Abortion

Author: TheUnderdog

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#91
Bones
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@Barney
I am yet to see some save an unknown stranger from a third world country over their own child, yet you wouldn’t use this intuition as a means of dehumanising the impoverished would you?
Not sure how you're making that leap.
Because the tool known as my intuition is one which can make decisions which are not entirely inline with moral principles. 

Do you agree that when you save your family over some known third world child, that this intuition is not a good means for determining moral worth - that the intuition which makes you choose family over the unknown is not one which ought to convey moral agency? 


Zero people know the unborn.
Is it conceivable to you that a woman who has tried her entire life to conceive a child would value their unborn more than some child who she does not know?
I'm not discussing forced abortions against the will of the pregnant women.
And neither am I. The reason I ask - is it conceivable to you that a woman who has tried her entire life to conceive a child would value their unborn more than some child who she does not know - is because you seem to imply that choosing the unborn over the born is some outrageous never-heard-before scenario. 


In saying this it seems that you are implying that there is some difference between a first trimester and third trimester unborn in terms of moral worth. Could you identify what defines such a difference? If you believe abortion is slavery, shouldn’t you object to it at every stage?
It is not until sometime in the third trimester that a fetus is developed to the point where it could feel pain. That late in, there's at least a discussion to be had on harms potentially experienced.
So pain is what conveys moral consideration? Would this be correct? 

And I do not believe abortion is slavery. I have been clear that I believe placing women into indentured servitude for use against their will as medical devices is slavery.
Sorry - mistyped. You believe that forcing a woman to carry her preganancy is slavery. In which case, why does the trimester matter? In all trimesters, forcing a woman to go on with her pregnancy is slavery. Here's the issue I have 

  • If banning abortion entails slavery (unborn to mother) and slavery is a universal sin, then you would allow for abortion at all stages. 
  • Yet you mention "pain" as a means for dilenating from third trimester abortions, which implies that it is not actually the "slavery" argument, but the fact that you think the unborn is worthless. 
#92
Best.Korea
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@Barney
"And I do not believe abortion is slavery"

Abortion is not really slavery in a strict sense.

Its murder. Its killing of an innocent human.

And since:
someone's life >  your choice about your body

It follows that you are a terrible person.

"I volunteer at the red cross frequently, even while I'll probably never meet the people I help."

Stop bragging. Nobody cares. You write these things everywhere. Even on your profile.
#93
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@Barney
Since you are a bible dummy, let me quote you the Bible:

"Thou shall not kill"

Do you oppose to the Bible?
#94
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If abortion is not killing of a human, then pregnancy is not needed for humans to exist.

However, the history tells us that human can only exist if fetus wasnt destroyed.

If fetus is not destroyed, then human lives.

If fetus is destroyed, then human doesnt live.

Sadly, the abortionists cant understand this simple logic. Their brains are only tuned to whatever the media tells them.
#95
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#96
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I wonder why Barney simply does not debate me or Bones on this topic. I would be willing to do it immediately, I am sure Bones would be willing as well. 
#97
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@TheUnderdog
The problem with murder is it takes an innocent human’s life away without their consent.
But would you agree that the inherent problem with taking away something's life is that they are deprived of their future. If not this, what makes death bad?

#98
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@Best.Korea
someone's life > your choice about your body

No more self defense, eh? Also, someone needs your kidney, lung, and some of your liver...
#99
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@SkepticalOne
"No more self defense, eh?"

Sorry, what? How do you even reach this conclusion? If self defense increases amount of life, its obvious that it is allowed. Why do I have to explain such simple things to you?

"Also, someone needs your kidney, lung, and some of your liver..."

Well, if your previous line was dumb, this one is retarded.
The organs are supposed to be harvested from the deceased and the old.
How can you not know this?

Is there some part of your brain working to think of the dumbest possible answers in history?

Go ahead, tell us more about how you think choice>life, so that we can laugh at you.
#100
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@Best.Korea
Self defense involves a choice about your body - a choice that can end someone's life. The same applies to your redundant organs and someone else's life.

The problem here is not my processing power, but the fact that you made a comment that wasn't well thought out. 
#101
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@SkepticalOne
" a choice that can end someone's life."

If such choice increases life by saving life of you and others, then its allowed. Get it??????

