Leftists...........explain this.

Author: YouFound_Lxam

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#91
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@SkepticalOne
Okay. I'm more confused as to how you determine sex. Is it chromosomes, genitalia, or something else?
Sex is what you biologically are. Your DNA. 
It is not biologically possible for a human to have male DNA or chromosomes, and also have the ability to reproduce.
That is what I am saying. 

If I met this person on the street, chances are I'm not going to know their genitalia or their chromosomes. I will take cues from them as to what labels are appropriate. That's all we can do unless we are going to be super inappropriate or invasive. What's the problem with that?
If you ever meet the less than 1% of the population that is born this way, then that is an exception. 

But a deformity does not support biological born men with male DNA, transitioning into women. 


#92
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@YouFound_Lxam
It is not biologically possible for a human to have male DNA or chromosomes, and also have the ability to reproduce.
Not to be pedantic, but reproduction requires male and female gametes. I think maybe you mean the ability to bear children? If so, an individual with Swyer Syndrome can bear children. They just can't get pregnant the old fashioned way. Plus, its possible to have female DNA and not have the ability to reproduce. The 'ability to reproduce' is important for life, but not important for someone to be male/female, masculine/feminine.

If you ever meet the less than 1% of the population that is born this way, then that is an exception. 
Again, this is equivalent to the amount of people who have red hair. It's not a small amount.

But a deformity does not support biological born men with male DNA, transitioning into women. 

That's your professional opinion, eh? If anything, we've established sex isn't binary. Ive provided only one way chromosomes and genitalia can run contrary. I havent gone into the numerous other ways biology can make a mockery of binary conceptions of sex. Suffice to say, the argument for wedging everyone into a binary system that doesn't properly describe humanity is self-defeating.
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#93
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@SkepticalOne
It's not that hard to understand. If your cells are male, you can't bear children, and if your cells are female, then you can't impregnate anyone. 

Anyone born with a disability of some sort, is not proof of a third sex, or some type of new gender.
Sex is binary, because you can either have the ability to:
A. Bear a child.
B. Impregnant. 

There is no third option. 
For sex to not be binary, there would have to be a third option, but there is not. 

We don't say there is a different type of human, just because of the differences in how we are born, we are all still human.
If a human is born with 3 limbs instead of 4, they are still human, not a new species. 

Same with sex. Sex is a binary system. One impregnates and the other gets pregnant. There is no third option. There are people that are born different, but they still fall under that same binary. 


#94
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@SkepticalOne
If you ever meet the less than 1% of the population that is born this way, then that is an exception. 
Again, this is equivalent to the amount of people who have red hair. It's not a small amount.
You are equivocating. Lxam is clearly referring to chromosome phenotype mismatch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex:

or in which the phenotype is not classifiable as either male or female", the prevalence of intersex is about 0.018%

You are talking about self-reported gender dysphoria which could range wildly depending on how much attention from adults being non-binary garners. If you were talking about phenotype mismatch you were simply quite wrong. Redheads ~2% https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-percentage-of-the-world-population-have-red-hair.html

2/0.018 = 111 times more likely to be a redhead than have a phenotype genotype gender mismatch.

Again I point out to both of you that these percentages are entirely irrelevant since nobody's honest policy cares about intersex or the difference between one in a million vs one in a hundred.

What is the threshold at which a minority can demand pronouns? Is 1% enough to entitle a group to propagandize children?
#95
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@ADreamOfLiberty

It seems you've traded debate for personal attacks. I'm not interested in that type of discussion, friend.
#96
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@YouFound_Lxam
Sex is binary, because you can either have the ability to:
A. Bear a child.
B. Impregnant. 
People who can do neither aren't male or female? Listen, I get what you're trying to say, but I've already provided an example of people with male chromosomes and a uterus. That alone throws a wrench in your black and white conception of sex.

