Pro-Life without God

Author: Uragirimono
Religion
Abortion
pro-life
pro-choice

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Total: 174
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#31
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@Swagnarok
I do believe morality exists. 
I don't believe your morality allows you to dictate my life. 

Perhaps I should clarify my point. If your definition of pro-life is "I personally would never have an abortion" then we don't really have a disagreement. You do you, I'll do me, life goes on. 

But pro-life in as much as "I will dictate how other women are treated" then it becomes my business, because your morality is now making decisions for me. What morality do you appeal to that allows you to make decisions for others about things that will never affect you personally?
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#32
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@Greyparrot
Again, my sex choices are completely mine and I will not entertain suggestions. 


Why do I have to have sex in a way you approve of in order to maintain my own bodily autonomy?
#33
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@Uragirimono
I do believe morality exists. 
I don't believe your morality allows you to dictate my life. 

You appear to be raising some kind of non-aggression principle, which fails because abortion is a question of "dictating someone else's life" (killing a human). If objective morality means using laws to thwart actions which harm other people, then there must be laws against abortion.

What morality do you appeal to that allows you to make decisions for others about things that will never affect you personally?
I am a white person. By your logic, why should I support laws against lynching black people?
#34
IwantRooseveltagain
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@Polytheist-Witch
Good luck. Atheists are liars and never give straight answers. 
You mean atheists don’t tell the truth like the very religious Donald Trump?

We all know Trump is so religious and so so honest.

#35
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@Uragirimono
Actually, especially in a left wing society, that smoker has now wasted vital taxpayer-funded resources by their lifestyle decision.

So, even more so in a caring society, the chronic smoker should be shunned (not bullied but definitely made to feel regret for what they did).

More important than shaming is awareness. When it comes to safe sex, conservatives backfire their plans by making foreplay and safe sex a taboo topic. That is why conservative cultures worldwide have by far the most severe degree of unwanted pregnancies until they do some one child policy type thing.
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#36
Uragirimono
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@Swagnarok


Two people exist. Person A will die without the use of Person B's liver. Person B refuses because the process will cause risk and harm to themselves. Is Person B "killing a human" in your morality by making the choices that are best for their body? Should they have the legal recourse to make such decision in the first place?
#37
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@Swagnarok
 If objective morality means using laws to thwart actions which harm other people, then there must be laws against abortion.
A fetus is not a person. Life does not begin at ejaculation.

Your comment could be used to justify National gun control laws.

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#38
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@RationalMadman
We can shun the cancer patient all we want -- that patient is still getting treatment. 

If abortion were allowed, I would not argue against the shunning of women who get it. The point is that the cancer patient gets treatment despite their decision and the pregnant person does not. Please explain why. 

I agree conservative approaches to sex education are miserable. Knowing that, I'm confused as to why you think abortion should be outlawed when so many people aren't given the information they need to make intelligent decisions for their bodies. 
#39
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@Uragirimono
Person B has no responsibility to Person A in this scenario. Or at least, that's the obvious assumption. It doesn't apply to the parent-and-child relationship.

Furthermore, about 750,000 people die prematurely from overwork each year, which is more than 2,000 people a day. Many of these were fathers either desperate to provide for their children or eager to supply them with a certain quality of life. The kind of sacrifice you're describing is far less unthinkable than you're supposing.
#40
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Life does not begin at ejaculation.
Of course not. It begins with the fertilization of sperm and egg, which albeit normally follows ejaculation.

Your comment could be used to justify National gun control laws.
A gun is a tool, as are the scalpels and forceps used to dismember babies. The only thing banned is an illicit use of a tool, such as murder. And guess what: it's already illegal to use guns in that way.
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#41
Uragirimono
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@Swagnarok
You say" Person B has no responsibility to Person A in this scenario. Or at least, that's the obvious assumption. It doesn't apply to the parent-and-child relationship."

It does apply to the parent-and-child relationship. If Person B is my dad and Person A is me, do you believe my dad is killing me (and should be legally allowed to kill me) by denying me his liver? 

Whatever the level of sacrifice, I don't owe it to anyone. If I choose such sacrifice then yes, no problem. If such sacrificed is forced on me, I have bene violated. If these fathers you mentioned were forced to work til they died then they were violated. If mothers are forced to give birth and they die, they were violated. It's not an either/or situation. No one should be forced to sacrifice when they don't want to.
#42
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@Uragirimono
Again, my sex choices are completely mine and I will not entertain suggestions. 
Interesting. That's the exact argument child molesters and rapists use; but society has reasons for restricting behaviors driven by natural urges.

Would you not encourage a mechanical substitution for a child rapist?
#43
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@Uragirimono
If Person B is my dad and Person A is me, do you believe my dad is killing me (and should be legally allowed to kill me) by denying me his liver? 
If we amend the scenario, by saying that your dad only has a microscopic fraction of a chance of dying or of suffering any serious permanent health condition, then yes. He should have to do it. "Life of the mother" is one of those iffier abortion questions that nobody has an easy answer to, but that question only pops up in a fraction of all pregnancies.

