Antinatalism is theoretically correct

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Without concretely proving it, antinatalism appears to have the framework to be correct, without having all the concrete required to fill the framework:


1a) There is always a negative affect before a positive affect, in regards to all humans as a whole (not necessarily to individual humans -- one person's gain can come at the expense of others). Happiness, pleasure, joy etc. (positive affect) are the result of relieving oneself/people of sadness, pain, sorrow etc. (negative affect).

For example, we don't feel relief in drinking unless we were previously thirsty. You can drink without being thirsty, but you won't experience positive affect in that. It's the preceding negative affect which allows for the creation of the positive affect.

Furthermore, when someone is relieved, boredom slowly creeps in (which is negative affect). So, even if you achieve your goals and relieve yourself of the negative affect, you'll soon be hampered by boredom! And you know what is required to counteract boredom? A goal (i.e. something that produces negative affect). So, both achievement of goals AND working towards goals creates negative affect (and only offers the chance of positive affect).

You can further compound this negativity by the existence of comparison, of which makes positive affect have a limited ceiling. In other words, because you can compare your lot in life to others, even if in isolation you would experience positive affect, you may experience negative affect if you see your lot in life as less than others (and will be particularly aggrieved if you deem this difference unfair). An example of this: people prefer being objectively poorer if they are relatively richer compared to those around them -- not everyone can be relatively richer than everyone else around them Is more always better?: A survey on positional concerns - ScienceDirect 

Thus, negative affect is guaranteed whereas positive affect is not.

Therefore, there will always be more instances of negative affect experienced than instances of positive affect experienced.

The question now becomes: despite having greater instances of negative affect, do they outweigh the fewer instances of positive affect?


1b) Per unit, negative affect outweighs positive affect

Albeit, this is an exercise in estimation, as we cannot (currently) measure and compare ever instance of positive and negative affect to have been experienced by humans (it's framework without the concrete).

But, nonetheless, we can estimate.

What do you think of drinking water? If you could flip a coin to (heads) experience your quenched thirst or (tails) to experience dehydration, would you flip the coin? According to current loss aversion theories, people would prefer not to flip the coin because they don't like risking their status quo Higgins_et_al-2018-Journal_of_Consumer_Psychology.pdf (columbia.edu) . In fact, people would be far more willing to take risks to avoid dehydration, than they would to gain a more pleasant drinking experience (perhaps a sugary beverage instead of water). Hence, we have the backing of research to suggest that per unit, negative affect outweighs positive affect.

Since per unit, negative affect outweighs positive affect, and from argument 1a we saw that there are more instances of negative affect, it follows that there is a larger value of negative affect than positive affect in life, thus human life shouldn't be brought into existence.


2) Humans are totally unable to consent to life. This problem is amplified by the entirety of the arguments above, but it's also a problem in itself.

It's morally questionable to impose upon people serious conditions (in this instance: life) without their permission. Even if you think it's a good idea, and even if the life ends up being a good one, there is guaranteed risk involved (e.g. cancer, disease, childbirth complications, death etc.) which parents impose without consent.

It would be like someone using your money to go to the casino. Would you like it if someone did that? We already know they're playing against the odds (see my above argument 1a + 1b). Even if the person were to double your money, they still used your money without your permission. They still risked your money without asking you first. This is analogous to bringing humans into existence -- no consent beforehand.

Thus, parents gambling with the wellbeing of others without their consent is immoral. Therefore, childbirth is immoral.
Best.Korea
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Sadly, some people believe in antinatalism.

More and more people choose not to have children.

Not having children saves money, of course.

Kindergarten alone costs 2000$ per month.

So yes, there is incentive to not have children.
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@Best.Korea
The thread isn't about whether there is "incentive" as to having children. It's about whether it's morally correct to have children.

