Strike a Blow at Tel Aviv!

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10.19.2023 07:20PM

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@HistoryBuff

You push people to the brink...

Hamas pushed their own people to the brink. Since their own people have no way of removing Hamas, it's up to responsible nations to protect the Palestinians from Hamas, even if it means killing the civilian supporters of Hamas who refuse to leave a war zone.

I nominate America, as it has the most experience in "liberations"

#182

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10.21.2023 02:06AM

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@Greyparrot

Hamas pushed their own people to the brink.

hamas didn't build fences and put up machine guns to keep them imprisoned. Israel did that. Hamas didn't blockade them, Israel did that. Hamas isn't building illegal settlements on their land and steal their homes. Israeli is doing that.

it's up to responsible nations to protect the Palestinians from Hamas

I would agree. But 1st we have to protect them from Israel. You know, the one mass murdering them right this minute.

even if it means killing the civilian supporters of Hamas who refuse to leave a war zone.

hmm, so people who want to stay in their home when there is literally nowhere for them to go means you can kill them? That is seriously fucked up.

I nominate America, as it has the most experience in "liberations"

I don't think america is ok with using force on Israel to make them stop killing children.

#183

Dr.Franklin

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Dr.Franklin

10.21.2023 03:14PM

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@Vegasgiants

You seriously contribute nothing to this site

#184

Vegasgiants

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Vegasgiants

10.21.2023 06:41PM

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@Dr.Franklin

I accept your concession

#185

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10.22.2023 01:22AM

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10.22.2023 01:22AM

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@HistoryBuff

want to stay in their home when there is literally nowhere for them to go

That's a contradiction. You cannot have both these things.

#186

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10.23.2023 12:51AM

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@Greyparrot

want to stay in their home when there is literally nowhere for them to go

That's a contradiction. You cannot have both these things.

no.... it isn't. there is nowhere for them to go. They are already in an open air prison and Israel has been striking convoys of people fleeing their airstrikes.

They want to stay in their homes. They also have nowhere to go because a) israel is imprisoning them and B) Israel is killing them when they try to run away.

#187

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10.23.2023 01:30AM

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@HistoryBuff

I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with you here,

Just asking to further my understanding.

But what would you say makes Palestine an "Open Air Prison"?

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10.23.2023 10:03AM

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@HistoryBuff

It's a contradiction because you cannot prefer something if there is no alternative. It's like you saying you prefer to live on Earth instead of some unreachable planet. What the people want is either irrelevant because no choice exists. Or it is relevant and they do have a choice. You can't have both.

Some men want to genetically be a girl, but that's irrelevant because they will never have a female's chromosomes. There is no choice but to be a genetic male.

#189

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10.23.2023 08:18PM

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@Lemming

the short version is:

1)Palestinians in Gaza are not permitted to leave without Israel's permission, and it is very difficult to get permission.

2) Israel has Gaza under a blockade (for like 16 years) restricting access to all sorts of goods from entering Gaza, but particularly damaging are restrictions on water on fuel. Before the latest round of fighting started, 95% of Palestinians in Gaza did not have access to clean drinking water.

Basically, Israel prevents goods or people from entering or leaving gaza resulting in massive suffering and countless deaths, not even counting the ones they bomb or shoot (which is also hundreds per year). So, honestly, a prison probably has better conditions. At least in prison you get shelter, food and water.

#190

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10.23.2023 08:21PM

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@Greyparrot

It's a contradiction because you cannot prefer something if there is no alternative. It's like you saying you prefer to live on Earth instead of some unreachable planet. What the people want is either irrelevant because no choice exists. Or it is relevant and they do have a choice. You can't have both.

lol so we're splitting hairs now are we? Fair enough. They could leave their homes and be bombed while on the road or maybe reach a place with no shelter or food available for them anyway. Starvation and death are technically a place to go, but not one a person should ever suggest as a viable option.

#191

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https://inkstickmedia.com/why-wont-egypt-accept-palestinians/

10.23.2023 08:33PM

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@HistoryBuff

It's not just Israel though, Jordan and Egypt refuse asylum as well because of the chaos Hamas brings.

So you would have to sanction all the countries for not allowing free passage.

#192

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories

10.23.2023 08:35PM

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@HistoryBuff

Well, Gaza 'is part of Palestine, I 'think.

Many nations don't like people entering their country without permission.

I see Gaza also borders Egypt.

Israel occupied Gaza for a time after the Six-Day War of 196?

Not unusual for occupiers to keep a watch on the borders, I think.

. . .

Seeing on how Gaza has 'kept up terrorist attacks, rocket attacks,

I don't see why Israel would just let them just enter without checking who they are.

. . .

"Israel, with the support of Egypt, imposed a land, sea and air blockade of Gaza in 2007 after Hamas took control of the enclave. Because of the blockade, Gaza is still considered occupied by Israel, according to the UN.

Israel says the blockade is necessary for security reasons, keeping Hamas and other militant groups like the Palestinian Islamic Jihad from importing weapons that can be used against Israel. Israeli officials point to Hamas' original charter that calls for the destruction of Israel."
https://www.axios.com/2023/10/21/gaza-strip-israel-hamas-war-demographics

"Hamas, in its official charter, quotes the Prophet Muhammad as saying: “the day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: ‘O Muslim, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.’” This is a particularly cruel Hadith. We imagine the trembling Jew who tries to survive by hiding behind rocks and trees. However, the rocks (the symbol of non-living nature ) and the trees (the symbol of living nature), both want his death. As if the whole universe is eager to kill this sole and trembling Jew."

https://www.isdp.eu/news/global-jihad-islamic-radicalism-challenge-europe/

Some religious textbook excerpts.

