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Uragirimono
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@Lemming
You're the first one to actually try to give me an example of a mother offing her kid a week before birth, so I congratulate on that. 
Unfortunately, an article about a serial killer than only mentions the occurrence of "late-term abortions" does nothing to tell us why the women had the abortions, whether the fetuses were compatible with life,  or any of the other details that would prove women routinely off their children for no other reason than funsies two days before their due date.

And the slippery slope argument has been a favorite for those against change as long as change has been a thing. I was raised conservative, and the slippery slope was the reason we couldn't make gay marriage legal, the reason we couldn't have a black president, the reason we couldn't add the covid vaccine to the long list of already required vaccines for healthcare workers, etc. Not one of the doomsday prophesies these slippery slopers made came true when the change they feared occurred, so to be frank, I don't care about any slippery slope. It's another thing pro-lifers cling to in order to justify their beliefs when faced with current reality.
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@ahiyah
You don't think pregnancy and childbirth are normal occurrences?

I don't think any one experience of pregnancy and childbirth is the universal norm. One woman may have a beautiful pregnancy with zero lasting effects and another may end up crippled for life. The entire spectrum of pregnancy experience is valid and must be considered in discussions of abortion.

Saying that pregnancy does not result in harm to your body is a *factual* thing to say because in the majority of instances, it does not.
Now I'm just starting to think you don't know what words mean. Your statement of "in the majority of instances, it does not" result in harm factually proves that sometimes it does result in harm. Sure, if it makes you feel better to consider it that minority of cases I don't care at this point, but even you agree that in a minority of cases, pregnancy causes harm. It is therefore a true statement to say "Pregnancy can cause harm." I am not saying in the majority of pregnancies the woman is harmed. I am saying sometimes pregnancies cause harm.  To be clear, the definition of harm is "physical injury". Pregnancy can cause physical injury is a fact whether you personally were harmed or not.


If I had to compare the U.S to my country, I would say that without a doubt, the U.S is better. Wages are better, free speech is better, education (I think) is better, it is more geographically diverse, and is fairly cheap (in comparison to my country) in many areas. Countries that criticize the U.S for dispensing with Roe v. Wade ought to look at their own problems, which in my view are great and many. 
I don't know how to speak to this without knowing where you live, but suffice it to say that I am American, and am therefore looking at Roe v Wade as my own country's problem.


Really? If your friends in Saudi Arabia have better access to abortion than you, I can only conclude that they or their babies have/had physical or mental impairments because those are the only instances where abortion is allowed. If there is no risk to the mother's life, it is illegal in Saudi Arabia.

You're welcome to read the below article for proof that parts of the US have more restrict abortion laws than Saudi Arabia. I'm not going to walk you through it as I assume you can read this for yourself. 


If you really want to know how many people are against abortion in every U.S state, you can view this source:

I did view this source. 28 out of 50 states had a 50% or greater percent of their surveyed population saying abortion should be legal in all or most cases. Again, you offer me evidence of my own point -- most Americans support abortion. 

I have decided that as a parent, I have less value than my children. I would even say that every child, and certainly baby, has more value than me.
How wonderful for you that you were allowed to make this decision. How tough it would be for you if the government were to make it for you. 
Shila
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@Uragirimono
Now I'm just starting to think you don't know what words mean. Your statement of "in the majority of instances, it does not" result in harm factually proves that sometimes it does result in harm. Sure, if it makes you feel better to consider it that minority of cases I don't care at this point, but even you agree that in a minority of cases, pregnancy causes harm. It is therefore a true statement to say "Pregnancy can cause harm." I am not saying in the majority of pregnancies the woman is harmed. I am saying sometimes pregnancies cause harm.  To be clear, the definition of harm is "physical injury". Pregnancy can cause physical injury is a fact whether you personally were harmed or not.
If pregnancies can cause physical injury why do women want to get pregnant and why do they want to abort after they get pregnant?
Show the men make these decisions?

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@Bones
@Novice_II
It's not syllogistic as there are three points I'd actually point out, but I appreciate that you're the first person to actually ask my stance, so I'll answer. 