Children being expensive isn't even a serious deterrent anyway. If I thought bringing children into existence was a moral good, I'd gladly foot the cost to bring a lot of good into existence. 'It's too expensive' sounds like an NPC excuse to not rock the boat too much, because telling people they're morally bankrupt for having children is certainly going to ruffle feathers.
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@Kaitlyn
Most of the people dont have morality, so an appeal to morality would be useless. But they do like extra 2000$ per month.
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@Best.Korea
Most of the people dont have morality
This isn't a thread about whether "most people" are moral. It's a thread about what is moral. It's a thread about whether it's a good idea to bring people into existence.

Please stop attempting to derail the thread.


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@Kaitlyn
Okay okay.

I sniff my own laundry, so I dont need yours.
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These are some HI cal decisions guys. 


Kaitlyn is definitely playing.   ( Socrates ) 
Andddd
Best-kor is   (  Plato   ) 

MORALS WITH  SOCKS AND THE PLATE IN THE MORNING 



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@Best.Korea
I sniff my own laundry, so I dont need yours.
I'm happy that you're able to do that to your own, because you certainly wouldn't be getting mine.
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@Kaitlyn
You can drink without being thirsty, but you won't experience positive affect in that.
I would disagree with this too. When I speak a little prayer over a glass of water, I feel good drinking it even if I am not thirsty. I guess its God's magic.

I guess you have to be religious to know that life is good and full of magic.

The only ones complaining about how life is horrible are atheists.
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@Kaitlyn
White Supremacists wish they were never born.
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@Kaitlyn

 An estimate, calculated in 2009, puts the true dollar amount for raising a child from birth through undergrad years at a whopping $1.1 million.
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Oh I remember this. This user is adopted to parents who later had biological children and left her to her chores without love. This was the whole song and dance and crybaby reason for it all. Mixing cultures is the parallel on the marco scale. Probably also the reason for the weird prudish red-pill wannabe housewife stuff, she's already doing the chores, missing the love. 
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@badger
Oh I remember this. This user is adopted to parents who later had biological children and left her to her chores without love. This was the whole song and dance and crybaby reason for it all. Mixing cultures is the parallel on the marco scale. Probably also the reason for the weird prudish red-pill wannabe housewife stuff, she's already doing the chores, missing the love. 
All she has to do is take a pumpkin Uber and go to the ball anyway, 
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@Kaitlyn
Thus, parents gambling with the wellbeing of others without their consent is immoral. Therefore, childbirth is immoral.
What makes you think the parents didn't get thier unborn child's consent.  I mean, if you are going to play makes believe that the parents need to get thier unborn child's consent, can't they make believe that the unborn child gave consent?
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I don't believe that one person's life will predict another's after birth therefore I don't think it is with certainty that one could say bringing them into existence would have an overall negative effect. This is a possibility but it's also possible that they could become incredibly happy with life and value it.

Being that it is not certain that one can say a child's life could be overall positive or negative, it is not definitely a right or wrong choice for any parent to have or not have a child. It's dependent on whether the child views life positively or negatively that determines whether or not it had a positive or negative impact on the child for being born. The perspective development that the child views the world through is entirely dependent on its upbringing and parenting. Therefore, I do not believe that it is negative or positive that a parent bring a child into the world but rather it is dependent on how they raise the child to react with the world and how to view the world positively and then through the child's development of a positive outlook on life the child can live life happy and responsibly, and this is the ideal goal for a parent.

Ultimately, if a parent fails at raising their child to view the world positively and productively then it was the right choice to have a child. However, if they fail at raising the child with a positive outlook on life, then they should not have had a child. Noticeably, you cannot know if it is the right or wrong choice to have a child until you have raised them, and this is why having or not having a child is not inherently right or wrong, but rather dependent on how the child develops its view of life. 
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@Kaitlyn
Theoretically correct is a contradiction.

A theory is an unproven proposition and therefore is neither correct nor incorrect.


Nonetheless, morals are just made up stuff

Rather like antinatalism.

Whereas procreation is about as real as the species gets.


