Eliminating Affirmative Action will Improve Race Relations Long-Term

Author: bmdrocks21

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@bmdrocks21
You mean that those whom the government designates as "white" and "Asian" will resent less those whom the government designates as "Black" for receiving privileges and opportunities which do not align with this nation's credo of "equality"? Equality is illogical. This is the byproduct of a form of government which relies on majoritarian consensus as validation for policy.
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@Athias
The only form of equality we practice as a nation is equality under the law. But over the last few decades, that has been eroded to a meaningless concept as felons are released from prison based on the color of their skin under the false assumption that 12% of the population can only be considered "equal under the law" if and only if they comprise 12% of the prison population.

So we have gone from a nation that enshrines laws that protect skin color above and beyond the protection of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It's as if the radical left has branded the entire foundation of the constitution as a racist document. The social contract is in tatters.

All without a whimper of dissent.
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@Athias
You mean that those whom the government designates as "white" and "Asian" will resent less those whom the government designates as "Black" for receiving privileges and opportunities which do not align with this nation's credo of "equality"? 
Close: it’s who the employers and universities designate as white or Asian. The government just allows it.

Equality is illogical. This is the byproduct of a form of government which relies on majoritarian consensus as validation for policy.
Precisely. Based on the state of Europe, I think that egalitarian lunacy is the fate of all democracies. You legitimize power by appealing to the masses- yet the masses don’t turn the wheels of progress.

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@Greyparrot
And yeah, it does help that I am also damn good at my job. 
What makes you so damn good at teaching? Are you following any particular rules, implementing certain structures etc. ?
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@bmdrocks21
I agree with most of the OP. I agree that eliminating affirmative action would help to heal race relations.

As a passing comment, Asians don't do the equivalent of White guilt, so they're not going to take anti-Asian university admissions too kindly. Being against your own race seems to be a thing only White people will do en masse.

I'm not in agreement with your comment on Hispanics. Hispanics can be classified as a separate race from Whites. They're generally browner and have other phenotypic traits. Clearly, there is a lot more admixture within that group, and the divisions can become tricky, but people's self-identification reflects their race pretty much 100% of the time, so it's not a big deal. 

I don't agree with your concluding paragraph. I don't think eliminating AA will end racial tensions. HBD related issues and race-based politics will always cause racial problems.

Also, the "American way of life" is created by certain genetics of certain races, so if you want that way of life, you need those certain races.
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@Avery
I'm not in agreement with your comment on Hispanics. Hispanics can be classified as a separate race from Whites. They're generally browner and have other phenotypic traits. Clearly, there is a lot more admixture within that group, and the divisions can become tricky, but people's self-identification reflects their race pretty much 100% of the time, so it's not a big deal. 
I don’t think that Hispanics can in any meaningful way be its own racial category. It just vaguely means where they come from was run by the Spanish empire for a while. Central and South Americans are quite distinct- But a large percentage of those peoples are mixed race, which isn’t really its own racial group


I don't agree with your concluding paragraph. I don't think eliminating AA will end racial tensions. HBD related issues and race-based politics will always cause racial problems.

Also, the "American way of life" is created by certain genetics of certain races, so if you want that way of life, you need those certain races.
Understood, but that is a different race problem. I’m talking about one the average site goer would get behind. My point is that groups would be more or less getting along and not going out of their way to foster anti-White hatred if there was no economic and power incentive to do so and the government actually had the will to tell people: America is better than where you came from. Assimilate or leave
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@bmdrocks21
I'm not in agreement with your comment on Hispanics. Hispanics can be classified as a separate race from Whites. They're generally browner and have other phenotypic traits. Clearly, there is a lot more admixture within that group, and the divisions can become tricky, but people's self-identification reflects their race pretty much 100% of the time, so it's not a big deal. 
I don’t think that Hispanics can in any meaningful way be its own racial category. It just vaguely means where they come from was run by the Spanish empire for a while. Central and South Americans are quite distinct- But a large percentage of those peoples are mixed race, which isn’t really its own racial group
Well for starters, Hispanics can be brown (and are mostly brown). I don't think White people can ever be brown (except maybe a crazy fringe case scenario). Hispanics usually only have dark features, whereas White people are far more diverse.

Secondly, if you line up a bunch of Hispanics, mixed race and Whites, you'll be able to point out the races most of the time, even when you get some admixtured people: R.853ec475d378c7c63589604cf56aa014 (2500×1200) (bing.com) . 

Thirdly, if they're sufficiently mixed race that it's hard to tell, you just call them mixed race. Yes, that's not really a racial group in itself, but that doesn't mean that Hispanic and White aren't meaningful distinctions. Just because some shades in between red and orange are hard to describe, that doesn't mean red and orange aren't valid, separate terms.