Stance: Abortion, among other options for pregnancy and birth related care, should be legal and accessible because:
                  1) There is no medical or legal precedence for "inescapable somatic subjection" (term defined below)
                  2) Individual morality is just that -- individual
                  3) One cannot consent to pregnancy on the night of having sex

To point one:
                 inescapable: unable to be avoided or denied
                 somatic: relating to the body, especially as distinct from the mind
                 subjection: cause or force to undergo (a particular experience of form of treatment).

Denying the legality and accessibility of abortion creates a state of inescapable somatic subjection for the pregnant person that is unseen in any other branch of law and medicine. 

If a pregnancy cannot be ended by choice, it is inescapable. For roughly nine months, the pregnant person will be unable to avoid or deny the fact that they are pregnant, a fact which affects every part of their lives. While birth at the end of nine months is certainly an end to a pregnancy it is not an escape from or denial of pregnancy anymore than an end of a prison sentence is an escape from or denial of prison. It is a conclusion of a state during which there was no other option to be had.
In no other instance do we legally demand an individual give of their organs and body to keep another person alive, regardless of cause or relationship. We do not legally require fathers to donate livers to children, even when those children would die. Even if the father himself was the cause of the child needing a new liver, we do not require him to give him the liver. We don't even require the dead to give up their organs for the sake of the living, as organ donation is voluntarily and must often still be okayed by living relatives. 
In no other branch of law or medicine do we treat any other consequence as inescapable unless a crime was committed. We do not forbid medical treatment for smokers that develop lung cancer, we do not withhold the assistance of the fire department from those who chose to live in fire-prone areas, and we do not withhold police assistance from those who accidentally leave their doors unlocked and are stolen from. Pregnancy is the only condition where some see it justified to say "because you made a 'bad' decision, you are now trapped in your consequences without escape". This a logical inconsistency deriving from the perceived superiority of certain individual's morality, which brings me to part 2.

To summarize this point: We do not legally demand organs from anyone for any reason and therefore have no justification in demanding the use of a uterus for any reason. We do not refuse to treat unwanted consequences based solely on the initial decision, so we there have no justification to deny abortion care because of a previous decision to have sex.

To point 2:
         To say it bluntly, individual morality is irrelevant outside of the choices of that particular individual and cannot be used to force the decisions of others. Sure, vegans may go around screaming their own morality in the faces of the not-vegan, and they have the right to do so, but that is where the discussion ends. They do not have the right to enforce the vegan lifestyle through law. The pro-choice mindset essentially says "regardless of my personal morality regarding abortion, I acknowledge that it is not my place to make the decision for others." This seems to be where I keep losing people. Bones's insistence that I clearly speak to where I think the lines regarding abortion should be drawn has repeatedly missed the fact that my stance is that I (and everyone on else on this thread) should not be the ones drawing the lines. All pregnancy and birth related decisions should be left to the pregnant person and their circle of trusted, chosen people (doctors, clergy, family, etc). Uneducated opinions from the general public and the government offer no help. They are nothing but people repeatedly insisting that their morality, their definition of life, their perception of how life should be lived, matters more than the person than that of the person making the decision.
      Apart from saying "I would allow the doctor and mother to make a decision" I haven't answered Bones's increasingly gory questions because they are irrelevant to my foundational point. If it not my pregnancy, then what I "would allow" is irrelevant to the decision being made. If it is my pregnancy, then Bones's opinions on what should be allowed would be irrelevant. The pro-choice stance is essentially one giant concept of "mind your own business and let those impacted by and educated on the decision make the decision."
      There is no consistent opinion on abortion across the spectrum of humans, both in terms of physical location and time, so an appeal to "morality" offers no universal standards by which we should be making any decisions other than how we as individuals choose to live our own lives. 

To summarize: We all have a right to our own morality. None of us have a right to force others to live by our morality. There is no universal standard regarding abortion to point to, so all morality cannot be used to proscribe the actions of others -- only ourselves.

