UBI makes poor people work less

Author: Kaitlyn
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#31
sadolite
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@Kaitlyn
The US is 31 trillion in debt with 287 trillion in unfunded mandates years into the future. Where will these magical dollars come from to pay all theses people? And will the current welfare system be abolished or will this just be added to it?
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#32
Kaitlyn
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@sadolite
The US is 31 trillion in debt with 287 trillion in unfunded mandates years into the future. Where will these magical dollars come from to pay all theses people? And will the current welfare system be abolished or will this just be added to it?
This thread isn't trying to solve the USA's debt issues. This thread just shows UBI doesn't work unless it's conditionally given.
#33
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@Kaitlyn
OK, but with that said every country on earth is up to their eyeballs in debt. So my point still stands. Where does all this magical money come from? 
#34
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@sadolite
@Kaitlyn
It does appear that some nations that tried UBI found some level of success. There did appear to be limitations. If UBI makes "poor people work less", then the UBI might be too high. Some UBI "experiments" seemed to make people happier, Many plans have strict requirements such as abiding by the law as a condition to receive UBI.  Probably UBI would have to be highly tailored to cultural  mind sets. 
#35
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@sadolite
This is a question I've asked countless times.

If everyone is in debt, but there is still plenty to borrow.

Someone must be creating money from nothing.



Of course, money is now  binary data whereas it used to be written down in big books.

And a pocket full of magic tokens.


Can you imagine the chaos if some clever person created a global  virus and eliminated all traces of money.

It would have been much harder to gather up all the big books and burn then.
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#36
Kaitlyn
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@prefix
If UBI makes "poor people work less", then the UBI might be too high.
Maybe.

It was half minimum wage and a fraction of yearly income according to two of the studies. I think half of minimum wage is pretty damn low already.

Some UBI "experiments" seemed to make people happier
Which ones?

Many plans have strict requirements such as abiding by the law as a condition to receive UBI.
This seems to be a good idea. Most crime is committed by a small percentage of the population, and, frankly, you want to be removing those repeat criminals as quickly as possible, rather than financially backing them (they're never going to be productive members of society).

Probably UBI would have to be highly tailored to cultural  mind sets. 
Yes.

One of the studies talked about how UBI was great for super poor countries (all the studies tested 1st world countries). Countries vary in their collectivist-individualism, too. 

A UBI made for every country is made for none.
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#37
Kaitlyn
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@sadolite
OK, but with that said every country on earth is up to their eyeballs in debt. So my point still stands. Where does all this magical money come from? 
Not every country: List of countries by external debt - Wikipedia . Some literally have zero debt. Some are currently experiencing budget surpluses, too Countries With The Largest Budget Surplus - WorldAtlas .

You being American probably skewers your view because America has the largest debt out of any country.

But to answer your question, you could even go into debt to help these people get back into meaningful work, and hence reap the rewards long-term (but not having them eat welfare).
#38
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@Kaitlyn
"Where does the money come from to pay all these people ?"
#39
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@Kaitlyn
I stated "Some UBI "experiments" seemed to make people happier" and you asked  "Which ones?".

Finland.


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#40
Kaitlyn
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@sadolite
"Where does the money come from to pay all these people ?"
Without going into specifics, it comes from running a balanced budget? How do you do that? That's a big question that varies from country to country, and it needs its own thread.
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#41
Kaitlyn
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@prefix
I stated "Some UBI "experiments" seemed to make people happier" and you asked  "Which ones?".

Finland.
Which Finland study?
#42
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@Kaitlyn
"Universal basic income experiment made people happier but not more likely to get a job"

"Finland's Social Insurance Institution (FSII) has published the results of an income experiment it carried out for two years to learn more about ways to reduce unemployment. They report that their experiment showed that giving unemployed people a no-strings-attached guaranteed income instead of an unemployment allowance made them happier and less stressed—but it did not make them any more or less likely to get a job."



#43
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@Kaitlyn
" it comes from running a balanced budget?" I  don't think you have any understanding of where govts gets the money it spends. Just my personal observation based on your last response.
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#44
Kaitlyn
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@sadolite
I don't think you have any understanding of where govts gets the money it spends. Just my personal observation based on your last response.
Nobody of importance cares about what you think. They only care about what you know and can show.

So, show us how you know this or don't bother making the comment.
#45
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@Kaitlyn
Should I go into specifics?  Or should I answer "without going into specifics?"
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#46
Kaitlyn
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@prefix
"Universal basic income experiment made people happier but not more likely to get a job"

"Finland's Social Insurance Institution (FSII) has published the results of an income experiment it carried out for two years to learn more about ways to reduce unemployment. They report that their experiment showed that giving unemployed people a no-strings-attached guaranteed income instead of an unemployment allowance made them happier and less stressed—but it did not make them any more or less likely to get a job."

Okay.

So, their happiness is coming at the expense of the taxpayers who support their lifestyle. They also seemed to become dependent on the UBI because they weren't more likely to get a job.

I do wonder about the effect automation is going to have on everything. Eventually, robots will be able to do a lot of jobs, and working may become optional. It's probably fairer to have UBI then and give extra money to those who want to work.

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#47
Kaitlyn
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@sadolite
Should I go into specifics?  Or should I answer "without going into specifics?"
This is a thread on UBI, not balanced budgets. I'm trying not to have it derailed.

If you want to talk about balanced budgets in depth, you're more than welcome to make your own thread.
#48
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@Kaitlyn
I didn't bring up balanced budgets, you did. I am asking a legitimate question  directly related to the subject. Where is all the money going to come from to fund it and will the current welfare system be abolished or will this just be added to it?
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#49
Kaitlyn
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@sadolite
I didn't bring up balanced budgets, you did. I am asking a legitimate question  directly related to the subject. Where is all the money going to come from to fund it and will the current welfare system be abolished or will this just be added to it?
This thread isn't about 'where would the money come from?' This thread is about UBI being effective/ineffective. This is a theoretical discussion.
#50
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@Kaitlyn
Sooo Implementation of such a plan is irrelevant, got it. 
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#51
Kaitlyn
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@sadolite
Sooo Implementation of such a plan is irrelevant, got it. 
It's relevant once we discover whether it's a good idea or not. 
#52
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@Kaitlyn
all righty then.
#53
Best.Korea
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@Kaitlyn
It was half minimum wage and a fraction of yearly income according to two of the studies. I think half of minimum wage is pretty damn low already.
I guess if everyone in USA received 50$ per month as basic income, that would be much lower than half of minimum wage.

It really depends on what we set as standard.

Is it 50$ or 100$ or 500$ or 1000$ or 3000$.

Because 50$ would just slightly reduce poverty, but I doubt it would have much effect on employment.

The main problem with UBI is in finding this balance. 

The goal is to have people work. UBI shouldnt make people refuse to work. If it does, then it sucks.
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#54
Kaitlyn
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@Best.Korea
The goal is to have people work. UBI shouldnt make people refuse to work. If it does, then it sucks.
Yes, the data supports this conclusion.

9 days later

#55
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@Kaitlyn
What I would like to see is a hybrid of welfare, minimum wage labor and ubi.

The way it would work is that people have to work, but they can do anything they want to as many hours they want even if it is 1 hour a week, even if it's to watch pigeons all day.

They get paid a "living wage" for doing it and the employer is compensated for the difference between the actual value of the labor and the living wage as if he was a social worker giving a purpose to a handicapped person.