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@3RU7AL
You are taking the anomaly and applying it to the set. If your standard, being looks, is what determines gender, then"looks" determines perception of gender/sex to OTHERSif someone tells me they are a "woman" then i will call them a "woman"
What if someone who looks asian tells me they're black?
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@3RU7AL
You are taking the anomaly and applying it to the set. If your standard, being looks, is what determines gender, then
- That voids almost ever transgender person from transitioning, as most of them look their sex.
- A person can somehow be a women in their youth and become a man?
What is your definition for a women?
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@Tradesecret
We believe in free will and we believe in determinism.
- Determinism entails that, in a situation in which a person makes a certain decision or performs a certain action, it is impossible that he or she could have made any other decision or performed any other action.
- Free will is the supposed power or capacity of humans to make decisions or perform actions independently of any prior event or state of the universe.
What you hold to is a tautological impossibility. It's a dichotomy to maintain either my will is authored by myself, or a result of past causes.
I accept the fact that we can only know God based on insufficient reasoning. Hence why I am pleased God chose to reveal himself through the Scriptures.
Your conclusion that god revealed himself through Scripture is based on insufficient reasoning. How do you know it's the right scripture? And even if it were right, the "rightness" would only conform to 0.05% of all possible knowledge.
p1. Humans were made good.p2. Therefore it is inconceivable that humans could have been made any "gooder".p3. A human who is able to contend morally reprehensible temptations is "gooder" than a human who cannot contend morally reprehensible temptations.p4. Humans (Adam & Eve) did not contend morally reprehensible temptations (the serpent)c1. Therefore it is conceivable that there is a "gooder" human that could exist.Ergo. A contradiction arises between p1 and c1.I am fine with p1. I think that p2 is flawed since both the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil existed.
It's not possible to affirm only one of p1 or p2. Being made good in this context necessarily entails that one couldn't be any better, for if it were conceivable, then the conception itself would have been what God create. Either God created ultimately moral people or he did not.
p3 is an interesting proposition. Yet I can't agree with it yet. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by contend. It may be you mean resist. Yet I am still not comfortable with the term "gooder". We will have to explore that further. If you don't mind.
I think resist is a good term to use. Is it not trivial that a person who resists the urge to be evil is better than person who cannot? A person who caves in to their desire to steal is less moral than a person who uses rationality to conclude that it is wrong.
c1 again is probably true - but not necessarily flowing out of the above conclusions.
If he could, then what benefit does creating these sinning people. Another topic I have been pondering is why God created in the first place. It is an issue, as I see it.
p1. God is infinitely good, that is, God's essence is that which could not be any better.
p2. God creating humans does not make reality any better.
c1. There was no point in creating people.
Jesus, who Christians consider a new thing - like Adam, was also tempted from without. the devil came to him and despite the thoughts being put to him - Jesus rightly rejected them all.So if Jesus was a "free" man who rejected all sin, why couldn't God make people like Jesus? That would be a true utopia - free will individual who chose only to do what is good.He did make a person like Jesus.
My question isn't whether he made a couple people like Jesus, but rather why didn't he create the population as he did Jesus? What is the point of all these sinning people? We have established that "free will" is not a defence for sin, so what's the point?
So gratuitous evils, such as animal suffering in the billions, serves some good to the future? This seems wholly implausible.That is not what I said. God is not utilitarian. The means and the ends matter. The point I was making is that whatever world you can imagine, it would not be better than this one for the purposes it was made.If our world is the best possible world, then would you agree that every murder which occurs is not only morally acceptable, but morally obligatory? If we live in the best possible world, and in this world there are street mugging and whatnot, then the street muggings and whatnot must be apart of what makes this the best possible world. WIthout the muggings, it would not be as good.As I said above - I hold this in tension. Out of the possible worlds that could have been created - this is the best possible one.
So then you would affirm that every murder which occurs is not only morally acceptable, but morally obligatory.
But on the other hand - every human is entirely responsible for their actions.