To point 3:
      Inevitably, when I say "pregnancy is inescapable" one of two replies come up. The first is "birth is the escape", which was already addressed above. The second is some variation of "you consented to pregnancy when you consented to sex." This is demonstrably false.
     To consent is to "give permission for something to happen." There are two physical steps that are required for a pregnancy to occur. The first is that there must be an egg ready to fertilize. The second is that there must be a sperm to do the fertilizing. For simplicity's sake, let's assume the sperm-related step was consensual -- both man and woman agreed to have sex, and now there is sperm available for fertilization. But how do I, as a woman, consent to giving my egg?
     Physical processes cannot be consented to -- I cannot give permission for my hair to grow, I cannot give permission for my stomach to digest, I cannot give permission for my ovaries to release an egg. "Giving permission" by definition implies that my say over something matters. Biological processes do not hinge on a person's say -- they happen whether or not we wish them to. They therefore cannot be consented to. 
      So, if two steps are required for pregnancy, and one step is impossible to consent to, pregnancy can never be consented to. It is a natural process outside of anyone's complete control, as proven by the multi-million dollar fertility industry. It makes no more sense to tell a pregnant person "you consented to being pregnant" than it does to tell a bald man "you consented to being bald." We can accept that pregnancy is a consequence of sex, but as discussed above, there is no precedence for denying treatment for said consequence.
    Consent regarding pregnancy then, is an ongoing day to day acceptance, not a one-and-done deal made on the night of sex. I can continuously consent to the ongoing process of pregnancy, but I can also not consent to the ongoing process of pregnancy and seek to terminate it. Unless we seek to treat sex like a crime, and lock a woman into the inescapability of pregnancy, consent must be continually given.

To summarize: pregnancy is a biological process that cannot be consented to in a single night -- continued permission must be given for consent to be present. If continual permission is not given, the option to terminate must be present or the pregnancy has become the inescapable somatic subjection in point 1/

To summarize my stance as a whole: There is no legal or medical precedence to render pregnancy as inescapable somatic subjection by denying abortion access. Pregnant people must always legally be allowed to seek termination if that is their desire.  Moral discussions regarding the methods and timing of abortion are fine things for individuals to have, but irrelevant in the grand scheme of the decisions pregnant people will be faced with. 



Uragirimono
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@Bones
Your representation of my point is an oversimplification. Are you open to amending it to something I feel more accurately represents me? Are you also open to me adding a few definitions of my own?
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@Shila
If pregnancies can cause physical injury why do women want to get pregnant and why do they want to abort after they get pregnant?
You realize every woman is going to have a different answer to this, right? I can't speak for all of them. 

I personally do not want to get pregnant because my body would not be able to handle it. If I did get pregnant despite my efforts to the contrary, I would want to abort because I have no interest in going through a high-risk pregnancy or potentially dying just to bring a child into this miserable world. 
Shila
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@Uragirimono
--> @Shila
If pregnancies can cause physical injury why do women want to get pregnant and why do they want to abort after they get pregnant?
You realize every woman is going to have a different answer to this, right? I can't speak for all of them. 

I personally do not want to get pregnant because my body would not be able to handle it. If I did get pregnant despite my efforts to the contrary, I would want to abort because I have no interest in going through a high-risk pregnancy or potentially dying just to bring a child into this miserable world. 
How do you avoid getting pregnant when you are drunk most of the time? Drinking is the leading cause for unwanted pregnancies.
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@Uragirimono
Okay...I was hoping I would not get rambling in response to more rudimentary questions, so hopefully, this will narrow the conversation.
  • Do you believe an unborn (that is a biological human being at any stage of pregnancy) should have any rights? 

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Okay...I was hoping I would not get rambling in response to more rudimentary questions, so hopefully, this will narrow the conversation.
  • Do you believe an unborn (that is a biological human being at any stage of pregnancy) should have any rights? 
That should be up to the mother to decide.
ahiyah
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@Lemming
It's not a vague word when you consider that we are referring to medical harms.

Even if we weren't, though, looks are subjective. You can't say that a person's physical features have been harmed because a.) that is insulting and b.) what if there is another person who likes those features? And if the woman isn't bothered by them, what is the problem?

I don't know why a lot of weight would be gained in pregnancy, as you are only supposed to have an additional 200 calories a day toward the end of pregnancy. There is no need to get fat if that is what you're doing.
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@ahiyah
--> @Lemming
It's not a vague word when you consider that we are referring to medical harms. 

