(IFF) Free-Will is True (THEN) what?

Author: 3RU7AL

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Shila
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if determinism holds then whether we blame or punish wrobg-doers is iteself pre-determined, as is the outcome of this debate.  'Que Sera Sera'.

Sorry i'm not very motiated by the 'free will' topic anymore. I'm faking it!
My primary aim is to expose the underlying mechanisms that inform "how we should act".

It appears that most of the identifiable "winners" of recorded history were primarily motivated by unadulterated self-interest (charismatic sociopaths).

The law in particular seems to be a thinly veiled cudgel used to intimidate and destroy the challengers of those privileged to wield it.

When I was young I thought the law was an unfeeling machine that grinds up anyone who crosses its path regardless of individual talent, wealth, or power.

Now I only wish that were true.

Ironically, the concepts of "objectivity" and "freewill" make us complacent slaves. 
Have you considered the alternatives to "objectivity" and "freewill" that makes us complacent slaves?

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Have you considered the alternatives to "objectivity" and "freewill" that makes us complacent slaves?
you can't be a slave to any human if your trajectory begins with the origin of all things
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Have you considered the alternatives to "objectivity" and "freewill" that makes us complacent slaves?
you can't be a slave to any human if your trajectory begins with the origin of all things
What if the trajectory of origin of all things began with slavery.
Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

Genesis 3:17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ “Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life.
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not even god has free-will
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I've always found the free will conversation pointless. If we have it then it's settled, we can all move on. If we don't have it then not only does that change nothing, but it means that what we're actually talking about is something that no human being has ever experienced so we have no basis to point to it because we have no recognition of what we're even pointing to.
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I've always found the free will conversation pointless. If we have it then it's settled, we can all move on. If we don't have it then not only does that change nothing, but it means that what we're actually talking about is something that no human being has ever experienced so we have no basis to point to it because we have no recognition of what we're even pointing to.
this topic is fundamental

because it is the core of nearly all human suffering

if you deny causality, then free-will doesn't make any sense, because without causality, your actions don't necessarily lead to specific consequences

if you embrace causality, then free-will doesn't make any sense, because with causality, your actions are caused by previous events

and if you mix the two, sometimes causality and sometimes not causality, then you can never be sure which events are caused and which are uncaused

if you decide a specific event is uncaused, then free-will cannot apply, because you cannot cause (with your free-will) an uncaused event

if you decide a specific event is caused, then free-will cannot apply, because you cannot (with your free-will) cause all of the contributing causes that lead to any caused event

sure, people "experience" free-will, but only in the way they "experience" "god's love"

you can "feel" it, but that doesn't mean it is anything more than a mere emotion
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I've always found the free will conversation pointless. If we have it then it's settled, we can all move on. If we don't have it then not only does that change nothing, but it means that what we're actually talking about is something that no human being has ever experienced so we have no basis to point to it because we have no recognition of what we're even pointing to.
this topic is fundamental

because it is the core of nearly all human suffering

if you deny causality, then free-will doesn't make any sense, because without causality, your actions don't necessarily lead to specific consequences

if you embrace causality, then free-will doesn't make any sense, because with causality, your actions are caused by previous events

and if you mix the two, sometimes causality and sometimes not causality, then you can never be sure which events are caused and which are uncaused

if you decide a specific event is uncaused, then free-will cannot apply, because you cannot cause (with your free-will) an uncaused event

if you decide a specific event is caused, then free-will cannot apply, because you cannot (with your free-will) cause all of the contributing causes that lead to any caused event

sure, people "experience" free-will, but only in the way they "experience" "god's love"

you can "feel" it, but that doesn't mean it is anything more than a mere emotion
Your arguments are more about causality than free will.