Do you think that trees worry about antinatalism after a good pollenating.
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@FLRW
 An estimate, calculated in 2009, puts the true dollar amount for raising a child from birth through undergrad years at a whopping $1.1 million.
The moral reasons are far more important and this is what the thread is about. People are willing to pay large amounts of money for things that they think are worthwhile. This is reflected through research (only 17% of Americans state "financial reasons" for not having children: More childless U.S. adults now say they don’t plan to ever have kids| Pew Research Center )

This is also in America, one of the most expensive places in the world. This is also including undergrad years, of which not all Americans end up doing (or even having their parents pay for). This is also $1.1 million over 18 years, rather than a lump sum of $1.1 million right now (far less financially punishing).

If having children is immoral, that takes precedence over discussion addressing the expenses.
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@Critical-Tim
I don't believe that one person's life will predict another's after birth therefore I don't think it is with certainty that one could say bringing them into existence would have an overall negative effect. This is a possibility but it's also possible that they could become incredibly happy with life and value it.
I've already made a case for the opposite with 1a and 1b. Do you want to address that or just state your opinion?

Being that it is not certain that one can say a child's life could be overall positive or negative, it is not definitely a right or wrong choice for any parent to have or not have a child. 
Would you be okay with someone taking you money (without your permission) and gambling with it in a casino?

The perspective development that the child views the world through is entirely dependent on its upbringing and parenting.
What happens if they child dies at age 4 from sickle cell anemia? Is that bad "parenting" or dependent on "upbringing?"

Therefore, I do not believe that it is negative or positive that a parent bring a child into the world but rather it is dependent on how they raise the child to react with the world and how to view the world positively and then through the child's development of a positive outlook on life the child can live life happy and responsibly, and this is the ideal goal for a parent.
What is life has inherently more negative affect than positive affect, as outlined in 1a and 1b?

Ultimately, if a parent fails at raising their child to view the world positively and productively then it was the right choice to have a child. However, if they fail at raising the child with a positive outlook on life, then they should not have had a child. Noticeably, you cannot know if it is the right or wrong choice to have a child until you have raised them, and this is why having or not having a child is not inherently right or wrong, but rather dependent on how the child develops its view of life. 
What if an infant dies horribly and in serious pain from having a malformed heart, at 4 days of age?

Should the infant have been more positive?
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@zedvictor4
Theoretically correct is a contradiction.

A theory is an unproven proposition and therefore is neither correct nor incorrect.
Theoretically correct implies that it is yet to be proven (hence, currently neither correct nor incorrect), hence the marriage of the terms is logically consistent.

Nonetheless, morals are just made up stuff
Lol.

I'd be interesting if someone firebombed your house or bashed your children. I wonder if you'd say, "morals are just made up stuff" then.

Whereas procreation is about as real as the species gets.
I'm glad you think that inflicting wanton pain on others isn't real nor bad.

How enlightened.

Do you think that trees worry about antinatalism after a good pollenating.
Trees aren't sentient creatures. 

The universal sentient experience of negative affect (e.g. pain) applies to sentient creatures (sentient creatures that include even you, despite you producing absolute nonsense like "morals are just made up stuff").
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This thread suddenly attracted a lot of worthless trolls.

At least some of the posts are worth responding to.
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@Kaitlyn
The jury is out on trees, they are certainly more social creatures than we gave them credit for.


Nope, theory is theory and correct is correct....In my opinion

If one is repeating theory, then it might be considered correct, but only if it was repeated correctly.


If you firebombed my house and bashed my children, then that is what you would do. The abstract concept of morality would be a tad irrelevant.


And I'm not sure where me inflicting wanton pain fits into the argument. It's you who's the wannabe firebomber and child basher.


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@zedvictor4
The jury is out on trees, they are certainly more social creatures than we gave them credit for.
They're not sentient.