I don't agree with your concluding paragraph. I don't think eliminating AA will end racial tensions. HBD related issues and race-based politics will always cause racial problems.

Also, the "American way of life" is created by certain genetics of certain races, so if you want that way of life, you need those certain races.
Understood, but that is a different race problem. I’m talking about one the average site goer would get behind. My point is that groups would be more or less getting along and not going out of their way to foster anti-White hatred if there was no economic and power incentive to do so and the government actually had the will to tell people: America is better than where you came from. Assimilate or leave
I'm talking about the underlying racial issue that undermines what you're saying.

Different racial groups still won't get along, you abolished affirmative action, because it's not about the problems themselves, it's about constructing a narrative to (1) make a racial group, (2) make a racial group upset they're not getting something, and (3) get the something through collective bargaining. It's absolutely not necessary to have the narrative or details be correct.

When Blacks complain about differences in hiring and university admissions, they're looking to get special privileges for Blacks -- it's about collective bargaining. It doesn't matter whether the story is true or not. That's why feminists still go on about the wage gap, that's why Native Americans still complain about mass genocide of their own, and it's why Blacks complain about underrepresentation -- it gets them benefits and free stuff. 

It's presence of having differing racial groups that causes the issues. Affirmative action is just one way of many that this racial collective bargaining manifests.
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@Avery
Well for starters, Hispanics can be brown (and are mostly brown). I don't think White people can ever be brown (except maybe a crazy fringe case scenario). Hispanics usually only have dark features, whereas White people are far more diverse.

Secondly, if you line up a bunch of Hispanics, mixed race and Whites, you'll be able to point out the races most of the time, even when you get some admixtured people:

What you’re doing is boiling race down to simply appearance and skin tone, which is precisely what people that call it a social construct say. I can definitely point out a Hispanic from a White. It might not be utterly meaningless, but it is close to it.

White is a meaningful classification, particularly in America, because of all the interbreeding. Same with blacks, which is why they supposedly deserve a capital B.
And white is still meaningful, yet to a lesser degree, in Europe. But they often think in nationalist terms rather than racial ones, not in a small part due to their relatively non-mixed heritage.

But Hispanic just really means brown. There isn’t even the shared history that Europeans can claim. Argentinians have nothing in common with Mexicans, yet they are thrown into the same category. Hispanic is too broad to be meaningful. Just like African, without distinguishing North African and sub-Saharan African.

When Blacks complain about differences in hiring and university admissions, they're looking to get special privileges for Blacks -- it's about collective bargaining. It doesn't matter whether the story is true or not. That's why feminists still go on about the wage gap, that's why Native Americans still complain about mass genocide of their own, and it's why Blacks complain about underrepresentation -- it gets them benefits and free stuff.

It's presence of having differing racial groups that causes the issues. Affirmative action is just one way of many that this racial collective bargaining manifests.
Obviously the presence of different groups leads to a desire to extract benefit for them. But that’s not the point. Barring a “two state solution” or mass deportation of any non-white, I don’t see how you could fix that problem.

We have to work with the situation we are in. That means outlawing the practice of them extracting benefits for their groups on racial grounds. There is far less incentive to racially demonize whites just for the sheer joy of it, if there is no associated financial benefit.

The only feasible way to lessen the race problem is: eliminate affirmative action and reduce immigration
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@bmdrocks21
The only feasible way to lessen the race problem is: eliminate affirmative action and reduce immigration.

Immigration as it stands is a problem; but it wouldn't need to be reduced if assimilation was a legal requirement for everyone, including asylum applications. Just because your country sucks shouldn't give you a right to culturally recreate your country within America's borders.
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@Greyparrot
I disagree. How do you mandate assimilation? Perhaps boost English proficiency requirements, which is fine.

But we need to do what we used to after a large influx of immigration: close the tap. With consistent inflows, there is increased resistance to assimilating. They can create ethnic enclaves. If we reduce immigration, that becomes much harder
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@bmdrocks21
I guess when the numbers are that large, it's impossible to assimilate.
Avery
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@bmdrocks21
Well for starters, Hispanics can be brown (and are mostly brown). I don't think White people can ever be brown (except maybe a crazy fringe case scenario). Hispanics usually only have dark features, whereas White people are far more diverse.

Secondly, if you line up a bunch of Hispanics, mixed race and Whites, you'll be able to point out the races most of the time, even when you get some admixtured people:

What you’re doing is boiling race down to simply appearance and skin tone, which is precisely what people that call it a social construct say. I can definitely point out a Hispanic from a White. It might not be utterly meaningless, but it is close to it.
I'm also referring to the phenotypic traits Hispanics have. Skin color is certainly one of those, but Hispanics have other traits. All of their physical traits tend to be darker. Different cranial shapes and face formations. It's the whole package that lets me know that they are Hispanic. 