freewill
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

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@Shila
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
the power of acting without the constraint of [CAUSALITY] necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion [FREE FROM ALL INFLUENCE].
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I thought clicking into this topic that it would be a discussion of the moral implications of free will, given that it existed. Glad to see that not only did someone bring the subject around to it, but they hold the same stance as me.
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@3RU7AL
this topic is fundamental

because it is the core of nearly all human suffering

if you deny causality, then free-will doesn't make any sense, because without causality, your actions don't necessarily lead to specific consequences

if you embrace causality, then free-will doesn't make any sense, because with causality, your actions are caused by previous events

and if you mix the two, sometimes causality and sometimes not causality, then you can never be sure which events are caused and which are uncaused

if you decide a specific event is uncaused, then free-will cannot apply, because you cannot cause (with your free-will) an uncaused event

if you decide a specific event is caused, then free-will cannot apply, because you cannot (with your free-will) cause all of the contributing causes that lead to any caused event
So no matter which way you view it, it doesn't make sense and can't apply.

So why is this conversation fundamental again?
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If free will exists we have control to make of ourselves what we want of ourselves. 
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--> @Shila
the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
the power of acting without the constraint of [CAUSALITY] necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion [FREE FROM ALL INFLUENCE].
Causality is not fate or necessity.
Causality is simply cause and effect.

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So why is this conversation fundamental again?
the pervasive concepts of "blame" and "guilt" and "punishment" are based on this fundamentally flawed premise
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Causality is not fate or necessity.
Causality is simply cause and effect.
the idea of fate does not exist without cause-and-effect

cause-and-effect makes every event not only inevitable but also necessary
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If free will exists we have control to make of ourselves what we want of ourselves. 
please explain how each one of us can become a millionaire
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If everyone had free will, it stands to reason that others' wills would occasionally clash with yours. Meaning, you cannot always have what you want if others also want or don't want you to have it. That doesn't mean you don't have free will or choice; your choices just necessarily become limited based on others' choices, we then necessarily collectively share the same will. As a pantheist, this isn't a problem for me. An atheist, maybe so. 
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just necessarily become limited
and therefore "not-free"

also, how do you determine who has "more" "free-will" and who has "less" "free-will" ?
Ehyeh
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I think there are a million factors that go into how much free will someone has, such as education and wealth. Once more, though, free will isn't an issue for me if I believe we all share the same will. The questions you're posing against me are more issues for non-pantheists. In my pantheist worldview, when you limit someone else's ability, all you really do is limit your own. We all then, within my worldview, possess a responsibility to aid one another if someone is disadvantaged by someone's advantage. I believe the world is such a horrible place for 80% of the worlds population precisely because of this sense of separation from one another. We do not foster love nor true comfort and community within one another. Everyone is a threat. I don't think we need to think in black and white terms in regards to free will, we can have free will to act in some circumstances, yet our free can be snuffed by a greater collective free will of others. 
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I believe the world is such a horrible place for 80% of the worlds population precisely because of this sense of separation from one another.
100% THIS
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I don't think we need to think in black and white terms in regards to free will, we can have free will to act in some circumstances,
i hesitate to make broad statements here, but some seem to be suggesting that nobody is arguing that a human decision is free from all previous influences. i think this is a fair statement. the best attempts at explaining free-will seem to suggest that there is some kind of influence-gap. that is to say, it has been suggested that a human decision is influenced up to some unknown point less than 100% and then there is some i-gap of unspecified quantity and free-will lives there spreading magic fairy dust, however small or improbable that i-gap might be. i have never heard anyone propose a way to measure this i-gap in order to perhaps somehow gauge how much free-will someone might have, or to figure out if children have it, and if not, when do they get it? the i-gap sounds to me more like an ignorance-of-influence gap (this would also seem like the compatibilist's opinion). if this is the case we should be able to dial up free-will by dialing up ignorance.

the main problems i see with this proposal are as follows:

1) there is no way to measure the influence-gap. it is in all likelihood merely a knowledge-of-influence-gap or lack-of-precision-gap.

2) even if the influence-gap is considered to be a real thing, wouldn't that gap simply increase the value of the other influences? how could the influence gap possibly be considered an influence? it's a gap that is by definition non-influential.