Actually, you know what: if they were sentient, that would be *way* more ammunition for antinatalism. Think about all the deforestation that has occurred. Think about how uncaring the world is to trees.

We're lucky they're not sentient.

Nope, theory is theory and correct is correct....In my opinion

If one is repeating theory, then it might be considered correct, but only if it was repeated correctly.
There's nothing wrong with saying "theoretically correct".

Repeating tautologies like 'theory is theory' does nothing to debunk this fact.

If you firebombed my house and bashed my children, then that is what you would do. The abstract concept of morality would be a tad irrelevant.
How about if someone did that because of the color of your skin?

Wouldn't matter, right?

And I'm not sure where me inflicting wanton pain fits into the argument. It's you who's the wannabe firebomber and child basher.
Wrong.

I said "if someone" were to do that, not that I would do that (I don't want to).

You're the one claiming that you're indifferent to it on a moral level (which is not true).
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@Kaitlyn
I apologize for coming to the conversation a bit late and thank you for addressing the initial post, I should have read over it before stating my opinion. Yes, I would like to address it.

1a) There is always a negative affect before a positive affect, in regards to all humans as a whole (not necessarily to individual humans -- one person's gain can come at the expense of others). Happiness, pleasure, joy etc. (positive affect) are the result of relieving oneself/people of sadness, pain, sorrow etc. (negative affect).
Positive effects can arise from various sources, including accomplishments, negative experiences, neutral states, or even in the absence of something they value becoming theirs. An example of this would be someone who does not have a 2023 Corvette, is this a negative emotion or merely not a positive one I would say this is not a positive or negative effect as people recognize this is a difficult wish to be fulfilled. However, being given the Corvette would have a substantial positive effect on your attitude and view of life, you would instantly be grateful and happy that someone would be willing to give you such a gift. Perhaps even you have accomplished tons of work in your new business and have finally worked up to the revenue provided by your business to finally purchase the car in which you would also have an incredible sense of accomplishment from overcoming such a large obstacle. Obstacles are not necessarily bad, but their existence makes good things all the greater. If you could beat a toddler at tic-tac-toe, you would not feel very accomplished and therefore there was not much of an obstacle to overcoming your goal of beating them. However, if your goal was to beat the world champion at chess and you were able to do so you would feel amazing accomplishment as you overcame such an enormous obstacle. This is also keeping in mind that your acknowledgement that if you did not beat the world champion does not necessarily imply a negative effect as you would have expected this. In other words, you had nothing to lose by attempting to beat the world champion, and everything to gain. This is a clear example of how positive effects can emerge from neutral or negative ones along with the absence of positive or how positive can arise out of obstacles. In your first case you're implying that happiness which has a positive effect arises only out of negativity. Yet, as demonstrated here, that is not the case.

1b) Per unit, negative affect outweighs positive affect

What do you think of drinking water? If you could flip a coin to (heads) experience your quenched thirst or (tails) to experience dehydration, would you flip the coin? According to current loss aversion theories, people would prefer not to flip the coin because they don't like risking their status quo Higgins_et_al-2018-Journal_of_Consumer_Psychology.pdf (columbia.edu) . In fact, people would be far more willing to take risks to avoid dehydration, than they would to gain a more pleasant drinking experience (perhaps a sugary beverage instead of water). Hence, we have the backing of research to suggest that per unit, negative affect outweighs positive affect.
I believe you're misinterpreting the research that was done here. Your argument is that because people would not be willing to gamble for a potentially positive or negative position from what they have, then they must be more afraid of negative. I could make the claim that a person in a overall positive position would not be willing to take the chance for a positive or negative place being that they've worked so hard to accomplish the positive in which they're at whereas a person who has a terribly negative life or perhaps has given up on life would be much more willing to gamble for a better one since they have practically nothing to lose. In other words, I see this research as an implication that people value what they have which demonstrates that they are grateful for their accomplishment and not willing to hastily waste or gamble them. Ultimately, I don't see this research as evidence that negative Things outweigh the positive ones but rather people value what they have and believe it should not be gambled, thus demonstrating their positive value towards it.