Even if we weren't, though, looks are subjective. You can't say that a person's physical features have been harmed because a.) that is insulting and b.) what if there is another person who likes those features? And if the woman isn't bothered by them, what is the problem?

I don't know why a lot of weight would be gained in pregnancy, as you are only supposed to have an additional 200 calories a day toward the end of pregnancy. There is no need to get fat if that is what you're doing.
Might that suggest Lemming is built differently?

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@Uragirimono
No worries, DM me and you can tell me specific parameters you wish to establish.
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@Uragirimono
No worries, DM me and you can tell me specific parameters you wish to establish.
Here is what Uragirimono posted earlier: specific enough for you?

“I personally do not want to get pregnant because my body would not be able to handle it. If I did get pregnant despite my efforts to the contrary, I would want to abort because I have no interest in going through a high-risk pregnancy or potentially dying just to bring a child into this miserable world.”
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@Shila
“I personally do not want to get pregnant because my body would not be able to handle it. 
Don't have sex.
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@Bones
--> @Shila
“I personally do not want to get pregnant because my body would not be able to handle it. 
Don't have sex
You did not answer her post completely. What about her position on abortion?

Here is what Uragirimono posted earlier: 
“I personally do not want to get pregnant because my body would not be able to handle it. If I did get pregnant despite my efforts to the contrary, I would want to abort because I have no interest in going through a high-risk pregnancy or potentially dying just to bring a child into this miserable world.”


ahiyah
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@Shila
Might that suggest Lemming is built differently?
As far as I'm aware, Lemming can't get pregnant. 
ahiyah
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@Uragirimono
I don't think any one experience of pregnancy and childbirth is the universal norm. One woman may have a beautiful pregnancy with zero lasting effects and another may end up crippled for life. The entire spectrum of pregnancy experience is valid and must be considered in discussions of abortion.
No, that is not how this works. You are speaking from subjective opinion, whereas I am arguing from reality.

It is not the norm for women to be crippled for life, but it is the norm for women to go through pregnancy and give birth with relative ease.

"Pregnancy experience" sounds silly and irrelevant. Phrases like that are just absurd lol. 

Your statement of "in the majority of instances, it does not" result in harm factually proves that sometimes it does result in harm. Sure, if it makes you feel better to consider it that minority of cases I don't care at this point, but even you agree that in a minority of cases, pregnancy causes harm. It is therefore a true statement to say "Pregnancy
can cause harm."
Now you're just using semantics and misrepresenting my argument (again). 

What I said:

Pregnancy is not harmful.

I said this because ordinarily, pregnancy isn't harmful. *Some* severely life-impacting or life-ending damage being incurred in a minority of cases does not translate to pregnancy being harmful. Saying that a harm that is a considerable harm (i.e not an easily managed harm or a non-harm), can sometimes happen is not admitting to pregnancy being harmful because that kind of statement would be misleading and obviously false. When we claim that something is harmful, it is because it IS harmful in many, not few, instances. That harm can be proven and demonstrated, and it isn't just subjective. 

I don't know how to speak to this without knowing where you live, but suffice it to say that I am American, and am therefore looking at Roe v Wade as my own country's problem.
I live in the U.K. I'm not sure what the point of the rest of this statement is.

You're welcome to read the below article for proof that parts of the US have more restrict abortion laws than Saudi Arabia. I'm not going to walk you through it as I assume you can read this for yourself.
Impressive, you've managed to show that one state out of fifty states in the U.S has some abortion laws that you consider extreme...well done! 

What is your point, exactly? Are you trying to say that the white hicks in Alabama have gotten worse than the strict Muslims in Saudi Arabia?

Once more, this is myopic.

Again, you offer me evidence of my own point -- most Americans support abortion.
Except a large percentage does not. 

Why don't you think that states should be able to decide their own laws on abortion? If one state (like Alabama) is mostly against it, explain why they should be compelled to facilitate abortions? 

How wonderful for you that you were allowed to make this decision. How tough it would be for you if the government were to make it for you. 
That is different, because here we are talking about what we want and don't want. I am happy to come second to children. Women who want abortions are not. 