3) let's consider based on at least a small shred of logic, what could be in that pesky i-gap that might actually be an influence. well, whatever is in that i-gap can't be influenced since it is inside something defined as an influence-gap. so maybe there's an uninfluenced-influence in that i-gap; we could call it something mysterious like, an uncaused-cause, or maybe a first-cause, or better yet ex-nihilo. could that uncaused-cause be influenced or originated by anything at all? no, of course not because it's in the i-gap and it is defined as being uncaused. so could a human take credit for a decision or action that emerged from the i-gap? how could they possibly take credit or be responsible for something they had no conceivable control over? anything emerging from the i-gap would be indistinguishable from a random event. and randomness is incompatible with choice.

4) but what if it's the essence of "me" that is in the i-gap. are you kidding me?! i don't care if it's your grandmother, your dead child, or your ever lovin' god. if you put them in the i-gap they are at-best indistinguishable from random noise and at worst non-existent.

5) what if the gap is not an influence-gap but instead a black box? if the gap is not an influence-gap, there is no place for mr. free-will to spread his magic fairy dust because the gap instantly fills with influence and is then no longer properly described as a gap. additionally if the output of the i-gap is non-random, that is to say it emits some identifiable pattern, then whatever is happening in the i-gap must have some way of knowing what the hell is going on outside of the i-gap and this knowledge is definitely influencing its output thereby introducing influence into the i-gap which would then promptly disappear in a cute little puff of logic.

i think it's important to fully comprehend this influence-gap. imagine, if you will, that i am constructing a human being. when the recipe calls for me to add "a dash of free-will" i can't just add any old thing, willy nilly; i have to first construct a proper influence-gap to protect my human from the evil determinism. this would be some container that is impervious to all conceivable influence. i probably have a sound-proof, shock-proof, opaque, air-tight, empathy-proof, magic-proof, momentum-proof, time-proof capsule of some sort just laying around my house, i'll just set that to the side for now. ok, adding an empty box to the mix isn't going to do anything of course so we have to put something in it. since whatever is in this i-gap is supposed to advise me on important moral decisions my selection is of critical importance. well, the most intelligent and moral person i know of is my friend george, so since i don't seem to have a better option, i throw george in the i-capsule and seal him in tight. now days, weeks, and months have gone by and i've pretty much forgotten about george until one afternoon i am confronted with an intractable dilemma. i am faced with a decision with staggeringly profound moral implications and i must make a decision immediately. what do i do? well this sounds like a case for the magnificent george! so i locate my everything-proof capsule on which i have scrawled the descriptive term "i-gap" with my handy wax pencil, and i ask my question. i exhaustively explain all of the known factors leading up to and logical implications of this monumental decision to george, my moral, spiritual and financial advisor, and then i wait for an answer, any answer at all. nothing happens. things are getting desperate, so i beg george to give me an answer, to point me in the right direction. nothing happens. i light some candles and wave a magic wand over the i-gap, but still i can't divine any response from george. i realize there is a problem with the i-gap's design. so i quickly scour my garage for spare parts and retrofit a one way intercom system onto the i-gap so i can hear what george has to say. mind you he still can't hear anything or in any way perceive anything that i have to say, thus preserving the integrity of the influence-gap, but now he can speak directly to me, thus becoming an uncaused-cause. of course george has causes, he was born and raised and had both happy and sad experiences, but i'll just ignore all that for now. george is pretty much an uncaused-cause now that he is housed in the exclusive and luxurious, new and improved i-gap. so i ask george again to answer my plea for guidance. nothing happens. every once in a while george does actually say something but it's usually along the lines of "let me out of this f#cking box you god#amned muth#rf#cking muth#rf#cker!" heh, that george is such a kidder!

obviously george is constrained by the parameters of his confinement and is therefore incapable of offering any advice that would be requested from him.

the same would be true if you put jesus, or krishna, or a unicorn, or any conceivable entity or event in the modified i-gap.

ipso-facto, no free-will.
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@3RU7AL
the pervasive concepts of "blame" and "guilt" and "punishment" are based on this fundamentally flawed premise
It's not a flawed premise. The problem with the free will debate is that we are taking basic concepts such as control and pretending they are not what they are. Again, if we don't have free will then whatever this conversation is about doesn't and has never applied to any human being, ever. So even talking about it is silly because as far as we are able to determine it's a completely made up concept.