What happens if they child dies at age 4 from sickle cell anemia? Is that bad "parenting" or dependent on "upbringing?"
You're correct, it is not entirely dependent on upbringing. I failed to accurately express my words, as I was trying to emphasize the massive dependency of parenting that contributes to the morality of childbirth. I do acknowledge that there are tragedies in life that affect people in terribly negative ways. However, if a person views life positively which is dependent on the child's upbringing and parenting then that child would be willing to risk the potential negative tragedies of life in order to have the chance to experience the world. An amazing film that depicts this is on Netflix called "Bubble" which is a 2022 Japanese Anime. It demonstrates that if people view the world through a positive lens, they are more than willing to accept the negative tragedies in life in order to have the chance to experience the many positive ones. (It made me cry, LOL) this brings us full circle that it is dependent on how the child would view the world in their adulthood that would determine whether they would risk the negative tragedies of life to have a potential to experience the positive ones. This would be dependent on the parenting.

To directly answer the question, I would say it is dependent on the child's parenting. if the child's parenting would have provided the child a positive view of the world in which they would have been glad to take on the risk in order to experience life, then I believe the child would have been grateful for the opportunity but of course disappointed that it turned out they were unable to experience it. Ultimately, the morality of bringing a child into existence without their consent would be dependent on what the child would have said in their adulthood, And the child was raised in a way that views the world positively overall or is more grateful for the things that are taken for granted every day then they would have been grateful for the chance of experiencing life. Therefore, dependent on parenting and the way that the child would have viewed the world in their adulthood would depend on whether or not it is moral for them to be brought into existence and accepting the potential for the tragedies of life. Your attempt would be to do what the child would have wanted you to do. This would vary among individuals based on how they view the world and most likely a genetically similar child would have similar views of life, assuming they were raised similar to how their parents were raised.
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@Kaitlyn
I find people who come together on a public debate platform in an attempt to solve problems are typically not trolls. Trolls are all on social media.
I appreciate your views, and willingness to share them reasonably.
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@zedvictor4
@Kaitlyn
Please correct me if I'm wrong Zed, but I believe Zed used a poor choice of words in what they were trying to express, and I'm in agreement. It was not that morals don't exist or aren't real, but rather they aren't inherent or within the thing itself, rather they are based upon the individual. In other words, acknowledging the necessity of a moral standard for a civil foundation, but at the same time recognizing they do not exist within the thing itself, but rather created by a group of individuals. Moreover, if no one values a diamond, it has no value. This is why in the desert one could trade money for water, but in the city, you could trade water for money. This implies that the things themselves have no value because it is subject to the individual's experiences and circumstances, which means that value is not an inherent thing but rather created by how much the people who value it do so.
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@Kaitlyn
@Critical-Tim
Ok, so I am an exponent of the idea that everything that occurs within a universe is real.

Then there is thinking man who possesses the power of differentiation.

Which inevitably results in contradiction.....Something that we are all inevitably guilty of.

So differentiating for a moment, I still hold that morals are "made up stuff" and not biologically inherent.

But nonetheless real within a social data context and therefore socially inherent, but also variable relative to social sub-groups.


Though, we have strayed from the philosophical proposition regarding antinatalism and theoretical correctness.

Which I would suggest are just more made up stuff, necessitated not by morality but by the necessity of philosophical differentiation.


Nonetheless, the idea of antinatalism is slowly becoming more mainstream and will perhaps evolve into some new capitalist venture, rather like transsexual ideology has done.

Overthinking kids suing overthinking parents, adding to the crock of gold that is the litigation industry.

Though I'm not sure what kids will do if they win their case.