This entails free will then - people are the authors of their own actions.
So why not skip our world and create New Heaven?Just because someone wants to skip school because it contains bullies, does not mean that school is not the best option.But if the option of skipping school involved you being transferred into heaven, which is supposed to have all the "goods" of this world and much more, then yes I would take that option for there would tautologically be no harm in doing so.God has not given us that option. I suppose he wanted us to learn something about good from the evil we witness.
God could have instilled that wisdom into our minds, just as how he intils intuition.
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@3RU7AL
What's your point? Obviously if you get surgery you can make yourself look like whatever you want. Look! Here's a real life Na'vi. I am saying that, on balance, in almost every single case, men carry the characteristics of men and women carry the characteristics of women, and that these are intrinsic in a person and unchangeable.
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@3RU7AL
Yes but you cannot contend that 99.9 percent of people can identify with 99.9 percent accuracy the populations sex without genitals.
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@Tradesecret
Human nature places a blocking mechanism on free will to do what is possible and proper.
There are restraints but would you agree or contend the idea that human free will is truer than determinism? When someone sins, do you believe they do so because of a necessary causal chain, or because of choice?
You speak as though you believe you know all things. Are you omniscient? Is there anything in this universe you don't know? Given a very generous gift, I think you would know less that .05% of everything. Are you really saying that because you find something pointless in your .05% of everything, that in the other 99.95% of everything that the answer might not be there?
If we know .05% of all that is to be known, then our knowledge of God is one which is based in insufficient reasoning - precisely, it is based on only .05% of all facts. I know things just as how you report you know things - because they best conform to what we know.
We say humanity was made good. They were made without sin. Sin, you will notice, or the temptation to sin, did not arise from within the person, it arose from outside the person, in the form of whatever the serpent was.
p1. Humans were made good.
p2. Therefore it is inconceivable that humans could have been made any "gooder".
p3. A human who is able to contend morally reprehensible temptations is "gooder" than a human who cannot contend morally reprehensible temptations.
p4. Humans (Adam & Eve) did not contend morally reprehensible temptations (the serpent)
c1. Therefore it is conceivable that there is a "gooder" human that could exist.
Ergo. A contradiction arises between p1 and c1.
Jesus, who Christians consider a new thing - like Adam, was also tempted from without. the devil came to him and despite the thoughts being put to him - Jesus rightly rejected them all.
So if Jesus was a "free" man who rejected all sin, why couldn't God make people like Jesus? That would be a true utopia - free will individual who chose only to do what is good.
So gratuitous evils, such as animal suffering in the billions, serves some good to the future? This seems wholly implausible.That is not what I said. God is not utilitarian. The means and the ends matter. The point I was making is that whatever world you can imagine, it would not be better than this one for the purposes it was made.
If our world is the best possible world, then would you agree that every murder which occurs is not only morally acceptable, but morally obligatory? If we live in the best possible world, and in this world there are street mugging and whatnot, then the street muggings and whatnot must be apart of what makes this the best possible world. WIthout the muggings, it would not be as good.
So why not skip our world and create New Heaven?Just because someone wants to skip school because it contains bullies, does not mean that school is not the best option.
But if the option of skipping school involved you being transferred into heaven, which is supposed to have all the "goods" of this world and much more, then yes I would take that option for there would tautologically be no harm in doing so.
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@Tradesecret
P1. All people have free will.Ok. But what does that mean? Some Christians think it means free to do anything they want. Reformed folk think that there is not a logical connection between doing what one wants to do - and what one ought to do.Free will
- the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
The dictionary does not define the Christian notion of freewill anymore than the definition defines the Christian concept of God. We understand the meaning from the bible itself. I don't hold to the idea that freewill is something without constraint. If that is your definition then it is not the Christian definition and then your entire argument becomes irrelevant to me. I take the view that our free will - whatever that actually means - is constrained by lots of things. I would like to fly. But I can't. I am not a bird. I would like to marry a beautiful model. I can't because she is already married to someone else.