Control is not a made up concept, we experience it everyday. Understanding where it comes from does not change that.
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Control is not a made up concept, we experience it everyday. Understanding where it comes from does not change that.
we can certainly FEEL like we are "in control"
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It's not a flawed premise.
please explain the logic of "free-will" ?

at what point are your actions free of previous influence ?
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@Double_R
also,
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Sorry for not replying to your last message, for some reason i must of not noticed it. I think premise 3 needs more justification. 

"3) let's consider based on at least a small shred of logic, what could be in that pesky i-gap that might actually be an influence. well, whatever is in that i-gap can't be influenced since it is inside something defined as an influence-gap. so maybe there's an uninfluenced-influence in that i-gap; we could call it something mysterious like, an uncaused-cause, or maybe a first-cause, or better yet ex-nihilo. could that uncaused-cause be influenced or originated by anything at all? no, of course not because it's in the i-gap and it is defined as being uncaused. so could a human take credit for a decision or action that emerged from the i-gap? how could they possibly take credit or be responsible for something they had no conceivable control over? anything emerging from the i-gap would be indistinguishable from a random event. and randomness is incompatible with choice."
What if the human being is the I-gap, or the uncaused cause? As a pantheist, that's exactly what I believe. I believe the self, or the pure awareness of being, is infinite in nature. You later seem to address this argument by saying it is no different from randomness. How is that so? I get the sense you believe that more so because you still create a distinction between "I" and the I-gap. When you claim and point out something is an uncaused cause, what is it causing except itself? Therefore, the I-gap can cause itself but nothing outside of itself, unless I've missed something in your analysis?
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@Ehyeh
as a pantheist, you might say the "big i" (the whole, the source, the god we are all parts of) is "uncaused" or at least, the "cause" is "unknowable" from our human perspective

but each of us humans has an origin

we were born at a time and a place

and with certain capacities

and subjected to certain experiences

and our "decisions" are manifestations of those collective influences

if we were "uninfluenced" then our actions could not possibly be contextual
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Although I cannot demonstrate it in the way I would like, assuming that everything is the I-gap or God, When things "influence" us outside of ourselves, Or another takes something from them. We, in actuality, take something from ourselves. Do we not? So no one's separate will is in reality being snuffed out except through the illusion of a different will or separation. In this view, it appears to me that it is only ignorance that leads to a lack of free will or the perception of a lack of free will. If God in fact does put these conditions on his own will, such as allowing natural disasters, he doesn't actually lose any free will, as that is the exercise of his own free will, and he experiences said disasters along with and through us consensually. Am I missing something in your analysis?
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here we go,

even god cannot have "free-will"

it is logically impossible

even god cannot "freely choose"

but instead, must inevitably act "according to its nature"
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I hope i haven't missed your reasoning as to why God does not have free will. Can you give me your perspective on why you think he couldn't? I probably wouldn't disagree with you on him only being capable of acting on his nature. I would just argue that his nature is infinite by necessity and therefore he has infinite options within his nature. From this free will is performativity and intellectually preserved. 
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I hope i haven't missed your reasoning as to why God does not have free will. Can you give me your perspective on why you think he couldn't? I probably wouldn't disagree with you on him only being capable of acting on his nature. I would just argue that his nature is infinite by necessity and therefore he has infinite options within his nature. From this free will is performativity and intellectually preserved. 
let's take the example of the typical Omniscient Omnipotent Creator (OOC)

this OOC knows exactly what will happen (IFF) they create something

they also know (IFF) they will create something

so their "choice" is constrained by their knowledge of how it will inevitably evolve

this OOC, for example, would know before they even created the earth

that placing adam and eve in a garden and telling them "not to eat of the tree"

will inevitably end up with them eating from the tree

it's like a chess grandmaster

they are constrained by the rules of the game and by their knowledge of what is the "best move"

they can only make "the best move"

they have no "choice"

i once heard a creation myth, i think it was egyptian

where once the creator god recognized itself, it found itself alone in the cosmic void

and then had a stomach-ache

and threw-up

and what came out, was the universe