Spend their compensation on assisted suicide in Switzerland perhaps.....Moral dilemma me thinks.
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@zedvictor4
I don't believe that it would change much if society decided Antinatalism was morally wrong based on the societal standard. I believe it would reveal the apparent flaw in our moral system that we believe that it's morally wrong to preserve life and that there must be a flaw with how we view the world, rather than implicating that giving birth is wrong.
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@Critical-Tim
The problem with "society" deciding a "societal standard".

Is that it is rarely society that decides.

Usually just a handful of Academics and/or influential people.

Who want to tell us what we should decide.


Intellectual tyranny as it were.


Nonetheless, modern religious ideology has been thrashing out it's message for 2000 years or so and, failed to achieve totality.

Human tyranny breeds human resentment.

So I would suggest that to achieve a state of ideological totality, will require a more advanced level of connected intelligence. 
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@Critical-Tim
I apologize for coming to the conversation a bit late and thank you for addressing the initial post, I should have read over it before stating my opinion. Yes, I would like to address it.
Not a problem :)

1a) There is always a negative affect before a positive affect, in regards to all humans as a whole (not necessarily to individual humans -- one person's gain can come at the expense of others). Happiness, pleasure, joy etc. (positive affect) are the result of relieving oneself/people of sadness, pain, sorrow etc. (negative affect).
Positive effects can arise from various sources, including accomplishments, negative experiences, neutral states, or even in the absence of something they value becoming theirs. An example of this would be someone who does not have a 2023 Corvette, is this a negative emotion or merely not a positive one I would say this is not a positive or negative effect as people recognize this is a difficult wish to be fulfilled. However, being given the Corvette would have a substantial positive effect on your attitude and view of life, you would instantly be grateful and happy that someone would be willing to give you such a gift. Perhaps even you have accomplished tons of work in your new business and have finally worked up to the revenue provided by your business to finally purchase the car in which you would also have an incredible sense of accomplishment from overcoming such a large obstacle.
Let's address your "various sources" first:

Accomplishments have a goal before them, hence a negative state wherein the person is working towards a goal (because they don't like their non-goal state of being, so we should consider that being to exist in a state of negative affect). Negative experiences obviously come before positive ones, so that's a given. Neutral states result in boredom if lingered in for too long, of which is itself a negative state. I don't know how an "absence of something they value" results in a positive state.

Not having a Corvette, in this scenario, results in a negative emotion and that's proven negative by the fact that someone would work for the Corvette. If people were neutral towards the Corvette (or not feeling a positive emotion towards the thought of having it), then they wouldn't be willing to exert effort and invest time (i.e. work) into it. In other words, they are willing to sacrifice effort and time to own a Corvette because not having a Corvette results in a negative state of being.

Obstacles are not necessarily bad
They are bad. If they weren't we wouldn't be trying to work around them.

If you could beat a toddler at tic-tac-toe, you would not feel very accomplished and therefore there was not much of an obstacle to overcoming your goal of beating them. However, if your goal was to beat the world champion at chess and you were able to do so you would feel amazing accomplishment as you overcame such an enormous obstacle. This is also keeping in mind that your acknowledgement that if you did not beat the world champion does not necessarily imply a negative effect as you would have expected this.
This amplifies the problem of existence because that positive feeling of accomplishment is expensive in terms of time and effort. It would be better if we could experience genuine accomplish in beating a toddler.

Losing, even if expected, is never a positive experience. The negative feelings found in losing could be mitigated if you don't expect to beat the world champ, but this is not positive in the slightest.

