How racism fuels the pro gun movement

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12.22.2022 10:34AM

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@Athias

You probably internally discriminate as much as everyone else does.
I'm assuming that mere discrimination isn't the premise of Double_R's allegations but "racist chauvinism" which colloquially has been conflated with racism and its adjectival qualifiers (i.e. "racist.")

Oh no, last I checked there are something like 62 genders, do I have to learn all the different racists now? How many are there?

Though you may not be outwardly intolerant.
No, I'm outwardly intolerant.

Racism is a misused epithet.
It really is.

To paraphrase the Supremes, I may not be able to define racism precisely, but I know it when I see it.

#32

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@Sidewalker

but I know it when I see it.

That's the ultimate racist comment in this thread.

When people feel relaxed, they tell on themselves.

#33

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veoYcsH7Wrs

12.22.2022 12:57PM

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@Sidewalker

in 1984, Dee Snyder exposed the hypocrisy of that statement in a congressional hearing.

Regardless of how you feel about the political parties, you should really watch this.

Dee Snyder exposed the rhetoric of "know it when you see it" to be simply "seeing what you want to see"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OceijOEVqU

And if that isn't the heart and soul of racism, then nothing is.

I would also urge you to re-read my post about the fundamental disagreement with the OP (#24)

There are a significant portion of people who are predominantly right brain thinkers (creative thinkers) that are literally unable to process people into monolithic singular groups as the OP asserts. For creative thinkers, racism isn't even possible. There are no neat boxes to put people in as left brain thinkers are able to do.

For many left brain thinkers, those boxes must be constructed by right brain thinkers. It's highly unfortunate then that too many people find a profit in creating a world the polar opposite to the one MLK envisioned, and then teach those boxes to kids in school who don't know any better.

Topic's author

#34

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12.22.2022 02:09PM

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@Athias

Diagnosis would naturally implicate a remedy, would it not? In your submitting your allegations to this conversation's purview, what remedy, if any, do you expect to come from them?

Recognizing the black community as the victim of gun violence more so than the purveyor.

You're taking a legitimate contention, i.e. guns don't kill people, bad people who use guns violently do, and arguing that maintaining said contention is racist and primarily benefits racists (a tall order.)

Is it really?

Let’s break this down more simply;

P1: Gun violence is primarily the product of bad people

P2: The black community has the most gun violence

C: ???

Please explain how you conclude anything other than “the black community has the most bad people”.

And if you can’t, please explain how that is not a racist viewpoint.

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#35

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12.22.2022 02:17PM

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@bmdrocks21

You’re being both charitable (in terms of not really attacking any statistic) and making a huge stretch at the same time (by saying some trite phrase is evidence of racism when nobody saying that phrase is simultaneously thinking ‘black people bad’)

You don’t have to simultaneously think it, that’s kind of the point. If the conclusion follows… (see previous post)

A lot of people hold attitudes towards individuals or groups that they are not cognizant of. Racism is probably the most prevalent example.

Honestly, this same thinking could apply to saying murderers and rapists are bad people.

No, it’s not. Murder and rape are clearly defined acts which and take into account the full circumstances of the act. Gun violence is broad term. We’re also talking about groups not individuals, so it’s a completely different dynamic.

Topic's author

#36

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12.22.2022 02:25PM

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@bmdrocks21

Why would the political will be there when most people aren’t negatively impacted by guns ever?

I’m not suggesting that anything I’m saying can or even should change the national will on gun violence. But when you take a position you should understand the full extent of the position you’re taking.

It’s kind of like someone eating pork while never having seen a pig get slaughtered. We don’t have to feel guilty about it if we don’t think about it.

My point is that if my portrayal we’re found to be accurate, then a portion of the lack of desire in this country to curb gun violence is attributed the demonization of a group of people as a way of dismissing the victimization the rest of us are subjecting them to.

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@IwantRooseveltagain

That’s why there is so much violence in Europe? Oh wait, there isn’t

I'm assuming you mean *gun* violence?

Why is it that so many Americans view Europe as this peaceful paradise? 😆

The truth is that *some* European countries have higher homicide rates than the U.S, and that violence is a problem here too.