It seems clear we're not going to change each other's minds, so let me take this opportunity to thank you for the discussion and bow out. 
#97
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@Best.Korea
Just one thing, America isn't a Democratic society, its a Constitutional  Republic. We are not mob rule.
#98
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@<<<oromagi>>>
I dont know an exact way to do that if its based on personal experience.

What is non anonymous? I am anonymous because you dont know my name. Most people online use aliases.

I will look or examples online. 

 


Easier to find more responses to the claim that men have no say then it is to find exact language on why men should not have a say. 

  • Yes, I think that illustrates my point.  I'm sure it is true that some random people say a man is not entitled to his opinion on abortion but not by people who are representing a Leftist point of view.  By definition, Leftism believes that no public policy should prevent any citizen from the expression of their opinon.  While some random people might say they are Left-wing and then make this un-Leftist claim, that does not support Liam's claim that the point of view represent Leftism.  This is what is called a Straw Man.  It is not particularly true that Leftists say X and also that Leftists say Y.  Therefore, asking Leftists to explain Liam's phony contradiction is not warranted.


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#99
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@SkepticalOne
People who can do neither aren't male or female? Listen, I get what you're trying to say, but I've already provided an example of people with male chromosomes and a uterus. That alone throws a wrench in your black and white conception of sex.
You obviously didn't listen to what I said.

I said:
Sex is binary, because you can either have the ability to:
A. Bear a child.
B. Impregnant. 
Then, I also said:
There are people that are born different, but they still fall under that same binary. 
There are people who are born without the ability to impregnant, or bear a child, but they don't have any other secret third or fourth ability, so they still fall under the binary. 

A watch that is made incorrectly is not a new device. It is still a watch, but just broken. But still, the design is still implemented in all other parts of the watch. 

It seems clear we're not going to change each other's minds, so let me take this opportunity to thank you for the discussion and bow out. 
I am open to discussion, and I have an open mind. I just need evidence to prove that sex is not binary. If you can provide that, if you can provide a third ability for humans to reproduce, then I'm all ears. 
#100
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Just curious, how is boycotting slandering and basically destroying people financially for their political views defending their right to have differing political views?
#101
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@<<<oromagi>>>
Serious debaters use dictionaries so that everybody is talking about the same thing. 
Serious debators don't pretend vague definitions like "political left" have precise definitions for the very purpose of equivocating.
  • Political leftism has a very precise defintion.  We know the exact time and place and authorship of the Left vs. Right dichotomy because the French Assembly put it all on record.
    • Yes, we understand that you can't justify your crazy conspiracy theories without being able to argue that Leftism means a whole range of anonymous boogey-men but that why you would lose any debate on this site that depends on your desperate need for vagueness.
  • There's no such thing as intentionally vague definitions.  The set of all people called Leftists is the set of all people who believe that human rights take priority over property rights.   There is plenty of overlap with other sets of people  like "Liberals" or "people who believe the US Government should not regulate a woman's choice to be pregnant" but every label is its own unique thing.  Using the wrong label for the subject of your proposition, as Liam has done here, always breaks the truth value of your proposition and demands correction.


#102
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@SkepticalOne
People who can do neither aren't male or female?
In the ancient times and according to the Bible, you werent considered completely man unless you made your wife pregnant.
Having genitals was just one step in the process of reproduction, but it was the reproduction that defined men and women.

In the Bible, what makes male and female is their unity into one body and the reproduction that results from that unity.

Today, when reproduction is ignored, we get all this nonsense where people identify as tractor wheels and what not.
#103
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@oromagi
We know the exact time and place and authorship of the Left vs. Right dichotomy because the French Assembly put it all on record.
You just won't admit that what they called left and right have almost nothing to do with what modern people mean when they say left and right.

