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@FLRW
Utterly ridiculous
Choice is clearly a factor in determining sexuality
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@SkepticalOne
I'm not sure to what you're referring, but I can't help but think you've overlooked bi-sexuality and the spectrum of sexuality.
ALL are choices if and when acted upon.
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@Vegasgiants
If a person says they changed their sexuality by choice who are you to tell them they are wrong?
If someone doesn't say they changed their sexuality by choice, then who are you to tell them they are wrong? I shift the burden back to you.
Again, if you think sexuality is made by choice, tell me when you actively chose your sexuality. If you're being honest, you can't because it never happened.
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@TWS1405_2
ALL are choices if and when acted upon.
Thats clear as mud. Choosing to act according to one's sexual preferences and choosing sexuality are not the same thing.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
No, the disagreement is about when it is appropriate to use proxies like that....They are part of a family of secondary (proxy) inductive pseudo-arguments that are fallacies in the context of debate....Now you may feel this forum qualifies as a situation described by "limited information in time critical situation" but you're on a debate site so it doesn't.
We're in the forum section, this is not a formal debate. If my argument was "X is true because WebMD says so", that would absolutely be a fallacy.
That is not nor has that ever been my argument.
Your entire critique is once again, a complete strawman.
What I am presenting is as an inductive argument to strengthen the position that sexuality is not a choice. Just how much it strengthens the argument is in the eye of the beholder. The point of putting it out there is to see where the OP goes with it and take it from there. That's how productive rational conversation works. We take it one step at a time to see where we end up and/or differ.
If the OP says WebMD is untrustworthy, we can either talk about why he believes that or move on from the point altogether. If he wants to dive into scientific studies, we can do that as well. But either way, putting out a piece of information to advance a conversation is not a fallacy.
It's like hearsay, if you have time to get to the original authority you don't multiply error by using a proxy.
It's not about time, it's about how much effort should be put into any given discission. In a formal debate you are expected and ultimately judged on putting out complete, valid and verified information. This is not a formal debate. I have also never interacted with the OP before, so I don't know what he'll say or how seriously to take him.
Moreover, there is always going to be more information out there, we live in the information age. If the idea is that more information = 'more research is needed to make an assertion', we would never communicate, we would just sit here researching until we are qualified experts ourselves.
That's an absurd standard just to have a conversation and share viewpoints.
Priests study for a lifetime, in fact Occam was clergy I believe. Is it the simpler explanation that all these people who study and debate constantly are wrong about god?
Priests are not studying God, they are studying a book that claims there is a God.
If the question is about what the bible says, a priest is a valid proxy.
If the question is about whether God exists, that's a question best addressed by science. Priests do not conduct scientific experimentation, so they are not valid proxy's for that question.
It's always the simpler choice for those content in ignorance to trust. You do not belong here with that attitude.
That's not the attitude I've expressed anywhere on this site. Learn to read.
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@Vegasgiants
No scientific agency says homosexuality is not a choice. In fact t none will say we know what determines sexuality. Sexuality is not a box checked at birth. Sexuality fir many changes throughout their lifetimeClearly choice is likely a element in determining Sexuality
Are you saying you had to choose your orientation?
If it could have gone either way, how did you choose?
Are you still attracted to the one you didn't choose?
If you have a partner, do they know you had to choose, and that you are attracted to the other gender too?
I'm sincerely curious about what you partner thinks about the situation.
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@Double_R
Experts agree that sexual orientation isn’t a choice and can’t be changed. Some people who are homosexual or bisexual may hide their sexual orientation to avoid prejudice from others or shame they may have been taught to feel about their sexuality
The argument of the "gay gene" has been repeatedly debunked by scientific studies and organizations:
WebMD is spreading disinformation. There is absolutely zero evidence that a person's genes cause them to be gay.
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@Sidewalker
Yes I chose. Around age 11. And I kept that choice
But some people choose and then later chose differently
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@SkepticalOne
That's fine with me. I don't care if someone says they are a unicorn
Fine with me
Around age 11
Wow! You're telling me that I choose to feel arousal around men? I choose to feel that sexual attraction?
I can just change my sexual attraction into liking females? Like, that feeling of my sexual attraction and orientation to men will just disappear?
Thanks for telling, I'll just change how my body consciously and unconsciously reacts! This was sooo helpful!
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@Public-Choice
The concept of a single “gay gene” may be debunked, but Dr. Eric Vilain, director of the Center for Genetic Medicine Research at Children’s National Health System, said the evidence still supports a biological connection to sexuality in three ways.
1) Fraternal birth order. Men with older brothers are more likely to be homosexual, a finding from research that has been known and replicated for more than 20 years.