#38

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12.22.2022 02:27PM

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The OP is beyond absurd.

#39

bmdrocks21

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bmdrocks21

12.22.2022 02:52PM

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@Double_R

No, it’s not. Murder and rape are clearly defined acts which and take into account the full circumstances of the act. Gun violence is broad term. We’re also talking about groups not individuals, so it’s a completely different dynamic.

But the group in question are people who commit “gun violence”, are they not? Aren’t the bad people with guns perpetrating the “gun violence”? Also, it isn’t a clearly defined act, but it covers a handful of defined terms that are all acts of aggression (nobody refers to a self-defense shooting as ‘gun violence’). It refers to assault with a deadly weapon, armed robbery, shooting murders, etc.

We can call anything reasonably considered gun violence to be done by bad people.

And your logic suggests that we can call black people worse because they are more likely to commit bad acts like those outlined above for the exact same reason you claim that racism “fuels the pro gun movement” because black neighborhoods are rife with bad guys with guns. We can call rapists and murderers bad people, well there are more of them in said neighborhoods but I still disagree that calling murderers bad people is a racially charged argument for the same reason criticizing the perpetrators of gun violence isn’t racially charged

You make this distinction about group vs individual but saying “bad GUY with a gun” is a statement targeting an individual- said guy with a gun. There are multiple of them, but it targets the individuals in different circumstances

You don’t have to simultaneously think it, that’s kind of the point. If the conclusion follows… (see previous post)

A lot of people hold attitudes towards individuals or groups that they are not cognizant of. Racism is probably the most prevalent example.

But the conclusion doesn’t follow. If your neighborhood doesn’t have gun violence, you’re less likely to want to change the status quo that benefits you, assuming gun control would even do that. Just because you brow beat people with accusations of racism doesn’t make them racist for not caving to the sad stories of gun violence. Your position seems to be that hesitation to completely changing your position to help black people is evidence of racism when there are 87% of other people to consider and neglecting their racial groups’ wants and needs isn’t racist?

My point is that if my portrayal we’re found to be accurate, then a portion of the lack of desire in this country to curb gun violence is attributed the demonization of a group of people as a way of dismissing the victimization the rest of us are subjecting them to

But Republican states in the south are very pro-gun, and they also have a lot of black residents. They must think that there are good guys among them that can use those guns to defeat the bad guys with guns, yeah? Why must an elevated presence of bad guys suggest that there are no good guys?

#40

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12.22.2022 03:10PM

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@bmdrocks21

Most of these monolithic assumptions such as the OP originate from people living in large concentrated urban areas like Chicago and New York, where they never encounter ANY diverse groups of people of color outside of that limitation.

#41

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12.22.2022 03:12PM

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@Sidewalker

Oh no, last I checked there are something like 62 genders, do I have to learn all the different racists now? How many are there?

There are 482 types of racists by my calculations.

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SammiBoi

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12.22.2022 03:13PM

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@bmdrocks21

It's not accurate to say that all gun violence is committed by "bad people." Good people do all sorts of things when they're in a state of desperation or under the influence of medication or alcohol. They might do things that they later regret, and that doesn't make them "bad people."

In no way am I advocating for less gun control. I just had to point out an issue with your argument.

#43

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12.22.2022 03:40PM

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@Double_R

Recognizing the black community as the victim of gun violence more so than the purveyor.

Who here has argued or insinuated that the so-called "black community" is the purveyor of gun violence other than you? (TWS1405_2 doesn't count.)

Is it really?

Let’s break this down more simply;

P1: Gun violence is primarily the product of bad people
P2: The black community has the most gun violence
C: ???

Please explain how you conclude anything other than “the black community has the most bad people”.

And if you can’t, please explain how that is not a racist viewpoint.

It is a racist view point not because of the contention in and of itself, but because the argument's author decides to create a premise where he parses the demographic of alleged bad people by a government's designation of so-called "race." In other words, why is the second premise even being argued? One cannot avoid racist judgement when the premise of one's analysis is so-called "race." YOU ARE THE ONE bringing up, as you have admitted, a negligible factor in what may or may not influence support of gun rights.