You can't fly not because you are constrained by physics, not fate. Free will refers to your "choice" of tea over coffee, the choice of walking instead of cycling. Do you believe in this postulation?
P2. People in heaven do not sin.There is no sin in heaven. It is not a matter of whether they do not sin. There is no sin in heaven.Is there no sin in heaven because it is forbid, or because people choose not to sin?In the New Heavens there is no sin. God has destroyed it completely. People don't want to sin even if they could choose. Their eyes have been opened to the reality of God and his power.
So what's the point of our world if God could create New Heaven? The sin is needless.
God did create people without sin. He made them and he put them in the Garden of Eden. They chose to rebel and sin.
If they chose to sin then they weren't sinless were they - there was some "sinful" desire in their body which prompted them to act immorally.
I would say that his omniscience has led him to create this world because it was the best world of any potential scenario. And any other scenario would have been much worse.
So gratuitous evils, such as animal suffering in the billions, serves some good to the future? This seems wholly implausible.
I think I have suggested that the New Heavens is a world without sin. That is the only better world.
So why not skip our world and create New Heaven?
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@3RU7AL
you don't know what someone looks like naked.
I don't need to look at genitals to distinguish between men and women - they have very different facial constructions e.g
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@3RU7AL
I'll say what I said before, and that is oughtn't it be the priority of society to first what is most accurate and then act in accordance with it?It is important to maintain a constant awareness of and vigilant respect of our epistemological limits.some things are PROVABLY TRUEsome things are PROVABLY FALSEthese two categories cover less than 1% of human knowledge
I don't get what the point is. Do you think it is an epistemic limit to differentiate between men and women?
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@Tradesecret
P1. All people have free will.Ok. But what does that mean? Some Christians think it means free to do anything they want. Reformed folk think that there is not a logical connection between doing what one wants to do - and what one ought to do.
Free will
- the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
P2. People in heaven do not sin.There is no sin in heaven. It is not a matter of whether they do not sin. There is no sin in heaven.
Is there no sin in heaven because it is forbid, or because people choose not to sin?
C1. People can have free will (by virtue of being people) and not sin (by virtue of the existence of heaven).you premise is true only in the fact that people in the New Heaven are able to be sinless.
That's fine it doesn't matter which heaven we reference.
C3. God has created people who have free will and do not sin.God is not making new people in the New Heaven.
how did they actualise then.
C4. God can create people who have free will and do not sin.Yes, he can but not flowing on from C3 as implied by you.
Nevertheless, if the conclusion is true then why didn't he create the sinless free people without the sin?
P1. God is that who can institute any possible worldI don't agree with this premise. Holiness is God's chief attribute. The world he creates - must accord with holiness in the manner in which he made it.
This premise isn't supposed to be some riddle - it merely stipulates that God is all powerful and therefore can create any world which is logical.
P2. A world in which free will exists and no sins occur is possible (evidenced by heaven and the existence of God himself, who is presumably sinless and free) is possibleC1 God could have instituted that worldI think God created our world - and that this was good and therefore everything else is pure speculation.
This world is good? So you cannot conceive of any possible world in which is marginally better than ours?
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@Tradesecret
I hope your personal life is well.
In the time of your absence, I have unleashed an unrelenting and undisputable falsification of the Christian God, which takes the following form.
P1. All people have free will.
P2. People in heaven do not sin.
C1. People can have free will (by virtue of being people) and not sin (by virtue of the existence of heaven).
P3. God created all People.
C2. God created the People in C1.
C3. God has created people who have free will and do not sin.
C4. God can create people who have free will and do not sin.
Another rendition:
P1. God is that who can institute any possible world
P2. A world in which free will exists and no sins occur is possible (evidenced by heaven and the existence of God himself, who is presumably sinless and free) is possible
C1 God could have instituted that world
What do you have to say about this?
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@3RU7AL
there are women who are "biologically female" and still look very much like men and are commonly mistaken for menthere are men who are "biologically male" and still look very much like women and are commonly mistaken for women
There are also guys who look like Chewbacca yet no ones confused over their species.