1b) Per unit, negative affect outweighs positive affect

What do you think of drinking water? If you could flip a coin to (heads) experience your quenched thirst or (tails) to experience dehydration, would you flip the coin? According to current loss aversion theories, people would prefer not to flip the coin because they don't like risking their status quo Higgins_et_al-2018-Journal_of_Consumer_Psychology.pdf (columbia.edu) . In fact, people would be far more willing to take risks to avoid dehydration, than they would to gain a more pleasant drinking experience (perhaps a sugary beverage instead of water). Hence, we have the backing of research to suggest that per unit, negative affect outweighs positive affect.
I believe you're misinterpreting the research that was done here. Your argument is that because people would not be willing to gamble for a potentially positive or negative position from what they have, then they must be more afraid of negative. I could make the claim that a person in a overall positive position would not be willing to take the chance for a positive or negative place being that they've worked so hard to accomplish the positive in which they're at whereas a person who has a terribly negative life or perhaps has given up on life would be much more willing to gamble for a better one since they have practically nothing to lose. In other words, I see this research as an implication that people value what they have which demonstrates that they are grateful for their accomplishment and not willing to hastily waste or gamble them. Ultimately, I don't see this research as evidence that negative Things outweigh the positive ones but rather people value what they have and believe it should not be gambled, thus demonstrating their positive value towards it.
I think the effect you're speaking of is at play here, hence why people with less are more willing to risk their status quo for better.

However, people of all status quos tend to prefer those status quos (including those with not a whole lot to lose): "It has been shown that people tend to view gains differently from losses and to prefer the status quo, even when the status quo is established merely through the premise of a hypothetical survey question".

So, whilst your suggestion is correct, the greater effect is that *all* people are more afraid of negatives from any status quo, than they are drawn towards potential positives.

What happens if they child dies at age 4 from sickle cell anemia? Is that bad "parenting" or dependent on "upbringing?"
To directly answer the question, I would say it is dependent on the child's parenting. if the child's parenting would have provided the child a positive view of the world in which they would have been glad to take on the risk in order to experience life, then I believe the child would have been grateful for the opportunity but of course disappointed that it turned out they were unable to experience it. Ultimately, the morality of bringing a child into existence without their consent would be dependent on what the child would have said in their adulthood,
None of our moral systems operate purely on intent (of which you're illustrating here).

For example, if you plow your car into a bunch of pedestrians, even if you accidentally lost control, you're still responsible for the people hurt. You can't turn up to court and say, "I wasn't trying to hurt them". That might reduce your sentence length, but you're still getting a sentence.

Similarly, you can't excuse the agonizing suffering a child experiences before he/she dies at a young age of sickle cell anemia, with your excuse being, "I wasn't trying to hurt them". The fact is that your decision to give birth to that child resulted in them dying horribly at a young age, regardless of whether you intended that or not.

You got in the car (had the child). You're responsible for what happens with your car (your child).

Being that it is not certain that one can say a child's life could be overall positive or negative, it is not definitely a right or wrong choice for any parent to have or not have a child. 
Would you be okay with someone taking you money (without your permission) and gambling with it in a casino?
[No response yet]
I would like to see your response to this, please.

I find people who come together on a public debate platform in an attempt to solve problems are typically not trolls. Trolls are all on social media.
I appreciate your views, and willingness to share them reasonably.
Yes, they're typically not, but Sidewalker and IwantRooseveltagain are trolls. Best Korea doesn't understand the antinatalism argument at all. Badger is a snowflake SJW with an inability to debate properly, hence his tendency towards violence. 

Not everyone is worth responding to.

Critical-Tim
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@zedvictor4
The problem with "society" deciding a "societal standard".
Is that it is rarely society that decides.
Usually just a handful of Academics and/or influential people.
Who want to tell us what we should decide.
Intellectual tyranny as it were.
I agree that societal influence often comes from influential individuals like movie stars rather than society as a whole. However, I believe it is a mistake to label this phenomenon as "intellectual tyranny." Tyranny typically involves ruling over others and controlling their choices, which is different from the situation you described. In this case, individuals who follow influential figures may be mentally incapable of leading or thinking for themselves, or they willingly choose to follow because they lack the desire to think for themselves. This distinction is important to make, as it distinguishes between being controlled and lacking the capacity or willingness for self-leadership. Therefore, I would argue that it is not accurate to refer to this phenomenon as "intellectual tyranny."