Case in point:

I: Only bad people rape.

You: Well, statistically speaking, so-called black people have the highest incidence of rape among their demographic.

I: Why are you bringing up so-called race?

You: Because when you say "only bad people rape," you're concluding something racist.

I: How so?

You: Because so-called black people have the highest statistical incidence of rape among their demographic.

I: But you're the one who decided to analyze my statement in the context of your arbitrary division of so-called race.

You: Yeah, that may be, but because of the statistical difference, aren't you saying that the so-called black demographic has the most bad people, thereby making you racist?

I: But I'm not even thinking that way; my assessment wasn't premised at all on so-called race, but those who commit the act of rape and those who don't. Statistical disparities borne from arbitrary divisions among these demographics have nothing to do with anything.

You: You're still racist.

I: ...

#44

YouFound_Lxam

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YouFound_Lxam

12.23.2022 12:24AM

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12.23.2022 12:24AM

Why does everyone always got to make it about race?

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TWS1405_2

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12.23.2022 02:24AM

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@Double_R

Problem with your proposal about all but ignoring statistical arguments is where you fall flat in your face with this argument on gun control.

Fact based truths is what proves why gun control doesn’t work, AND there are other things, some seemingly innocuous, that so far more harm to Americans and others in this country than mere gun violence. For example, malpractice. Another, fentanyl overdoses. Yet the administration opened the border and releases a gun dealer, and for what, a black lesbian female. A triple so-called minority.

Fact driven truths prove gun control is a failure. It also proves less than 1.5% of the roughly 6% of black males in this country commit over 50% of all murders and non negligent manslaughter cases; not to mention other violent person crimes like robberies and rapes. Yet it’s the white male painted as the bad guy, then everyone wonders why black males keep getting arrested and assaulted during arrests that they clearly resist and attack officers during said arrests.

Wake up and try being honest with not only yourself for once, but everyone else too!

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12.23.2022 02:47AM

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@Double_R

Any suggestions of how we can reduce gun violence in black neighborhoods, without harming people's general right to possess fire arms?

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12.23.2022 02:55AM

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@PREZ-HILTON

I'd suggest the same approach whites did with the prohibition gangs. No gun control was necessary.

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12.23.2022 03:05AM

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@Greyparrot

I have mixed feelings about that. Like Elliot ness was an alcoholic. What was he thinking going after alcohol distribution and manufacturing? Seems like a hypocrite

#49

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12.23.2022 03:43AM

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@PREZ-HILTON

The solution to civilian gun violence is government gun violence.

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12.23.2022 03:58AM

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@Greyparrot

I know you are talking in jest here, but honestly it is a bad thing that there are people in black neighborhoods trapped in their houses because of the violent conditions. Particularly vulnerable to communities like the elderly.

I do think a strong police presence could help in a lot of situations, so you aren't completely wrong, but it isn't enough.

It isn't fair that a child has to worry about being accosted catching the school bus in the morning. Just like it isn't fair that the elderly in these communities are often prisoners in their own homes.

A strong police presence will help in one regard, but there is a very difficult cycle to escape from at play here that will just keep drawing more and more people into a culture of violence.

Let's just look at one reason someone in that type of area would have a gun they shouldn't.

Anyone who has lived in the ghetto, knows that often pitbulls not used in dog fighting are abandoned. These are very dangerous dogs and a kids only defense may be sneaking his uncle's gun into his backpack everyday for the walk to the bus stop. Now you have a ton of emotional teenagers with guns. This scenario is just one of many.

#51

thett3

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thett3

12.23.2022 04:11AM

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12.23.2022 04:11AM

There’s a simpler explanation:

Republican voters (country people, suburbanites, middle class) are more likely to use guns for recreation or hunting/pest control and are very rarely the victims of gun violence, will live and die surrounded by people who own guns without experiencing or hearing about any gun violence in their personal lives

Democratic voters (black people, urbanites, the poor) are more likely to be the victims of gun violence or cross paths with people who are its victims, and because of where they tend to be concentrated are also far less likely to have any recreational/positive experience with guns

#52

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12.23.2022 04:26AM

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@thett3

None of that changes what the op is saying, which is essentially that gun violence disproportionately affects African Americans and that is why a lot of people find it easy to ignore the problem when discussing the 2nd amendment.