They can prevent whatever misery they think will be inflicted on them if they have a child by using contraception, which as I have told you is more than 99% effective when used properly. If it does fail them, they can place their child for adoption considering that pregnancy itself is only temporary and will not result in any severely life-impacting or life-ending harm, most of the time.
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@Shila
I didn't answer because I will be debating her. 
Uragirimono
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@ahiyah
You're a trip 😂 

Saying that a harm that is a considerable harm (i.e not an easily managed harm or a non-harm), can sometimes happen is not admitting to pregnancy being harmful because that kind of statement would be misleading and obviously false. 
To reword this sentence, you straight up said "Saying that people get hurt sometimes is not admitting to people getting hurt sometimes". It definitely does, my friend. Here's a summary of how our argument has gone. 

You: Pregnancy doesn't cause harm. 
Me: It can in some cases cause harm. 
You: In the majority of cases, pregnancy does not cause harm. 
Me: That means in the minority of cases it does, so by definition that means pregnancy can cause harm. 
You: Well if the harm isn't big enough or common enough it doesn't count. 

You keep moving the goalposts of what you'd find acceptable. 
We've both agreed that in some cases, even the minority of cases, pregnancy can cause harm (remember, harm means physical injury). But just in case you don't want to believe me, here's proof.

https://www.stanfordchildrens.org/en/topic/default?id=birth-injuries-90-P02687 -- this one lists common injuries to the child during childbirth, just for funsies

What is your point, exactly? Are you trying to say that the white hicks in Alabama have gotten worse than the strict Muslims in Saudi Arabia?

My original point was "My friends in Saudi Arabia have better access to abortion than me." I then showed you proof of that. That was it, that was the point. I don't know how you missed it. 

Why don't you think that states should be able to decide their own laws on abortion? If one state (like Alabama) is mostly against it, explain why they should be compelled to facilitate abortions? 
I would completely support abortion laws if the people were actually voting for them. No state except Kansas has done that, so your repeated appeals to "what the people want" is detached from reality because the people aren't being given a chance to say what they want. 

If you think one state like Alabama that is mostly against it shouldn't be required to facilitate abortion, would you support the states like Kansas that largely support abortion providing them? Do you believe in democracy even when it goes against your beliefs or do you only support the majority making the rules when they agree with you?

That is different, because here we are talking about what we want and don't want. I am happy to come second to children. Women who want abortions are not. 

Lol, yes, that is literally the point. We are talking about what we want and don't want. If you want children, if you want to come second to your child, then you can go do that. No one is stopping you. 

I do not want children, and I do not want to come second to my children, even if we're only talking about the 9 months pregnancy. The only 100% guaranteed method of birth control (sterilization) has been repeatedly denied to me, so I am not allowed to exist in a body that can't get pregnant despite my desires. If I am not allowed to sterilize myself, am not allowed access to abortion if I am raped (American women have a 1 in 6 chance of being the victim of rape),  may even lose access to contraceptives in the future, and would probably die if I got pregnant (taking the kid with me, by the way) what actions should I take that would make you happy?

I'm fascinated that the person who gets to do what they want regarding pregnancy and birth is screaming at the person who's been denied almost everything she wants. Avoiding pregnancy is 100% on me, but if I get denied sterilization it's still on me, if I get raped it's still on me, if my state outlaws contraception it's still on me. For an act that takes two people, there sure is an insane amount of responsibility on one person in your mindset.
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@Uragirimono
Lol, yes, that is literally the point. We are talking about what we want and don't want. If you want children, if you want to come second to your child, then you can go do that. No one is stopping you. 

I do not want children, and I do not want to come second to my children, even if we're only talking about the 9 months pregnancy. The only 100% guaranteed method of birth control (sterilization) has been repeatedly denied to me, so I am not allowed to exist in a body that can't get pregnant despite my desires. If I am not allowed to sterilize myself, am not allowed access to abortion if I am raped (American women have a 1 in 6 chance of being the victim of rape),  may even lose access to contraceptives in the future, and would probably die if I got pregnant (taking the kid with me, by the way) what actions should I take that would make you happy?