There's no such thing as intentionally vague definitions.
Oh my...

the set of all people called Leftists is the set of all people who believe that human rights take priority over property rights.
By that definition one must be of the opinion that rights conflict to be a leftist. How do you define rightist?
#104
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 Leftist: "a person with left-wing political views."
Left wing: "the section of a political party or system that advocates for greater social and economic equality, and typically favors socially liberal ideas; the liberal or progressive group or section."
  • That works just fine.  So, obviously, no person who would argue that men should not have the same rights to opinion as women is "advocating for social equality"  They are doing the exact opposite of Leftism: they are arguing that men should not have the same rights as women in at least one respect.
  • I am sure you can find somebody who identifies as Left-wing and yet will make this Right-wing  argument but that just makes the individual less Leftist, it does not, as you have proposed here, make all Leftists responsible for an anti-Leftist remark.
Your first proposition is fatally fucked:  So, you guys say that you can't have an opinion on abortion if you don't have a uterus, right?

The only truthful response is "Wrong, such a remark is entirely inconsistent with Leftism."

Your second propostion is likewise fake:   you guys also say that you don't need a uterus to be a woman, right?

The only truthful response is "Wrong, Leftists believe that everybody gets an equal and sovereign right to define and descibe themselves as they see fit without government interference.   The Leftist position is that no government may with justice enforce a label of "man" or "woman" on any citizen against their will.

Therefore, when you conclude that the first proposition contradicts the second, you are comparing one fake straw man to another.  Your argument that there is some kind of contradcition has zero truth value.

This is why I didn't say "All Leftists" in my title, I said Leftists, because that is where these ideas are coming from
  • That is the opposite of true.  Leftism advocates that all men and women are equal in rights.  Any argument that women deserve a right that men do not deserve is by definition, anti-Leftist and unrepresentative of Leftism as a political ideal.  All arguments supporting heirarchy, including the notion that women should have a unique right to hold an opinion on some particular subjec  are Right-WIng arguments by any dictionary's definition.
Platform like Youtube have a habit of censoring, or age restricting videos without any reason for it.
  • If you will provide a specific example of YouTube taking action, I'm pretty confident I can find YouTube's reasoning.
Now I wouldn't consider this a big deal, given that Youtube is it's own platform and has the right to take down whatever they please, but what I do find a big deal is that while those videos are getting age restricted, the kids videos on Youtube kids are teaching kids how to consent, showing kids videos promoting, suicidal themes, sexual themes, and LGBT indoctrination. Those videos are not only not taken down, but they aren't even age restricted, and what's worse is that it is on Youtube Kids. 
  • As you say, YouTube has a right publish as it sees fit without government intervention.  Let's agree that nobody under the age of 18 belongs on the Internet and the responsiblity for enforcement belongs 100% to parents.
, give me one exact time that they have published fake news, and not apologized or corrected themselves on. 
    • Climate Scientists: Climate Models Have Overestimated Global Warming
      • The article literally says "these Oxford scientists claim X"
      • 3 days later, all of those Oxford scientists come back and say "False, you totally misrepresented our findings and conclusion"
      • Scientists everywhere condemned the article as 100% FAKE NEWS
        • Andrew MacDougall: The article selectively quotes from interviews and scientific papers to create the false perception that climate models significantly overestimate the rate of warming. The article also falsely implies that the cited paper is about the so called “hiatus” while the paper is actually about the carbon budget for the 1.5 ºC target.
        • Pierre Friedlingstein: Bad coverage of the Nature Geoscience article. The title and first 3 paragraphs are misleading. It seems very clear that the author of this article did not read the scientific article he is reporting on.
    • Nevertheless, the Daily Wire has never apologized, corrected, or expained why they reported the opposite of the truth.
. It's not a falsehood or misrepresentation of Leftism.
  • Yes it is, quite obviously
Many leftist spokespersons, have said this in court, and to Congress. 
  • That should be easy for you to document.  I don't know how one identifies as a leftists spokesperson but some prominent Left-winger stating before Congress that men should not have a right to an opinion on abortion should suffice.
Ok, what?
  • I'm saying that its hard to know what is real, or idealogical, or American on the internet.  
Literally search up leftist arguemnts for abortions, and many youtube videos you can find of self proclaimed liberals, saying that men shouldn't have an opinion on abortion. It's not that hard. 
  • That's your job.  Many self-proclaimed Liberals are not leftist at all.  You need to demonstrate that your uniquely anti-Leftist claim is actually presented as Leftism.