BUT THIS REALLY REALLY REALLY BEGS THE QUESTION OF WHY YOU THINK ANY OF THIS IS "IMPORTANT"
I'll say what I said before, and that is oughtn't it be the priority of society to first what is most accurate and then act in accordance with it?
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Let's see it.
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@rbelivb
Why refer to someone as "she" if the totality of their biology correlates with male?
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@3RU7AL
why do you need "acknowledgement" of such a thing ?
Acknowledging isn't asking for much, especially when regarding truth.
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@rbelivb
But the "underlying biological fact" is seldom acknowledged by gender ideologists.
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@rbelivb
Conservatives may not happen to like this social convention, and prefer that pronouns used in conversation always mapped onto biology or the gender assigned at birth. However, the fact that progressives disagree, in no way implies that they are confused about the science of biology.
First, I've never encountered a gender ideologist who believes that calling a trans man a man is scientifically wrong and yet support it on the grounds that it is a societal convention.
Second, do societal conventions trump truth? Oughtn't it be the priority of society to first uncover what is most accurate and then act in accordance with it?
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The totality of everything, not to be confused with the totality of all local things.
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@imdancin
As you are a Christian and do everything to glorify him, what do you have to say about this detrimental flaw in his existence. Why did he allow sin?
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@USBurning
I’m not exactly adept at website programing, but logically, as the domain “debate.org” is to be vacated, wouldn’t it follow that our webmaster can then buy the domain and transfer all data over there?
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Suffering is needless and unnecessary for the integrity of free will.
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@DebateArt.com
To churn some activity here we could
- buy the ddo domain and transfer all data onto it and renaming the cite (DDO is bound to still have a good fanbase)
- send some recruiters over to save the stragglers.
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Another rendition:
P1. God is that who can institute any possible world
P2. A world in which free will exists and no sins occur is possible (evidenced by heaven and the existence of God himself, who is presumably sinless and free) is possible
C1 God could have instituted that world
Ergo he didn’t because he doesn’t exist
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@thett3
Damn looks like E-my son-thang has to find a new hobby.
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@PGA2.0
@Tradesecret
@Conservallectual
@imdancin
Thoughts? This is quite the theistic knockdown argument.
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@Stephen
Ones which don't challenge the integrity of his religion
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@Dr.Franklin
Because you "don't give a fuck" maybe?
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@Dr.Franklin
Then why did you comment in the forum.
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@Dr.Franklin
I'm not referring to freedom as in the "freedom from sin", I'm referring to freedom of will, and making the argument that God created the world with a whole lot more unnecessary suffering.
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Careful theists...
P1. All people have free will.
P2. People in heaven do not sin.
C1. People can have free will (by virtue of being people) and not sin (by virtue of the existence of heaven).
P3. God created all People.
C2. God created the People in C1.
C3. God has created people who have free will and do not sin.
P2. People in heaven do not sin.
C1. People can have free will (by virtue of being people) and not sin (by virtue of the existence of heaven).
P3. God created all People.
C2. God created the People in C1.
C3. God has created people who have free will and do not sin.
C4. God can create people who have free will and do not sin.
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@oromagi
Just to forefront, I do not want to be associated with election skeptics - I find troubles with the documentaries, namely the question of how, even if "mules" existed, we know they voted Democrat instead of Republican. I must admit that there are some points which I've heard which ostensibly are worth investigating.
-->@oromagiI think that the stipulation that there existed people travelling to numerous drop boxes is different to the veracity of the diagram depicted -Let's stipulate that in any city of millions it should be a very simple exercise to discover patterns of 5 visits in 30 days by people numbering in the thousands travelling between any two given high traffic areas- between the county courthouse and a nearby McDonald's, for example.
I think the allegation is substantially more than 5 visits in 30 days.