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12.23.2022 09:16AM

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@Athias

Oh no, last I checked there are something like 62 genders, do I have to learn all the different racists now? How many are there?
There are 482 types of racists by my calculations.

Yeah, and that's just Georgia.

#54

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12.23.2022 09:41AM

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@Greyparrot

in 1984, Dee Snyder exposed the hypocrisy of that statement in a congressional hearing.

Regardless of how you feel about the political parties, you should really watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veoYcsH7Wrs

Dee Snyder exposed the rhetoric of "know it when you see it" to be simply "seeing what you want to see"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OceijOEVqU

And if that isn't the heart and soul of racism, then nothing is.

I would also urge you to re-read my post about the fundamental disagreement with the OP (#24)
There are a significant portion of people who are predominantly right brain thinkers (creative thinkers) that are literally unable to process people into monolithic singular groups as the OP asserts. For creative thinkers, racism isn't even possible. There are no neat boxes to put people in as left brain thinkers are able to do.

Neat boxes, you mean like "right brain thinkers" and "left brain thinkers", that kind of neat box?

For many left brain thinkers, those boxes must be constructed by right brain thinkers. It's highly unfortunate then that too many people find a profit in creating a world the polar opposite to the one MLK envisioned, and then teach those boxes to kids in school who don't know any better.

There are only two kinds of people in the world, those who think there are only two kinds of people in the world, and those who don't.

#55

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12.23.2022 12:27PM

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12.23.2022 12:27PM

Neat boxes, you mean like "right brain thinkers" and "left brain thinkers", that kind of neat box?

Going to go out on a limb and say the words "many" and "Predominantly" are not in your vocabulary.

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12.23.2022 12:45PM

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@Greyparrot

Going to go out on a limb and say the words "many" and "Predominantly" are not in your vocabulary.

Not only that, but those are not neat little boxes, but broad often overlapping boxes with such a wide meaning that millions of different personality types can exist within them.

Topic's author

#57

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12.23.2022 01:18PM

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@bmdrocks21

We can call anything reasonably considered gun violence to be done by bad people.

Then any police officer who fires his gun can be reasonably considered a bad person.

You make this distinction about group vs individual but saying “bad GUY with a gun” is a statement targeting an individual- said guy with a gun.

The whole point of this thread is about how the perception of the group feeds into one's acceptance of this narrative on the individual level as sufficient to explain the problem.

In other words, if you accept that gun violence is mostly committed by black people and you accept that gun violence is the result of "bad guys with guns", then by extension, you must accept that black people are just far more likely to be bad.

That belief is by definition, racist.

Racism doesn't mean wrong, it is possible that this assessment is factually accurate. But, as a non racist individual, this should make one question their thinking and ask themselves what else is going on here.

Within the countless arguments I've heard; "guns don't kill people, people kill people", "gun laws only stop law abiding citizens", etc. none of this seems to be considered, hence why I bring it up to see what reception it gets. So far, it's exactly what I expect.

Your position seems to be that hesitation to completely changing your position to help black people is evidence of racism when there are 87% of other people to consider and neglecting their racial groups’ wants and needs isn’t racist?

No, my evidence is the arguments that are being used to advocate for gun prevalence, which I already explained in detail.

And when it comes to wants and/or needs, I prioritize stopping needles loss of life over preserving people's hobbies. I don't consider that racist.

Topic's author

#58

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12.23.2022 01:20PM

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@Greyparrot

Most of these monolithic assumptions such as the OP originate from people living in large concentrated urban areas like Chicago and New York, where they never encounter ANY diverse groups of people of color outside of that limitation.

So someone who actually comes from a diverse population center has less experience with diversity within groups than someone in suburban or rural America?

Wow GP, your absurdity had reached a new low. That's impressive.

#59

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12.23.2022 01:24PM

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@Sidewalker

I'm also going to go out on a limb and guess you don't like twisted sister.

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