#105
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@YouFound_Lxam
A. Trans-women aren't allowed to get opinions on abortion either, therefore proving that they aren't real women.
Or, that they are indeed women but still has no weight on opinions regarding uterus and similar matters.

Saying that this is absurd is like denying there are southerners who don't smoke pipes in a pickup truck with a confederate flag on it next to a field. Yes, I believe in present liberal standpoints, that "All women have uteruses" is not dissimilar from a stereotype. The overlap between (Those who are women) and (Those who have a uterus) exists, but does not prove they are exactly the same set.

#106
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In the ancient times and according to the Bible
You've mistaken me for someone who finds the Bible relevant to this conversation.
#107
ADreamOfLiberty
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@oromagi
, give me one exact time that they have published fake news, and not apologized or corrected themselves on. 
    • Climate Scientists: Climate Models Have Overestimated Global Warming
      • The article literally says "these Oxford scientists claim X"
      • 3 days later, all of those Oxford scientists come back and say "False, you totally misrepresented our findings and conclusion"
      • Scientists everywhere condemned the article as 100% FAKE NEWS
        • Andrew MacDougall: The article selectively quotes from interviews and scientific papers to create the false perception that climate models significantly overestimate the rate of warming. The article also falsely implies that the cited paper is about the so called “hiatus” while the paper is actually about the carbon budget for the 1.5 ºC target.
        • Pierre Friedlingstein: Bad coverage of the Nature Geoscience article. The title and first 3 paragraphs are misleading. It seems very clear that the author of this article did not read the scientific article he is reporting on.
    • Nevertheless, the Daily Wire has never apologized, corrected, or expained why they reported the opposite of the truth.
I confirm that was fake news.

John Bickley writes "The report, published in the journal Nature Geoscience on September 18, acknowledges that most of the models of warming trends failed to predict the “slowdown” in warming post-2000, resulting in less"

there is no discussion of models used before 2000, and models used after 2000 would be predicting from then on. While it may be true that pre-2000 models did overestimate the linked article does not discuss them.

Topic's author
#108
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@Intelligence_06
Or, that they are indeed women but still has no weight on opinions regarding uterus and similar matters.

Saying that this is absurd is like denying there are southerners who don't smoke pipes in a pickup truck with a confederate flag on it next to a field. Yes, I believe in present liberal standpoints, that "All women have uteruses" is not dissimilar from a stereotype. The overlap between (Those who are women) and (Those who have a uterus) exists, but does not prove they are exactly the same set.
So your saying that there are different types of women, and only certain types of women get to have an opinion on it.

Now you're saying that Trans-women are not the same as women. So, you by definition are saying that Trans-women are not women. 
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#109
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@oromagi
  • That works just fine.  So, obviously, no person who would argue that men should not have the same rights to opinion as women is "advocating for social equality"  They are doing the exact opposite of Leftism: they are arguing that men should not have the same rights as women in at least one respect.
Again, I am not saying all leftists claim this, nor am I saying that leftism supports this. I am simply calling out the leftists who do stand by this point.

  • I am sure you can find somebody who identifies as Left-wing and yet will make this Right-wing  argument but that just makes the individual less Leftist, it does not, as you have proposed here, make all Leftists responsible for an anti-Leftist remark.
Yes, that is exactly what I was saying. Not all leftists claim this opinion. I am not talking about them though. 

Your first proposition is fatally fucked:  So, you guys say that you can't have an opinion on abortion if you don't have a uterus, right?

The only truthful response is "Wrong, such a remark is entirely inconsistent with Leftism."
Obviously, you are still playing with the definitions, even though I clearly restated my claims, given your Lawer type arguments. 
But, for your sake, I shall do it again. 

