Let's actually do something

Author: badger

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Below are responses regarding the current state of the conversation on Dart:

oro:
I think my opinion is pretty well advertised at this point.  I do think that our collective tolerance of a high volume of hate speech targeting minorities is a drag on our site's image as a home for rational discourse and a giant KEEP OUT sign for exactly the kind of  academic or competive debaters to which this site is supposed to appeal.  Instead  of hosting  a place where speech and reason can be refined as an improvement to democratic soicety, we're babysitting the  sad compulsions of a small number of low information antisocials with nothing better to do all day than to entertain themselves with the harm they inflict on strangers.   I think we've all learned the tough way that such individuals always believe they are victims of society and culture and nothing reinforces their victimization narrative quite as effectively as the enforcement of rules.  The behavior is meant to provoke punishment which in turn reinforces the narrative of persecution.

As a liberal, I want to encourage the free expression of opinion, even dismaying opinion, even fake opinion.  As a moderator, I want to improve the atmosphere and intellect of this site but I believe the most effective means is probably not a more rigid interpretation of the code of conduct.  The most effective means I know is posts exactly like this- long time DARTers speaking up about the harm that anti-social, anti-democratic, anti-intellectual speech inflicts on a democratic society which is the only kind of society that upholds free speech and fair debate.
SkepticalOne:
Consistent and extreme voices can cause harm to a site. Is that happening here? Well, I agree with OP, DART compares negatively to the site it emulates. I think there is an argument to be made that some users intentionally rely on heavy rhetoric, propaganda, lies, dishonest tactics, etc. all having the effect of killing an honest exchange and comparison of ideas and ideologies.
Barney:
would any of us have stayed or got caught if the mood of DDO then was what DART is today?
I’ll admit that I would not.

While there certainly were plenty of assholes shitting all over the place in DDO, I was always confident the normal people outnumbered them by a wide margin; and there were dicks like Imabench around fucking the assholes.

Plus when I joined DDO I was in university, needing lots of writing practice.



I’ll freely admit I’d prefer to just be rid of anyone I consider to be morally intolerable. From there it’s be a slippery slope to banning people I find intellectually intolerable (which is to say utter morons and gaslighters).

I of course rarely put bans in place (aside from the countless ad bots, which are unworthy of being mentioned in the public log). I try to moderate based on the will of the site, with only limited attempts to manipulate the site zingiest (pushing legibility to replace spelling and grammar as an example).



I should mention that this site doesn’t have true freedom of speech, nor should it. However, we must not let it devolve into an echo chamber either. We need room for controversial opinions, as disagreements are core to our value proposition. IMHO, striking the right balance should be the near-term goal.
whiteflame:
I think we have some general agreement going on here. I think you guys could start with deleting all those ugly threads in the Society board.
Similar to Barney, I'm not fond of the direction this site has gone, but there's a limit to how we can (or should) intervene based on the existing rules of the site. Deleting all those threads requires a basis that either exists in the current rules of the site or would be added to those rules. I agree, I've got problems with a lot of those threads, and I suspect that yes, they are having some effect on people considering joining the site and/or staying here. I've got my issues with certain users as well. That doesn't mean I'm going to start removing those threads or banning those people.

As they exist, I don't think the rules disallow the kind of posts that are being made, and I'd like to be sure that if we choose to expand those rules, we do so carefully.
Wylted:
He is also right about the site being held back because it is being dominated by varying levels of bigotry. Don't get me wrong. People like Roosevelt are also very harmful to the site, but he is just a different flavor of bigot than those on the right here. Also I am not using bigot in a negative way and making a value judgement.

I am saying that when the site is nothing but these extreme positions than there really isn't much to debate. Bigots should be welcome here, but once they reach above 20% of the site it kind of ruins the experience.


People like Roosevelt and TWS should never be welcome on the site but with a more mature membership their threads would be ignored and they would just leave anyway.
Before we get down to MEEPs or however we're going to do this, I think this post warrants an immediate ban: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/8938-floyd-and-the-fatal-effects-of-fentanyl-when-mixed-with-other-illegal-substances?page=2&post_number=59 We can decide on if we'll let him back or whatever, but that post is vile. Dunno how he got away with that in the first place. 
badger
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Also I kinda think I am now president of Dart lol. Someone hook me up with some channels or something. 
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@badger
Congrats on the promotion, President Bootlicker!
Must be painful to have no more superiors or higher-ups to suck up to and worship.

Before we get down to MEEPs or however we're going to do this, I think this post warrants an immediate ban: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/8938-floyd-and-the-fatal-effects-of-fentanyl-when-mixed-with-other-illegal-substances?page=2&post_number=59 We can decide on if we'll let him back or whatever, but that post is vile. Dunno how he got away with that in the first place. 
Your first move in Office is to declare an executive order for an immediate ban based on a drama that already played out a few months ago?

Do you have any actual priorities or plans for DART or is it to remove every person for making an ignorant post?



