Debate with Nyxified over transgender identity

Author: Public-Choice

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#61
Sir.Lancelot
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@Nyxified
This discussion may perpetuate for some time and you may find yourself hashing it out with people in the forums who aren't even involved in the actual debate itself or that you don't want involved which could be a bad thing because you didn't show up here to debate them, so doing so will spoil what arguments you're going to use.

Public-Choice has approved majority of the judges with some speculation of who else he wants on.
You've expressed some disapproval for some of the judges, so if you create the challenge first, you'll have more control over who you want on the Voting Council and can avoid wasting time arguing with people whose opinions don't matter all that much.

That said, here are the possible judge arrangements you can go with. Public is likely to agree with any of them, but he can raise objections if he disapproves with any.

  1. Most objective. Me, Slainte, Savant, whiteflame, *WeaverofFate.
  2. Second most objective. Me, Slainte, Savant, Bones, oromagi.
  3. Most even (Biases, non-biases.) Bella3sp/oromagi, YouFoundIxam, Barney, TWS.
Ignore anyone derailing their thread with their biases against transgender ideology.

I edited this to include WeaverofFate to arrangement #1.
Weaver and whiteflame are the site's two best objective voters. I can personally vouch for Weaver especially. Everyone already knows who whiteflame is.



#62
RationalMadman
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@Nyxified
Not all trans people have dysphoria. That isn't, like, an opinion or a lie I'm telling you. That's... literally just a fact?
Can you give proof of this please?
#63
Bella3sp
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@RationalMadman
I know this is a conversation between you and them, however, not all trans people feel that discomfort or emotional pain in themselves. 
They don't even need to change their original bodies to express they are transgender.

Gender dysphoria does not apply to all transgender people, that is the above and beyond. 
#64
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@Bella3sp
Dysphoria is an acquired state of mind usually relative to social circumstances and social pressure.

Though that is not to say that inherent physiology is not a contributory factor.

And a word compounded with gender because it rolls of the tongue well.


So is gender dysphoria environmental, evolutionary or just a trend.

Well I could  suggest arguments from all three.

But with no definitive facts.


Therefore.........Possibly an evolutionary trend, perhaps affected by environmental contamination/change, would be a basic balanced hypothesis.


I would also suggest that in this instance, to be certain is to be biased towards something one cannot be certain of.....Sort of religious fervour I suppose.




Topic's author
#65
Public-Choice
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@Nyxified
official sources and science itself are wrong
Nah. I didn't do that. I proved that your "science" was the lowest of the lowest form of evidence, and, compared to randomized controlled trials, you have no real evidence to assert transgender surgeries even work to treat gender dysphoria. I never argued "science itself" is wrong. That would be kind of topsy-turvy considering I based my case on science itself.

I also pointed out, with meticulous sourcing, that the fact checkers are paid by big pharma to push transgender ideology, making them compromised on this subject. Of course someone who is paid to promote transgender surgeries will say everyone who disagrees with them is wrong.

What is an "official source" anyways? The fact you arbitrarily apply weight to people who are paid handsomely to bias themselves in favor of the people lining their pockets shows your, not my, lack of following an argument and cogently engaging with the facts. To me, an official source on transgenderism is a randomized controlled trial published in a peer reviewed journal by scientists who did not have their paper ghostwritten and editors who were not paid to push the article through and also have no financial complications for their research, or a source that cites such trials and other higher-level evidence, like ACOP.

Media Bias Fact Check is not an "official source." It is mainly run by a single liberal, anti-naturopathy, anti-intelligent-design, journalist who has an ace to grind against everyone who disagrees with him. Just Facts, a public policy think tank known for their meticulous collection of research on a wide range of public policy areas, already systematically DEMOLISHED him when he made false claims about them (and gun control...).


Now, as to the 55+ studies. They are cited in this policy stance. I applogize. I thought I linked to it earlier and I did not:
#66
ADreamOfLiberty
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I just don't understand why you people go through the ritual. You clearly want to debate so bad you're doing it in the forum about the formal debate.

You can't agree on who is objective. You know the votes are don't determine the truth.

Obviously neither will consider it settled just because some people vote a certain way.

If it's enforced character limits that are so important can't you just have zero invited judges?
Topic's author
#67
Public-Choice
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@ADreamOfLiberty
I feel it just kinda devolved into it, tbh. I make these forum posts so that everyone can see the reasoning and the agreements/disagreements between the two debaters. But I am thinking of ending this practice because they tend to be spammed with people who qant to debate in the forums.
Topic's author
#68
Public-Choice
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@Nyxified
I apologize for coming across as snarky. Please don't let it cloud your reading of the facts and research I cited.