"So, some leftists say that men shouldn't have an opinion on abortion, because they don't have a uterus, right? 
"But leftists also claim that you don't need a uterus to be a woman, right?"

"So, this is a question to those leftists who claim this. Can you have an opinion on abortion if you don't have a uterus?"

Wrong, Leftists believe that everybody gets an equal and sovereign right to define and descibe themselves as they see fit without government interference.   
Leftists believe that everybody gets an equal and sovereign right to define and describe themselves as they see fit. 
Ok, I agree with this too. I think that everyone should be able to define themselves however they choose. I may not agree with how they do it, and I as a person also have a right to question it, but I still think people should have that right, yes. 

The Leftist position is that no government may with justice enforce a label of "man" or "woman" on any citizen against their will.
..................this has never been a problem, so why are leftists fighting against this? The government is not forcing you to be anything. That is your choice. Please elaborate on what you mean by this. 

  • That is the opposite of true.  Leftism advocates that all men and women are equal in rights.  Any argument that women deserve a right that men do not deserve is by definition, anti-Leftist and unrepresentative of Leftism as a political ideal.  All arguments supporting heirarchy, including the notion that women should have a unique right to hold an opinion on some particular subjec  are Right-WIng arguments by any dictionary's definition.
Simple answer to this.

Transgenderism, and Feminism are both very liberal, and hold Leftist ideals.

  • If you will provide a specific example of YouTube taking action, I'm pretty confident I can find YouTube's reasoning.
I never said YouTube didn't have a reason for it. Maybe something in the video was concerning to them so they age restricted it down. Thats not a big deal to me, but what is a big deal is when they are censoring this stuff, and letting child pornography, and LGBTQ+ indoctrination on YouTube kids. 

  Let's agree that nobody under the age of 18 belongs on the Internet and the responsiblity for enforcement belongs 100% to parents.
Internet: Disagree, given there are a lot of research for school and learning potencial.
Social media: Agree. 

As you say, YouTube has a right publish as it sees fit without government intervention.
Except when those publishments are breaking the law, and they are doing nothing to stop it, even though they have the ability to do so. 

  • Climate Scientists: Climate Models Have Overestimated Global Warming
    • The article literally says "these Oxford scientists claim X"
    • 3 days later, all of those Oxford scientists come back and say "False, you totally misrepresented our findings and conclusion"
    • Scientists everywhere condemned the article as 100% FAKE NEWS
      • Andrew MacDougall: The article selectively quotes from interviews and scientific papers to create the false perception that climate models significantly overestimate the rate of warming. The article also falsely implies that the cited paper is about the so called “hiatus” while the paper is actually about the carbon budget for the 1.5 ºC target.
      • Pierre Friedlingstein: Bad coverage of the Nature Geoscience article. The title and first 3 paragraphs are misleading. It seems very clear that the author of this article did not read the scientific article he is reporting on.
  • Nevertheless, the Daily Wire has never apologized, corrected, or expained why they reported the opposite of the truth.
First of all, the article from the Daily Wire wasn't false. Maybe a bit misleading, but not false. Everything said on there was factual information. 
Therefore, it is not FAKE NEWS, it is just slightly misleading, and maybe misrepresenting. 





#110
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@YouFound_Lxam
"So, this is a question to those leftists who claim this. Can you have an opinion on abortion if you don't have a uterus?"
  • Leftists believe that everybody has an equal right to have an opinion on anything, irrespective of uterus status.

#111
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@YouFound_Lxam
So your saying that there are different types of women, and only certain types of women get to have an opinion on it.
It just keeps getting better.
#112
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@oromagi
Leftists believe that everybody has an equal right to have an opinion on anything, irrespective of uterus status.
History of every leftist country disagrees.
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#113
YouFound_Lxam
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@oromagi
  • Leftists believe that everybody has an equal right to have an opinion on anything, irrespective of uterus status.
Well it seems that you are not one of the extremely leftists that say men shouldn't have any opinions on abortion. 