I'm fascinated that the person who gets to do what they want regarding pregnancy and birth is screaming at the person who's been denied almost everything she wants. Avoiding pregnancy is 100% on me, but if I get denied sterilization it's still on me, if I get raped it's still on me, if my state outlaws contraception it's still on me. For an act that takes two people, there sure is an insane amount of responsibility on one person in your mindset.
Everything in your post proves you suffer from penis envy. 

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Its okay to tell people that abortion is wrong.

However, making a law to ban abortion means taking it too far.

Its against democracy. Its against personal choice. 

The next logical step is to claim that not having sex is murder, since it produces the same outcome as abortion. Literally the same outcome!

It seems pointless that we should go back to times when masturbation was considered murder and when everyone was expected to have straight sex and when having kids was forced on people.

What exactly is the point of returning to the biblical laws? 

In most cases, I am against abortion. However, I would not make my will into law. I dont see the point of such law. It would mostly be used to justify further oppression. 
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Best.Korea: Its okay to tell people that abortion is wrong.

However, making a law to ban abortion means taking it too far.

Its against democracy. Its against personal choice. 

The next logical step is to claim that not having sex is murder, since it produces the same outcome as abortion. Literally the same outcome!

It seems pointless that we should go back to times when masturbation was considered murder and when everyone was expected to have straight sex and when having kids was forced on people.

What exactly is the point of returning to the biblical laws? 

In most cases, I am against abortion. However, I would not make my will into law. I dont see the point of such law. It would mostly be used to justify further oppression. 
Abortion is a woman’s decision. Like you said if a man doesn’t want to make a baby he can refuse to have sex.
A woman too can refuse to have sex but that could lead to her getting raped. 
All things considered it’s the woman that bears the burden of conceiving a baby and therefore should also have the right to terminate a pregnancy. 

I noticed you are  quite obsessed with Abortion and masturbation.
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@Best.Korea
In most cases, I am against abortion. However, I would not make my will into law.
God, thank you. 
This thread really got me thinking everyone wants to legislate their own opinions for everything.
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@Uragirimono
You're a trip 😂 
That's nice. 

Now, let me explain this to you:

Pregnancy is not harmful.

When we say something isn't harmful, that is because generally it is NOT harmful. Why is it so difficult for you to grasp that? 

The abject failure from you to properly understand words, phrases and generalities can only lead me to think you may be an autist. It's alright if you are an autist, but please don't go around pretending you're not when the logical conclusion is that you probably are.

If not an autist, you clearly love to employ semantics. But there are just some semantical arguments that you will never, ever, be able to successfully use against someone. Yours are beyond absurd and any rational person would find them hilarious, if not outrageous. 

Would you say that going to sleep is harmful? When people fall asleep, there is a chance they could die in their sleep. 

Let me provide an example of the faultiness of your logic:

Person A: going to sleep is harmful.

Person B: why?

Person A: because a few people have been known to not wake up when they fall asleep.

Person B: so, this makes going to sleep harmful? It's not exactly the norm for people to die in their sleep, right? 

Person A: yes, and by saying it's not the norm and acknowledging that it *can* happen you are admitting that sleeping is HARMFUL! 

That is YOU.

I'm fascinated that the person who gets to do what they want regarding pregnancy and birth is screaming at the person who's been denied almost everything she wants. 
Aww poor you for not being able to get an abortion. 

My heart simply bleeds for you. 😢

Btw, no pregnant woman can truly do what she wants. If you are pregnant, you can't drink alcohol, you can't smoke, you can't do wild and silly things, you *can't* do anything that would put your baby at risk.

I went to a fairground with my boyfriend last year and wanted to go on a ride, but couldn't/didn't because I was pregnant.

You have to attend medical appointments to monitor your baby's health, even when you and your baby are healthy. 

In this country, you can't even decide how you will give birth in most cases. If you are fit and healthy, you are going to push your baby out no matter what. There won't be any cesarean for you unless you or your baby have an illness that make it necessary or lower the risk in a substantial way. Even my poor mom didn't get a cesarean, when she really should have. 

Avoiding pregnancy is 100% on me, but if I get denied sterilization it's still on me, if I get raped it's still on me, if my state outlaws contraception it's still on me. For an act that takes two people, there sure is an insane amount of responsibility on one person in your mindset.
Woe is you.

Life is tough, get used to it.