2) Handedness. There is a strong correlation between same sex sexual orientation and being something other than right-handed — so left-handed or ambidextrous — in both men and women. “It’s been proven in many studies and many cultures,” Vilain said.
3) Familiality. There is a subset of gay individuals who have more than one relative in their family that is also gay. For example, the new study found 30 percent of its subjects who reported same-sex behavior had a close relative who was also gay. This result speaks to the heritability of gayness, while also showing — much like the other results — that genetics can’t explain everything.
1) Fraternal birth order. Men with older brothers are more likely to be homosexual, a finding from research that has been known and replicated for more than 20 years.
2) Handedness. There is a strong correlation between same sex sexual orientation and being something other than right-handed — so left-handed or ambidextrous — in both men and women. “It’s been proven in many studies and many cultures,” Vilain said.
3) Familiality. There is a subset of gay individuals who have more than one relative in their family that is also gay. For example, the new study found 30 percent of its subjects who reported same-sex behavior had a close relative who was also gay. This result speaks to the heritability of gayness, while also showing — much like the other results — that genetics can’t explain everything.
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@Bella3sp
Yes you chose it. Lots of others choose it too and then change their mind.
You're welcome
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@FLRW
Correlation is not causation
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@Vegasgiants
Yep! My body just completely started feeling a new attraction to females!
I totally don't still feel an attraction to males, in the back, but instead I am forcing myself to feel attraction to females. Though is that really attraction if I don't feel anything? I'm just forcing myself? I guess it doesn't matter, because I can choose!
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@Bella3sp
What do you say to a man that says they were gay but now are straight?
Can you speak for him?
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@Vegasgiants
A man that was gay, and now straight. Hm... I think there is a sexual attraction for that, but I personally believe the following:
- Either the man has found out, he doesn't actually like males, but instead females this entire time (aka lying to yourself)
- Bisexual tendencies unknown
- Sexual "crisis"
- Abrosexuality/Sexual Fluidity
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@Bella3sp
I see. You get to decide for him. He doesn't get to decide for himself
Uh........no
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@Vegasgiants
I don't decide for him, it's his body, his conscious and unconscious sexual arousal and attraction, I just listed possibilites.
Where did I decide for him?
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@Bella3sp
He says it's a choice.
You're saying no it's not
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@Vegasgiants
Just because I say it's not quite a choice, doesn't mean I decide for him.
It's his body that practically decides for him.
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@Bella3sp
Well I don't think you get to tell him what is going on here
You have an opinion.....not a fact
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@SkepticalOne
ALL are choices if and when acted upon.Thats clear as mud. Choosing to act according to one's sexual preferences and choosing sexuality are not the same thing.
Yes they are. They are NOT mutually exclusive.
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@Vegasgiants
Back yourself up then, where is sexual orientation a choice?
Answer me this, if that gay man "chooses" that he is straight now, why? Why does he "choose" he is straight? Because his sexual attraction changed, not by choice, but because his body itself changed sexual attraction overtime. He doesn't choose to feel that attraction to females for example, but rather chooses he identifies as straight. See?
That seems to be the most confusing for most people.
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@Bella3sp
It's semantics. I grew up hating broccoli and now love it. Tastes and attractions can change due to new experiences
My eye color never changes.....because I was born that way
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@Bella3sp
Yep! My body just completely started feeling a new attraction to females!
Your body reacts to what the kind perceived through visual, smell and perhaps touch (if you allow it). The body just doesn't “do it” all on its own. It reacts to external stimuli via how the mind perceives it. It’s in the mind. It’s a choice.
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@Vegasgiants
That is sexual fluidity, sexual orientation may change over time, yes. You're right.
But you don't choose it. Just like you said, " I grew up hating broccoli and now love it." That's not a choice. It just happens over time, but not by choice. You just proved it yourself.
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@Bella3sp
Well that is your opinion.
There is no science to back your opinion
There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation.
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@TWS1405_2
"Your body reacts to what the kind perceived through visual, smell and perhaps touch (if you allow it)"
So, by everyday elements, that's how my sexual attraction can change? Alright, let's go by that. But when my body goes through those elements, that sexual attraction may or may not change. Do I choose to make it change? No. It changes on its own. I don't have a say, to be like, "hey, because of this can you just start making me feel attraction to females?"
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@Vegasgiants
You cannot prove it either.
But it isn't about proving if people have a "gay gene" or what not. This is about proving that sexual orientation is not a choice, disregarding that. So, by not responding to exactly what I was saying last comment, is it because you cannot?
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@Bella3sp
But then nothing is a choice. Your brain and body reacts to everything and it chooses for you
That's nonsense