"The books were published in 2000. FRONTLINE cannot verify how many Saudi schools have used these textbooks, or how these passages were taught or interpreted by teachers in Saudi Arabia. However, these textbooks are part of the official curriculum for Saudi students and are a fundamental part of their education. Approximately 35% of school studies is devoted to compulsory Saudi religious education."

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/etc/textbooks.html

"The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement was issued on August 18, 1988. The Islamic Resistance Movement, also known as the HAMAS, is an extremist fundamentalist Islamic organization operating in the territories under Israeli control. Its Covenant is a comprehensive manifesto comprised of 36 separate articles, all of which promote the basic HAMAS goal of destroying the State of Israel through Jihad (Islamic Holy War). The following are excerpts of the HAMAS Covenant:"

"1. Calls for the Destruction of Israel
Introduction: Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

https://embassies.gov.il/oslo/AboutIsrael/the-middle-east/Pages/Hamas-Covenant.aspx

. . . .

Sounds a prison made by Hamas, a fair bit, to me.

#193

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10.24.2023 03:17PM

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@Lemming

Well, Gaza 'is part of Palestine, I 'think.

yes. palestine describes both the west bank and gaza.

Seeing on how Gaza has 'kept up terrorist attacks, rocket attacks,
I don't see why Israel would just let them just enter without checking who they are.

we aren't talking about "checking who they are". we are talking about being banned from leaving in almost all cases.

Sounds a prison made by Hamas, a fair bit, to me.

i do not dispute that Hamas certainly played a large role in the situation being what it is. That doesn't justify Israel's actions. If your neighbor is doing things to threaten you, that doesn't justify you in attacking his wife and children.

It also doesn't really take into account that Hamas is, in many ways, a creation of Israel. When you treat people badly enough, people will turn to an extreme solution. Also, Benjamin Netanyahu has actually been sort of supporting hamas for years. Hamas has been very useful for him. It keeps the Palestinian people divided (between the west bank and Gaza) so that there isn't a single Palestinian state, making sure no one can claim to speak for all Palestinians and preventing any unified Palestinian state from existing.

#194

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_freedom_of_movement#:~:text=According%20to%20B%27Tselem%2C%20permanent,those%20who%20carry%20special%20permits.

10.24.2023 03:51PM

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@HistoryBuff

I 'do see years back, a lot of Israel checkpoints within Palestine,

'Does look bad,

'But all the 'wars, occupations happen after, commonly.

America occupied Germany and Japan, (Though we didn't try to settle either).

But then I thought Israel pulled out of Palestine?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

And I'm not saying ooh look proof,

I'm trying to sort the picture, of which I am unfamiliar,

I'm sure I have many of my conceptions wrong.

Yeah, I heard about the airport and seaport getting knocked out,

But again, the 'wars,

At least 'some of that was due to war collateral damage/targeting, contradictory terms I know.

. . .

I have 'heard some members of Israel played both sides of Palestine political parties, and supported Hamas at times,

Though I've not looked into it in depth.

. . .

I vaguely recall hearing about Europe, having a lot of trains and 'large freedom of easy movement between countries.

. .

I admit Palestinians have a harder time being 'able to travel, but I don't think they are 'prohibited quite?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_Palestinian_citizens#:~:text=As%20of%2028%20September%202023,to%20the%20Henley%20Passport%20Index.

#195

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10.24.2023 07:09PM

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@Lemming

But then I thought Israel pulled out of Palestine?

this is taken from that wikipedia page. They still controlled the borders, airspace and waters around gaza, ie keeping anyone from entering or leaving.

"After Israel's withdrawal, the Palestinians were given control over the Gaza Strip, except for the borders, the airspace and the territorial waters."

Yeah, I heard about the airport and seaport getting knocked out,
But again, the 'wars,
At least 'some of that was due to war collateral damage/targeting, contradictory terms I know.

I mean, yes they bomb them too. But that wasn't really my point. My primary point is that even if the airport and seaport are fully operational, Israel doesn't let the Palestinians use them because Israel controls their airspace and territorial waters.

I have 'heard some members of Israel played both sides of Palestine political parties, and supported Hamas at times, Though I've not looked into it in depth.

It's interesting. The current prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, who has served for a total of 16 years (there are some gaps in the middle where he was out of power), is one of the people who pushed to make sure Hamas could exist. But he also publicly rails against them. He keeps them there because they are useful to him, while publicly saying they are terrorists and criminals etc.

I admit Palestinians have a harder time being 'able to travel, but I don't think they are 'prohibited quite?

I believe this only describes Palestinians who live under the control of the Palestinian Authority. Palestinians in the west bank are, palestinians in the Gaza strip are not. In order to leave the gaza strip it is much more onerous. My understanding is that Hamas has to approve it, then the Palestinian Authority has to approve it, then the Israeli government has to approve it. It is very difficult for people to pull this off. So they are effectively trapped in the gaza strip.

#196

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