White is a meaningful classification, particularly in America, because of all the interbreeding. Same with blacks, which is why they supposedly deserve a capital B.
And white is still meaningful, yet to a lesser degree, in Europe. But they often think in nationalist terms rather than racial ones, not in a small part due to their relatively non-mixed heritage.
Nationalism extended from genetic traits and caters to them (originally evolving from smaller tribes). So, when these European countries (or really any normal country) is thinking in terms of what is best for the nation, they're thinking in terms of what is best for people genetically similar to me. 

These racial categories are always meaningful because they are a colloquial recognition of everything that extends from those shared genetics, too (i.e. ideas, culture etc.)

But Hispanic just really means brown. There isn’t even the shared history that Europeans can claim. Argentinians have nothing in common with Mexicans, yet they are thrown into the same category. Hispanic is too broad to be meaningful. Just like African, without distinguishing North African and sub-Saharan African.
No, Hispanic means all the other phenotypic traits, too. Also, Argentinians run similar governments, have similar I.Q etc. to Mexicans. Yes, they're not completely the same, but it's meaningful enough to be distinguished from White, African and Asian racial groups. That's why the Hispanic racial group is recognized in the first place -- it's meaningful enough to be consistently used.

When Blacks complain about differences in hiring and university admissions, they're looking to get special privileges for Blacks -- it's about collective bargaining. It doesn't matter whether the story is true or not. That's why feminists still go on about the wage gap, that's why Native Americans still complain about mass genocide of their own, and it's why Blacks complain about underrepresentation -- it gets them benefits and free stuff.

It's presence of having differing racial groups that causes the issues. Affirmative action is just one way of many that this racial collective bargaining manifests.
Obviously the presence of different groups leads to a desire to extract benefit for them. But that’s not the point. Barring a “two state solution” or mass deportation of any non-white, I don’t see how you could fix that problem.
I think a more-than-two-state solution might actually be the solution, as a kind of pan-separatism, but that's a separate thread topic.

We have to work with the situation we are in. That means outlawing the practice of them extracting benefits for their groups on racial grounds. There is far less incentive to racially demonize whites just for the sheer joy of it, if there is no associated financial benefit.

The only feasible way to lessen the race problem is: eliminate affirmative action and reduce immigration
I agree these are positive things (eliminate affirmative action and reduce immigration), but I believe America is too far gone. There's too undesirables already inside, draining the taxpayer's money, making walking down the street a chore, spiking crime rates etc. Their genetics are the problem, not the law or rules.

Besides, people do the whole racial voting wars naturally, so it'll need an authoritarian iron fist to keep it in line (which usually means bloodshed). And if you try outlawing the racial block voting now, you'll get called a racist and people will attack you from everywhere (mostly trying to get you cancelled, but sometimes it will be physical attempts). 
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@Avery
Nationalism extended from genetic traits and caters to them (originally evolving from smaller tribes). So, when these European countries (or really any normal country) is thinking in terms of what is best for the nation, they're thinking in terms of what is best for people genetically similar to me. 

These racial categories are always meaningful because they are a colloquial recognition of everything that extends from those shared genetics, too (i.e. ideas, culture etc.)

They might be meaningful in an abstract sense, but the history of Whites in Europe is the same as any other race anywhere: rife with war against people of the same race. There have been a few times in history where they’ve stuck together, although they likely were due to other factors like religion and for just sheer survival (thinking of Siege of Peking and the fight against Islamic invaders)

The classification is meaningful in terms of average intelligence, predisposition to certain diseases, and the like, but it has not proven to be a source of solidarity for Europeans.

No, Hispanic means all the other phenotypic traits, too. Also, Argentinians run similar governments, have similar I.Q etc. to Mexicans. Yes, they're not completely the same, but it's meaningful enough to be distinguished from White, African and Asian racial groups. That's why the Hispanic racial group is recognized in the first place -- it's meaningful enough to be consistently used
Let us not forget that in the early 1900s, Argentina had one of the largest economies in the world and a per capita income that rivaled Canada’s. Mexico has never had such success, despite the citizens of both countries being considered “Hispanic” under that broad term. 

There are large genetic differences between these populations in terms of European genetic makeup, so unless they are “indigenous” Central and South Americans exclusively, I don’t think there is much use in calling many South Americans ‘Hispanics’.