If I choose such sacrifice then yes, no problem.
If you consensually took the risk of a person entering the world through your actions, then you did in fact choose the sacrifice in question.
I don't believe that there ought to be an abortion exception for rape, but in any case we should be able to agree on this when it comes to 95-99% of pregnancies which didn't involve rape or coercion.

No one should be forced to sacrifice when they don't want to.
This is nothing if not extreme. If a parent flat out doesn't want to work though able, should they be allowed to abandon their 2 year old?

#44
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@Swagnarok
How does one become an atheist tomorrow?

Or identify as a Christian for that matter.

And an embryo is not a baby

And most theists are as selectively moral as most atheists are.
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#45
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@Greyparrot
I would encourage child rapists and molestors to remember that consent is required for any sexual activity.
They cannot legally have sex with children because children cannot consent. 
Beyond that what they do is up to them. 

Consent must be given to someone, as two adults who say "yes" to each other before having sex. 
Who do I give my consent to pregnancy to?

#46
IwantRooseveltagain
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@Swagnarok
A gun is a tool, as are the scalpels and forceps used to dismember babies. The only thing banned is an illicit use of a tool, such as murder. And guess what: it's already illegal to use guns in that way.
That would mean that you believe the only way to prevent harm to people is to make it unlawful. And that would of course be nonsense.

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#47
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@Swagnarok
"If we amend the scenario, by saying that your dad only has a microscopic fraction of a chance of dying or of suffering any serious permanent health condition, then yes. He should have to do it."

Who in this scenario do we allow to define the risks? Who determines if the chance is microscopic or greater?

"If you consensually took the risk of a person entering the world through your actions, then you did in fact choose the sacrifice in question."

Again I ask, who am I giving my consent to pregnancy to?

"This is nothing if not extreme. If a parent flat out doesn't want to work though able, should they be allowed to abandon their 2 year old?"

Parents have legal options to forfeit their parental responsibilities. We can judge those people, but they still have the freedom to choose those legal options. Pregnant people do not have legal options to choose from in places where abortion is legal, so these are not equal comparisons.


#48
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@Uragirimono
 consent is required for any sexual activity.
Obviously this is not the case. Much sex that happens isn't consented, and is not required.

Again, if you ask a rapist, he will also say, my body my choice.

I will ask you this again:

Would you not encourage a mechanical substitution for a child rapist?
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#49
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@Greyparrot
"My body, my choice" stops at my bodily autonomy. Your bodily autonomy stops where mine starts. 

I'm not addressing your vibrator question any long, as it's gotten so far removed from the original topic that it's pointless. 
#50
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@Uragirimono
I'm not addressing your vibrator question any long, as it's gotten so far removed from the original topic that it's pointless. 

Did you not ask for alternatives for a behavior that leads to abortion?
#51
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@Uragirimono
I was a pro-life Christian. 
I am no longer pro-life nor Christian. 
After you lost your faith you also became anti pro-life. So you are an abortionist by spite.

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#52
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@Greyparrot
My exact question was "So how am I to act on my instinct to not reproduce if I am denied abortion care?"


Meaning "if I am pregnant right now and don't want to be, what options do I have?"
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#53
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@Shila
Spite directed towards whom?
#54
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@Shila
Spite directed towards whom?

I was a pro-life Christian.
I am no longer pro-life nor Christian
After you lost your faith you also became anti pro-life. So you are an abortionist by spite.
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#55
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@Shila
I didn't disagree, I asked for clarification. 
If spite is my motivator, whom am I spiteful towards?
#56
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@Uragirimono
--> @Shila
I didn't disagree, I asked for clarification. 
If spite is my motivator, whom am I spiteful towards?
The obvious impact of your change was on Christians.
I was a pro-life Christian.
I am no longer pro-life nor Christian
Why do you think Abortion will reduce pro-life Christians?
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#57
Uragirimono
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@Shila
"The obvious impact of your change was on Christians."
What impact did I have on Christians by leaving their faith?

"Why do you think abortion will reduce pro-life Christians?"
I've never framed abortion as reducing any population. I don't understand this question.
#58
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The pro-life position is predicated on biology and embryology, not religion. 
#59
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@Bones
The pro-life position is predicated on biology and embryology, not religion. 
Actually Abortion was based on science and biology which calculated fetus viability.

3 key facts about fetal viability and its pivotal role in US abortion laws
Fetal viability refers to how soon a fetus can be born and survive outside of its mother's womb.
Fetal viability is typically set at 23 weeks of gestation but varies depending on certain factors.
Currently, 18 states have tried to ban abortion before viability including Mississippi and Texas.

Pro-life position was based on religion.


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#60
Uragirimono
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@Bones
So using biology and embryology, explain why my uterus should be subject to laws forcing me to share it outside of my consent when no other organ undergoes such legislation.