I assure you I am trying to be in good faith here. I honestly believe transgender surgery is a health hazard, experimental, and even deadly in some cases.

But I do not hate transgenders. Nor do I want to ban them from existence through regulations and such.

I just honestly believe it stems from gender dysphoria rather than a case of mistaken identity.

I don't know your story, and I'm not going to pretend I do, but a vast amount of transgenders were abused/severely bullied (many were also sexually abused). It seems there's a correlation between this abuse and questioning of their gender. Granted, I cited a survey here, but it's been corroborated by the therapy sessions of many psychologists who engage in ralk therapy.

I'm not saying this to assume you were seuxally assaulted or abused, but just to say this tends to be the case. Trauma is not easy, and people respond to it in a bunch of different ways, some becoming transgender or dysphoric, and other's becoming attracted to the same or opposite sex. Others devlop sexual fetishes, etc.
#69
RationalMadman
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@Bella3sp
I know this is a conversation between you and them, however, not all trans people feel that discomfort or emotional pain in themselves. 
They don't even need to change their original bodies to express they are transgender.

Gender dysphoria does not apply to all transgender people, that is the above and beyond. 
Wrong. Not all who are gender dysphoric need the operation or hormones but all transgenders are gender dysphoric. It is the other way around.

There are gender dysphoric who are pretty okay with their original gender but just strongly prefer they/them or even are very peculiar and prefer 'it' or ze/zir or other pronouns.
#70
Bella3sp
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@RationalMadman
Wrong.

Being transgender (just trans) is not a medical condition, gender dysphoria is.

Gender dysphoria was once Gender Identity Disorder. It was changed for the obvious reasons; dysphoria relates to distress and not how you identify.
Being transgender does not mean you have gender dysphoria.
#71
Bella3sp
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@RationalMadman
Gender dysphoria is a strong sense of feeling. 

Transgender people don't need to have a strong sense of those particular thoughts/feelings in order to be transgender. 
#72
RationalMadman
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@Bella3sp
Yes. Yes they do.
#73
RationalMadman
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@Bella3sp
Being transgender (just trans) is not a medical condition, gender dysphoria is.
All transgenders are gender dysphoric in the first place. You are just playing with words.

Gender dysphoria was once Gender Identity Disorder. It was changed for the obvious reasons; dysphoria relates to distress and not how you identify.
Gender dysphoria can be severe (full trans) or milder. Keep trying to educate me though.

The only thing that defines it is incongruence with one's biological sex and the gender they consistently identify as (so even inconsistency meaning sometimes being cisgender, sometimes nonbinary, sometimes trans comes under gender dysphoria).

Being transgender does not mean you have gender dysphoria.
Yes it concretely does but Gender Dysphoria doesn't always mean that you transition from MtF or FtM due to the they/them region between genders, as well as the fact that some with it switch 'in and out' depending on the week or sometimes day.

Keep trying.
#74
Best.Korea
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@Bella3sp
Being transgender does not mean you have gender dysphoria.
True. I sometimes wish I was a girl, but I dont hate my current gender or feel bad about it.

Topic's author
#75
Public-Choice
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@Bella3sp
Being transgender does not mean you have gender dysphoria.
From the DSM-5 for gender dysphoria:

A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and natal gender of at least 6 months in duration.

It includes the following:
A.      A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or in young adolescents, the anticipated secondary sex characteristics)
B.      A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics)
C.      A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender
D.      A strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s designated gender)
E.      A strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s designated gender)
F.      A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s designated gender)
Transgenderism is definitely gender dysphoria. It's literally a part of the diagnosis. Gender dysphoria covers everyone who believes they are not the biological sex they were born as, as per the DSM-5.
#76
Nyxified
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@RationalMadman

"Not all transgender people suffer from gender dysphoria and that distinction is important to keep in mind."

#77
Nyxified
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@Public-Choice
I thank you for keeping it civil. I try to avoid being condescending or rude (though that can be hard when on a website literally dedicated to arguing), and I try to recognize when I have been unduly uncivil and apologize, so I'm glad you seem to do so as well. I also apologize if I've been rude.

However, if you truly believe that many fact-checkers are being systematically bribed to push certain ideologies, I have no desire to continue this discussion. We are already at the point of conspiratorial beliefs. I have no problem believing that certain people and organizations have biases or make mistakes or occasionally dismiss certain things without giving them due consideration, but that's not what we're talking about here.

#78
Nyxified
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@whiteflame
@Public-Choice
@Sir.Lancelot
@WeaverofFate
I've never been particularly concerned when it comes to revealing my arguments before the debate (assuming you mean that doing so is a disadvantage for me). If my arguments cannot stand up to scrutiny even when my opponent has all the time in the world to prepare against exactly what I will say before I've even presented it, then I didn't deserve to win anyways. If my position is truly logically-sound, it will be able to weather any disadvantage.