"The same applies to your redundant organs and someone else's life"

Read again my previous post. I wont repeat just because you have autism. Personally, I hate disabled and retarded people, but at least we have something to laugh at when bored.
#102
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@Best.Korea
 If such choice increases life by saving life of you and others, then its allowed. Get it?????? 
I totally get it, but that is not what you said due to the simplicity of your statement. What you wrote did not reflect your actual view.

Personally, I hate disabled and retarded people [...]
The self-loathing is apparent. Good luck with that.
#103
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@SkepticalOne
"I totally get it, but that is not what you said due to the simplicity of your statement."

If you cant understand simple sentences like: do not kill = increase the amount of life, then its good that I didnt use anything more complicated on a retard like you.
#104
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@Barney
@Novice_II
You two ought to have a debate regarding this topic. To Barney, it is a topic which defines your strongest performance on this site (and one of your more staunch stances) and to Novice, it is a topic I know they feel passionately about. That both of you are invested into this topic and believe you have the right answers will manifest a truly entertaining contest. 
#105
TWS1405_2
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@Bones
Yeah, right. Barney. Strongest debater on abortion o. This site. Bwahaahaaahaaa 
Topic's author
#106
TheUnderdog
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@RileyByng
But would you agree that the inherent problem with taking away something's life is that they are deprived of their future. If not this, what makes death bad?
The problem with taking away someone’s life is the person that lost their life did not consent to have their life taken away.  It’s a big problem because most people value their lives a lot.
#107
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@TheUnderdog
Firstly, I would like to address your claim that:
"The claim that a zygote isn't a human being: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3211703 states 95% of biologists disagree with that.  Trust the science, just like with vaccines and climate change."

I have found a paper from Swarthmore College (https://www.swarthmore.edu/news-events/when-does-personhood-begin) written by Howard A. Schneiderman Professor of Biology Scott Gilbert. This quote really stood out to me:
"I really can't tell you when personhood begins, but I can say with absolute certainty that there's no consensus among scientists. Some scientists will say it begins at fertilisation, where the zygote gets a new genome, where the sperm and egg combine, their nuclear materials, which actually is a long process ending with a two cell stage. Some scientists will say it's at implantation, where you get a pregnancy."

I also hope you understand that many people hold onto the idea that 'life begins at conception' because of the Christian Bible. It is implied in many passages that life begins at conception, but as we all know it was written around 5th Century BCE. If you were a person of science you would also know that science is about always questioning what you think you know, not holding onto the crumbs of education you call 'highschool biology'.

Secondly, even if the point that abortion is killing a baby was true I would still support women getting abortions. Before you start typing your response, think about this. When you are on an airplane and the oxygen masks go down, who do you take care of first? You? Or your child? 
The fact is many women who need abortions need them because they will not survive the birth. The woman's life is more important than an unborn child, who has no life no pre-existing kids to look after, no memories. They need to look after themselves before anyone else and you cannot expect people to give up their life for an unborn being.

Lastly, why do you think you have the right to say what other people do with their bodies. You cant even be sure they are hurting anyone yet you are so very confident. If you care so much about these unborn babies, are you advocating for child labor laws in China or Bangladesh? What about child abuse in the US? Or the unbelievably high rate of young Indigenous women going missing every year? There are so many kids in the world already living who are suffering, yet you choose to focus on the most minuscule, 'issue' I can think of.

There are so many other things wrong with your post but i've had enough of you <3

14 days later

Topic's author
#108
TheUnderdog
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@BigBuffMan
Whose source is more reliable, yours or mine?  And why?

The fact is many women who need abortions need them because they will not survive the birth.
Nobody is trying to ban life saving abortions.  The main contention is abortions where the mother can produce a healthy baby and are from consensual sex (I support legalized abortion for rape victims and a whole rape victim insurance policy to help them out).  

Lastly, why do you think you have the right to say what other people do with their bodies.
There are times when nobody believes bodily autonomy is absolute.  For example, I can’t use my body to hit yours.

If you care so much about these unborn babies, are you advocating for child labor laws in China or Bangladesh?
I support child labor laws in foreign countries; 100%.  We need to make American manufacturing more competitive.

Or the unbelievably high rate of young Indigenous women going missing every year?
Not a problem in the US.

There are so many kids in the world already living who are suffering, yet you choose to focus on the most minuscule, 'issue' I can think of.
The kids should be taken care of by their parents.  Any parent that is a deadbeat should get sterilized (by vasectomy or tubes tied) because we can’t have deadbeat parents reproducing.