they will invent reasons to take them. So we need amendments to protect them.
It appears the only laws your concern with regarding guns, is laws  that attmpt to take any kind of gun away from any{?} and all{?} citizens? Correct?

So people suspected of violence due to mental instability, or prior acts of agression or threats towards others --- a developed pattern of this type of behavior--- are not part of you concern?

11: I am completely for it. Having a gun doesnt mean a person will use it violently. Bad actors, as has been proven every single year, will use illegal weapons for bad reasons anyways. So why not level the playing field?
If my above reply, if here considered in your answer to 11 above, as well as those not shown prone to uneccessay violent agressive activities, your find with one party,---sane or not--- having enough money to own a tank, --M61 Vulcan-gatlin gun LINK, machine gun, hand-grenades etc--- on their premise, and pointed at their neighbor, is fine and dandy scenario for you in any country in the world?

I mean this is obviously not a level playing field, sort of like these people who drive their cars --or huge trucks--- on roadway running over pedestrians, intentionally.  How about level playing field where all that is allowed is limited, single per time period shot pistols of some limited clip ---and allowed many clips---  or similar rifle version is all that is sold to citizens?

12: This I'm against. Because without consequences for actions, most people will just commit the actions.
It appears that if two, or more, people get into an argument, and fighting, shooting breaks out, where niether party backs away in retreat, if one is injured or killed by a gun, weapon etc, they along with there no-fault insurance will pay off damages, is not ok with you? Correct.

An lets saying there on your same " level playing field ".  I,e, there is no bad actors, just two people in conflict over something stated, or whatever?



Public-Choice
Public-Choice's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 1,035
3
4
8
Public-Choice's avatar
Public-Choice
3
4
8
-->
@ebuc
So people suspected of violence due to mental instability, or prior acts of agression or threats towards others --- a developed pattern of this type of behavior--- are not part of you concern?
My first question would be, why does owning a gun inherently mean a person will use it improperly? All acts of aggression are not the same. Rape is a form of violence, and rape is committed without weapons all the time. Virtually every crime out there is successfully completed without weapons regularly. They are also completed WITH weapons regularly. So it isn't the owning of the weapon that causes a crime. It is the mindset of wanting to commit a crime.

Additionally, why do you believe some people should not have a right to self defense because of their previous decisions which they have paid their societal dues for? That is unfair to the people who agreed to the social contract, served their time, and are now released. Should only certain people be given the right to life (essentially, because if you determine who is and is not allowed to defend themselves then you determine who is and is not allowed to be alive) based on previous actions? What if the assault charge was unfounded and the person was framed? Should that person be barred from a gun for the rest of their lives? What about if the developed pattern was 20 years ago and the person has not committed an aggressive act ever since? Or what if they renounced their prior life and joined the foreign legion? Should they own a gun then? What if they became a soldier? Should they have access to a gun then? 

Also, who is to say the government will properly use the mental illness category? It is already apparent they have abused drug laws, background checks, search warrants, and other such laws put in place "for people's safety." Who is to say that Conservatism or Liberalism will not be classified a mental disorder and therefore a reason not to own a gun? We already have seen published journal articles and serious works by psychologists making arguments that both conservatism and liberalism are mental disorders for reasons described in those papers. [1] [2] What if the government latches onto this and says "All Conservatives (or Liberals) are mentally unfit for gun ownership?"

Now, in cases where a person makes documented threats? Nah fam. Threats are actual evidence of probable harm to someone. If a person threatens violence onto someone else, that is a violation of the voluntaryist code, that all civic life is free of coercion. It also violates the social contract as laid out in 1776, that a person is free to pursue life, liberty, and happiness. Threats are obviously a hindrance to this social contract.

on their premise, and pointed at their neighbor
Once again, it is the "pointed at their neighbor" part that makes this an illegal act. Pointing a weapon at someone is a threat of violence. However, mere ownership of the weapon is not. If a person owns a tank but does not point it facing anyone, then where is the threat to violence? Why do we suddenly assume a person who owns a weapon will go on a killing spree? The ownership of the weapon does not change the person's intentions. Now, if they begin pointing their weapons at people and being dicks with their weapons, then that is threatening people and therefore a justifiable reason for their weapons to be taken away, because they have initiated threats against people or at minimum displayed gross negligence with their weapons that could involuntarily harm someone else.