I have, for the most part, expressed (or intended to express) apathy when it comes to the judges selected. I have, however, been unwilling to have certain judges because I do not trust them to be reliable and unbiased, but I'm not particularly stingy.

Out of courtesy, I do not want to include people who haven't already expressed interest. Here's the list of people who have expressed interest who aren't hopelessly unobjective/unbiased:
  1. Sir.Lancelot
  2. Savant
  3. Slainte
This is the list that was initially proposed anyways.

I have tagged whiteflame and Weaver. If either of them are interested, they can join the list (I doubt public-choice would disagree with their objectivity, but we don't need extra judges anyways, so one or both of them can be excluded from the list if it's really a problem), but truthfully it is fine the way it is. I do not wish to spend much time playing "If you add this judge then I need to add this judge to keep it balanced."

I will let public-choice make the debate as they created this thread, so it feels more correct to me to do it that way (there's no deeper reasoning to this, I just feel like it makes more sense).
#79
whiteflame
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@Nyxified
@Public-Choice
I’m happy to join as a judge.
#80
RationalMadman
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@Nyxified
Your source only makes an appeal to authority, it doesn't justify it being right. It is wrong. The DCM waffling has an internal contradiction.

To be transgender is inextricably linked to having dysphoria with one's gender. There is no other reason to be transgender, excluding rare 0.02% intersex types of people.
#81
Nyxified
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@RationalMadman
I agree. The source is just an appeal to authority. I'm not trying to scientifically prove that non-dysphoric trans people exist because they literally do exist. I'm one of them. Not all trans people are unhappy that they present as the gender they were born as. Some trans people just feel happier presenting as a gender other than that which they were born as. That is the difference between gender dysphoria and gender euphoria.

Trying to argue that non-dysphoric trans people just ~don't exist~ is certainly an interesting argument. I don't know what you expect me to say.
#82
Nyxified
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@whiteflame
@Public-Choice
Excellent!
#83
RationalMadman
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@Nyxified
All non-gender-dysphorc people are NOT transgender.

All transgender people ARE gender dysphoric.

Within gender dysphoria, not all have or want to transition, some endure it, some remain undiagnosed and suffer. Some would seek non-affirming therapy if such didn't lose therapy licences via cancel culture.
#84
RationalMadman
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@Nyxified
Debate me now on whether the idea anyone can and should be transgender is in its raw theoretical framework closer to Conservative transphobia or to left wing queer liberalism.


Challenge me right now.

Topic's author
#85
Public-Choice
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@whiteflame
@Nyxified
@Sir.Lancelot
So I've lost track of the original purpose of this debate and I have no idea who is judging it anymore.

I won't name any names (*cough* RationalMadman, zedvictor, bella3sp *cough*) but this thread kinda got derailed hard.
#86
Sir.Lancelot
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@Nyxified
@Public-Choice
Here's the default choice.: Me, Savant, Slainte, and whiteflame.
And that's it.

This is the only objective version of a debate you're gonna get.

Create the challenge whenever you feel like it.
Or have Nyxified create it.

Please.
We don't need any more idiots with low IQ showing up and contaminating the thread with their transparent transphobia.

This is not RM and Nyxified's debate.
This is Public's debate with Nyx.

Can we get this back on track?
#87
RationalMadman
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@Barney
@whiteflame
@oromagi
@Sir.Lancelot
This is a thread, not a debate and your post was the most toxic and useless one to the thread thus far.

You have no say on me participating here nor some special privilege go insult me without getting insulted back, you sanctimonious sack of medium IQ excrement, Lancy boy.

Wanna play with toxicity and ruin the thread? Let's sling mud. If mods got an issue, it is about time they put you in your place and tell you to stop running around insulting me in the first place.
#88
RationalMadman
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@Public-Choice
This is not your safe space, we can discuss the thread as we wish. Make your debate and stick to it or take it to the PMs.

Or set a rule only Nyxified can post.
#89
Sir.Lancelot
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You have no say on me participating here nor some special privilege go insult me without getting insulted back, you sanctimonious sack of medium IQ excrement, Lancy boy.

Wanna play with toxicity and ruin the thread? Let's sling mud. If mods got an issue, it is about time they put you in your place and tell you to stop running around insulting me in the first place.
Very sophisticated use of the English Language, Little Rodent. 

Let’s settle this Shakespearean Style.
#90
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@Barney
@whiteflame
Rational is derailing the thread and threatened me openly. 
Can you tell him to stop bullying me and Public? He’s hurting my feelings. 😢

He’s gaslighting and harassing me!