It's settled then. 
#114
ADreamOfLiberty
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@YouFound_Lxam
First of all, the article from the Daily Wire wasn't false. Maybe a bit misleading, but not false. Everything said on there was factual information. 
Therefore, it is not FAKE NEWS, it is just slightly misleading, and maybe misrepresenting. 
It used quoted words that did not appear in the paper. That level of misrepresentation is fake news.

#115
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@oromagi
Leftism believes that no public policy should prevent any citizen from the expression of their opinon.  

So anyone who says, "a person should not express their opinion because of x," is not leftist or expressing leftism. 

So examples of "not leftist" would include the following??

Nazisms
Communists
Antifa (anti-fascists) 
Totaltarianism groups


.... I thought there was more to this list but I got a brain fart. Thus far thats the list. Add more or correct the list if you wish. 

Also, I hear rightism expresses the same desire, "no public policy should prevent any citizen from the expression of their opinon." 

How do we differentiate the two?

  • Leftists believe that everybody has an equal right to have an opinion on anything, irrespective of uterus status.
So appropraite response to hearing men should not have a say is to question a person's political aligntment, right? To get the correct demographic on the issue that is .. if o.p. wants to of coarse. 
#116
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@<<<oromagi>>>
Leftism believes that no public policy should prevent any citizen from the expression of their opinon.  
So anyone who says, "a person should not express their opinion because of x," is not leftist or expressing leftism. 

Nope.  No public policy should prevent expression of opinion.

So-
A Republican who says that drag queens should be banned from public performance because gender should be strictly enforced is only expressing his opinion and all good Leftist would support his right to say so.
A Republican lawmakers who passes laws banning drag queens from public performance because gender should be strictly enforced is violating the First Ammendment and no good Leftist would approve.

So examples of "not leftist" would include the following??

Nazisms
Communists
Antifa (anti-fascists) 
Totaltarianism groups

Communists and Antifa are more bogeymen than fact.  Certainly, I have never heard of a law written by a bona fide Communist or Anti-facist.  All NAZIs and Totalitarians are anti-Leftist by definition.

Actual Communism depends on the people controlling the means of production and that means real suffragism for all.  Although some 20th Century states claimed to be Communist, none of those states came even slightly close to being democratic and so those were just labels.  I don't think any serious people really think Communism was ever or should ever be a thing.  If Antifa has ever had any political power anywhere, I am not aware of it.

Also, I hear rightism expresses the same desire, "no public policy should prevent any citizen from the expression of their opinon." 
  • The American Right WIng gave up on ideology when they decided to follow Trump who regularly calls for state violence in response to  poltical dissent- "We could fix Portland in, I would say, 45 minutes," etc
    • Right now, we have Right-wingers firing school principles for calling Michelangelo's David free expression
    • RIght now, we have Right-wingers taking poltical autonomy away from Orlando because Disney dared to criticize a Republican Governor
  • Perhaps you are correct that Rightists say as much, but wherever the Republican party has political power they are  currently attacking free expression on all fronts.
So appropraite response to hearing men should not have a say is to question a person's political aligntment, right? To get the correct demographic on the issue that is .. if o.p. wants to of coarse. 
  • False.  Worthy Leftists (including, by extension, all worthy Americans) respond by saying "Everybody gets to have their say"


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@oromagi
 I don't think any serious people really think Communism was ever or should ever be a thing. 
I take offense at that.
#118
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@<<<oromagi>>>
 I don't think any serious people really think Communism was ever or should ever be a thing. 
I take offense at that.
  • Communism was just another 19th Utopian ideal.  Do you really believe as Marx did that the State "will wither away?"

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It's either that or we'll find ourselves in some Blade Runner-esque dystopia where the whole world is private property owned by a tiny fraction of humanity and the rest of us have been out to pasture in favour in robots.