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@rbelivb
sdavio do throw in your opinion here dude. Or in here: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/9432-dart-growth-and-userbase

Always great to see you around. 
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https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/8607-dart-should-stop-banning-people?page=1

I'm down to swap out TWS and swap back in Poly if that suits. 

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@badger
The idea of free speech is derived from the context of an open space, the "market" or public square. The people inside can express themselves freely because of a set of shared expectations which organise them into a community. The public shares a space and speaks freely because of the boundary which separates them and unifies them in distinction to others. The freedom of press likewise, is an accompaniment of industrialization. Free speech, is nostalgia for the industrial age, for a public space rigorously governed by self-consistent laws. It is essentially the same as the demands for free healthcare, UBI, and anything else supplied as a public service or legal guarantee. They are the services of a centralised community, which cannot exist digitally. On the internet, everything connects to everything else. There is no community or open space that would provide the platform for free speech. Therefore the claims of the right to demand freedom of speech are entirely oppositional and performative. Even if anyone had freedom of speech, they would have nothing to say.
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@rbelivb
Ok but come down off your wise man's perch on the mountain dude lol. I pretty much agree with all of that. Free speech is ownership of one's circumstances and that makes more sense in your open space. But you're a longtime poster here, dude. We came from a DDO full of interesting people. Is that what you're seeing here? 
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@badger
Lol. I agree that the site seems to be full of conservative spam now and generally less interesting. I would usually err on the side of keeping the insane people around, but I can agree to ban whoever TWS is.
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@badger
I do appreciate you putting my quote in there, because I think people miss my message. I don't think the site can recover quite yet. It may just take a few people keeping the site alive until we get a random and sudden surge of members that snow balls. 

Here is a great area for people who want debate to engage with others and bring them here for more formal one on one debates. 
PREZ-HILTON
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Here it is. It's a great community. Literally engage in debate there and if they feel like they beat you, drag them here where somebody can actually score each side's arguments. https://discord.gg/moderndaydebate
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I say go out and cross promote and try to crowd out the bad elements of the site with fresh blood. We won't remove the bad elements but we can crowd them out
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@whiteflame
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@PREZ-HILTON
I'd like to see some of our top debaters on MDD, if they're not there already.
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I won't do anything I am about to disappear for 6-12 months but you know. If you guys cross promote so I have something good to come back to that would be nice
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@Savant
I go there. I talked to a mod about debateart, but I am not looking to spam. My name there is Wylted and i jump in and debate a little bit here and there
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@PREZ-HILTON
First of all this site needs to appear on google search. Argument does not need promotion. People will search it out. I mean I don't know what's involved in that, but edeb8 comes up, so. But then we do also need to clean up our act here or we're only getting more of the same or people like Roose who've got the fire to meet it. DDO was a mellow place, we had fun with ideas. This place is an intellectual wasteland by comparison, made so by TWS, Kaitlyn and company. 
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I polled that too ages ago and pretty sure 99% of users that found DDO googled "online debating". 
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@badger
First step is the domain name. Everyone thinks it's a bunch of people arguing about art right now. I have thought about creating a good name and using a redirect when people go to that name just to help promote it. Namecheap you can get a domain name for like $5.
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I found it through Google also. 
badger
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First step is the domain name.
Doesn't matter what the name is if nobody's ever finding the site to click it.
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Also another place to cross promote with the type of people we are looking for besides modern debate is reddit.com r/intellectualdarkweb

Modern debate leans libertarian, dark web probably leans slightly left but both sites have a wide variety of opinions and more mature users than this site
badger
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There's thousands of obnoxious fucks just like us googling for arguments right now. 
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@badger
Well why is the site not being listed. It pumps out a lot of content and so, I don't understand how Google rankings work. I know it's sad edeb8 is dead and ranks higher
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I have Larz email address. I think he links it on edeb8?maybe I can ask him why his dead site is ranked
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@badger
@PREZ-HILTON
We could all pitch in to buy search ads. Maybe give credits to people who pay for ads?
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Mike doesn't have server costs fully covered. I would increase my monthly donations to him before I bought ads TBH. 
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@PREZ-HILTON
More users means more donations.
badger
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Let's ban this idiot before we advertise. Seriously. 
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This place is an intellectual wasteland by comparison, made so by TWS, Kaitlyn and company. 
You're not in a place to decide that at all. You're the one who advocates for violence against speech you don't like. You're the one who uses braindead shitlib terms like 'transphobia' or 'bigot'. You're the one who creates intellectually worthless threads like 'I bought a guitar and I am in love' I bought a guitar and I am in love (debateart.com) 

You can disagree with my political views, that's fine. But try finding someone else who's going to attempt to intellectually and seriously defend race realism, hereditary monarchies (over democracy), antinatalism, trans/post-humanism, White nationalism etc.

You're not at all interested in actually helping the site. This push of yours is a smokescreen for your real intention: to get people banned you don't like.


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I don't think Thett is a white nationalist, but if you look at their posts than you see they do a better job of moving that Overton window than you do. 


badger
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And thett would find greater engagement with his threads if we didn't have these detestable fucks buzzing around them too.