The veracity of the diagram depicted by itself should be utterly disqualifying. You say "30 drop boxes in a single day" because D'Souza presented you a graphic showing one person traveling to 28 locations in one day. When the Post points out there were not drop boxes at most of those locations, Phillips confirms the deception by saying that the graphic should not be interpreted literally.
I think it can be reasonably said that the diagram was merely a visual stimuli to pair with the "facts and statistics" which D'Souza was dictating, as opposed to an geographical recreation of the alleged "mules" path. Is there any rebuttal to the actual claim that of suspicious movement?
The claimants made almost no effort to establish who these people were or the legitimacy of their travel.
I think the establishment was a circumstantial one - the claim that the patterns of highly specific movements are suspicious.
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@oromagi
I think that the stipulation that there existed people travelling to numerous drop boxes is different to the veracity of the diagram depicted - I was thinking more along the lines of the assertion that geolocation as a tool found many "mules" travelling in irregular patterns.
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@oromagi
Do you think there is credibility to the claim that geolocation has shown that "mules" have been paying visits to 30 drop boxes in a single day?
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@Polytheist-Witch
I think the post is referring more to the more scandalous askings for money which the church are prone to doing - trading bars of gold for a ticket to heaven, for example.
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Theists bear the BoP. Atheism is the label which is given to one who is on the negative side of the debate, whilst theists are on the positive. It doesn't matter what the world view of the atheist is for that is not what is in discussion.
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@imdancin
So (millions of) miscarriages happens because Adam ate the apple from the Forbidden Tree?
Which life would you save, your 8 year old or your 5 year old? Which one deserves life more? How about your child with handicap or your child with no handicap?
If you look at my past debates you will see that I argue in favour of pro-life, but you must admit that the saving of literal cells over a child is very odd. There is quantifiable suffering which can be inflicted upon the child whilst the cells will feel nothing.
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@imdancin
"If God exists, God is the most prolific abortionist that exists. "So you are saying God if He exists is nothing but evil. You are saying that He programs people to do evil and He is ultimately responsible. So where does your evilness fit into the equation? Because I am sure you are not perfect. Did God program you to do bad things so that you could blame Him? And if He created and acts out evil...how do you explain the good in the world? God does evil....mankind does good?
All I said was that if God exists, then he is the most prolific abortionist. This is because
- Miscarriage is the instance in which a pregnancy has failed and thereby caused the death of a baby.
- Miscarriage is a natural occurrence.
- "God constructed nature"
- Therefore when I say that God is a prolific abortionist, I mean that by his creation, millions of babies die.
"On another note, would you rather abort 3 embryos which have reached the blastocyst stage, (approximately five to six days after fertilization) or kill a single child"I can honestly say that I don't want to see any human life killed, even the tiniest in the womb . If that which is created as a living human by God for God...I can't minimize its importance because to God it's all good and His creation.
I don't want to see any human lives killed either but that is the point of the conundrum. Would you pick for 3 embryos at the blastocyst stage, or a child.
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@imdancin
I had a miscarriage and did not know it.
If God exists, God is the most prolific abortionist that exists.
On another note, would you rather abort 3 embryos which have reached the blastocyst stage, (approximately five to six days after fertilization) or kill a single child
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@imdancin
He's this chump who I humiliated and destroyed it was more ruthless than Ben Shapiro "DESTROYING" people.
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Would you rather
- Commit 30 1st trimester abortions
- Kill 1 toddler.
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Last online - 1 month ago
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@Barney
Does anyone actually claim this?
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Herein enters the populous slogan "if you believe in abortion only in the cases of rape, you are enforcing the idea that women must be violated in order to have a right to their body"
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@ADreamOfLiberty
the phenotypic cluster which produces eggs
First, this definition plausibly prohibits the transgender philosophy.
Second, a liberal would ask "what if an individual possess all the characteristics of a female but cannot produce eggs?
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@Conservallectual
To support/attack a claim you must first prove/disprove it scientifically.
How do you support the claim that scientific proofs are the standard by which we judge truth? If the only way is to use science, then you must use science to prove this claim, which is circular.
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