It’s not meaningful enough to be consistently used in America i. a context outside of receiving government power. If that was never in the picture, that term probably wouldn’t exist or be used much at all. It was pushed from the top down. There is an underlying racial reality to them being different than Whites, but bear in mind that many of them are quite distinct from the “indigenous” population due to race mixing


I think a more-than-two-state solution might actually be the solution, as a kind of pan-separatism, but that's a separate thread topic.
It could be the solution, but it won’t happen. Within the situation we are given, the only realistic fix to the problem is: get rid of racial preferences, lower immigration as much as possible, and *altering procreational incentives*

I believe America is too far gone. There's too undesirables already inside, draining the taxpayer's money, making walking down the street a chore, spiking crime rates etc. Their genetics are the problem, not the law or rules.
It very likely is too far gone, but the situation isn’t what I would consider entirely hopeless. It isn’t set in stone yet, so it’s long past due we take common sense steps like those highlighted above

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@badger
There's no fairness where a 0 in your bank account means no healthcare and no education and no chance.
I think you may be letting your opinions be driven by stereotypes of what America is like. It can be a brutal place but not as much as people seem to think. The US does have universal health insurance for poor people (and for old people), there are something like 70 million people on Medicaid. It may or may not be good insurance (I genuinely don’t know) but people aren’t just left to die or something like that. 

College is expensive but again it’s not as bad as the stereotypes say. The median graduate of a state college in the US walks out with around 30k in debt which is a lot of money but unless you pick a really bad major that isn’t very hard to pay off in ten years. The median starting salary for a college graduate in the US is somewhere in the $50,000 range. College is a pretty cheap ticket out of poverty all things considered. I don’t actually know if poor people would have more than average debt or not. There are federal subsidies for low income students, and lots of colleges offer scholarships/grants. Some can be pretty generous:

Pell Grant – A grant of up to $6,195 (as of the 2019–2020 Award Year) for students with a low expected family contribution.” The “expected family contribution” Is calculated using your parents income and assets so poor people would be eligible for these grants. And again I’m not an expert so I don’t know what the exact thresholds are but apparently theyre generous enough that $3 billion goes unclaimed every year because students think their families are too high income to get this grant. That’s not free college but a $6k grant per year to low income students isn’t exactly pocket change either. 



The people the US system is hardest on by far aren’t poor people but lower middle to middle class people who aren’t poor enough to qualify for things like Medicaid but aren’t rich enough that something like an unexpected medical bill won’t wipe them out, or who make just enough that their kids won’t get any financial aid for college but can’t actually afford it without massive debt either. In any system there’s room for reform but the US really isnt this dystopian shithole where the poor suffer and die while the rich escape to Elysium like people seem to think
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I don’t actually know if poor people would have more than average debt or not. There are federal subsidies for low income students, and lots of colleges offer scholarships/grants. Some can be pretty generous:
Here's a program from a college near where I live, the University of Texas at Arlington. No disrespect (I had friends who went there) but it's about as unglamorous a school as you can get. The majority of students live at home and commute to the school, there's not a lot going on on the sports side, the acceptance rate is almost 90% etc. Nonetheless, getting a degree in something like engineering, business, economics, or nursing from a school like this is well worth the cost, lots of degrees have ROIs that are positive by close to half a million or more. Again no disrespect intended but getting a degree in something like business from a school like this isn't exactly hard and your projected income midcareer is something in the $85-90k range, that isn't too bad. Certainly a lot better than could be expected not going to college

You can search by the ROI and projected income by college and major here: https://freopp.org/is-college-worth-it-a-comprehensive-return-on-investment-analysis-1b2ad17f84c8

How expensive is a school like this for poor people? Free, as it turns out. 

"The Blaze Forward program makes it even easier for you to get a world class education at UTA!
This program will cover 100% of tuition and fees for undergraduate students who meet all eligibility requirements and are from families with financial incomes up to $85,000."

Eligibility requirements: 

"Be a Texas resident paying the in-state tuition rate
  • Be eligible to receive awards through the Federal Pell Grant and the TEXAS Grant* programs
  • Have a yearly family income of $85,000 or less
  • Enroll as a full-time student at UTA (minimum of 12 undergraduate hours each long semester)"


What are the "TEXAS Grant" requirements? 

"Demonstrate financial need, priority to students with a FAFSA/TASFA Expected Family Contributions (EFC) of 6,454 or less.
  1. Register with Selective Service or be exempt.
  2. Be a Texas resident for tuition and fee purposes.
  3. Have not been convicted of a felony or offense under chapter 481, Health & Safety Code.
  4. The full TEXAS Grant amount disburses at 12 or more credit hours (full-time enrollment) and is prorated down at 9 credit hours (three-quarter enrollment). Less than 9 credit hours is not eligible.
  5. Have no previous baccalaureate degree."


The "expected family contribution" comes from your families income, assets, debt, household size, etc. For anyone who is actually poor the expected family contribution will be almost nothing. I Googled around and a lot of non-glamorous schools around the state have similar programs. So if you're a poor student who is willing and able to get a marketable degree at a non glamorous state school you are able to do so, at least in my state.