SOURCES:
Public-Choice
Public-Choice's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 1,035
3
4
8
Public-Choice's avatar
Public-Choice
3
4
8
-->
@ebuc
FWIW, I think that liberals and conservatives alike are brainwashed by cult propaganda techniques. I used to be a die-hard paleoconservative until I started hanging around anarcho-capitalists. I am not an an-cap. I'm a voluntaryist, but the point is that I was so brainwashed that I would automatically dismiss anything that sounded like liberal-speak from even being considered in my mind and I would automatically ignore anyone who cited WaPo or NY Times as a source on principle that it was 100% anti-Trump.

Most of the liberals I run into do the same thing. They also will shut off their brains the second someone says "capitalism" or "free market" or "constitutional rights" or "Trump."

This is due to thought-stopping, [1] which is used by both the Left and the Right. It is a cult propaganda technique that was discovered by Steve Hassan. [2] Honestly, if you read Hassan's BITE model [2] and then take a hard look at the way the news and political discourse in America is, you'll notice a lot of similarities on both sides of the isle.

Nowadays, I try to do my best to give the other side a shot if they can bring up primary sources, because I know both sides are regularly engaging in cult propaganda techniques to brainwash their supporters. But if a news article cannot actually cite any evidence I can look at, then I simply stop reading altogether because, you know, how can I possibly know if it is true or not?

On the left, I would have to say the most factual outlet is probably Mother Jones. Now, I don't like 99% of what Mother Jones puts out, but most of the time they actually cite their sources and do some real research. They often cite sources with horrible methodology or blatant cherry-picking, but they are citing sources nonetheless. On the right, The Epoch Times has been extremely thorough on their source materials. They will almost always link to the original source they are reporting on. Once again, the source will often have a bias, but they cite sources nonetheless.

Some website I generally avoid are CNN, AP, Fox News, NY Times, WaPo, OANN, Newsmax, and most other mainstream news websites, because most of the articles fail basic tests of evidence. Or if they do cite evidence, it is often a single source that is extremely biased (but once again this doesn't mean the source is wrong), or an anonymous source, which can't be verified.

SOURCES:
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Public-Choice
FWIW, I think that liberals and conservatives alike are brainwashed by cult propaganda techniques.
Public-Choice
Public-Choice's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 1,035
3
4
8
Public-Choice's avatar
Public-Choice
3
4
8
-->
@3RU7AL
Interesting post, but I think this guy is in a cult of no work.

He assumes that "a job" means that work is bad, which is stupid. Humans are literally built for work. We do work all the time. We just don't necessarily do work that gives us money all the time.

He also argues that the far-left and far-right are not brainwashed. I argue this isn't the case. Socialists, for instance, keep wanting to try a failed political ideology because it sounds good to them. Anarcho-capitalists, on the other hand, want to create a world where there is absolutely no oversight of anything. They think the free market will magically work out ownership of nukes, people collectively banning together and controlling the resources, and that everyone will just magically adhere to the non-aggression policy and go to some sort of arbitration rather than engage in shootouts in the streets.

Both of those are also types of brainwashing.

Voluntaryists, on the other hand, don't try to tell people what type of government structure they should have. They only argue that, whatever government structure it is, it should be voluntary participation. Someone is free to leave just as soon as join without any punishment. But if they choose not to leave, then they must adhere to the government or society they joined.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Public-Choice
Someone is free to leave just as soon as join without any punishment. But if they choose not to leave, then they must adhere to the government or society they joined.
just like the amish