Castin

I see people never grow tired of the Atheist/Theist Historical Blamethrowing game. 

"No ur ideology killed more people."

"No UR ideology killed more people."

However one should not ignore the facts and the facts do show a disproportionately higher rate of death and suffering due to religious conflict, i.e. religious zealots at each others thrats trying to prove who has the best imaginary friend. 

So my question is. Do you agree that the Pauline epistles are the first historically reliable mention of Jesus Christ? Do you believe that Claudius was referring to Jesus Christ? And is it not reasonable to conclude that a historical mention of Jesus Christ within approximately 17 years of his death points to Jesus Christ being an actual historical figure at the very least? Even if we doubt his divinity and the miraculous claims attributed to him, there is evidence to suggest he was at the very least historical, and there probably was indeed a man named Jesus Christ with a mother probably named Mary?

Look, if the bible is to be believed at all on any level, then lives had already been saved , he had already, according to the bible, resurrected and saved "dead " people. He had also already been  "forgiving" people all over the place, too. The story is a nonsense that falls flat simply because Jesus' own actions prove it to be nonsense.

Any true beliver in God does not need to ask any questions to God and also God did state in the Bible to ask no questions. 

Why would you want to question God anyway?

Just had myself two hot cross buns. 

With Triple butter. 

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm 

Got me to thinking,

Jesus didn't die on the cross to forgive our sins. 

He did it so we can allllllllllllll enjoy Hot cross buns.   

So ummmmm yeah. 

Praise the Lord.  

Well that is seriously the only thing that I can see we humans have gained from that. 

“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34).  Amazing isn't it. Jesus asks god to forgive his mockers and persecutors. Why?  Why didn't Jesus himself forgive them as he had been forgiving others including those that hung by his side!?  

I thought the entire function of a "free press" was to EXPOSE government incompetence.

Excellent reporting.

I'm just wondering why it's not "front-page-news".

I'm just wondering why nobody ("official") is showing this 57 second long clip.

do you think trump will go through tweet withdrawal now that he's banned from twitter?

do you think the lovers and haters will go through trump withdrawal when they can't see his every thought at every second of the day? and withdrawal when he finally ceases to be president? what will happen when the antagonist of our story isn't there any more? 

Now you're just asking to get fact-checked.

I don't know anyone who trusts global corporations.

Are you telling me you don't know anyone who thinks "the vaccine" (which isn't technically a vaccine) is 100% safe?

The next four years will be, if anything, entertaining. All I need say is, "Joe did it again," and y'all will know what I'm taking about.

In reply to a question to Joe Biden posed by Peter Doocy, Joe replied 'You're a one-horse pony."

Will one of you more familiar with Joe's euphemisms please tell me how many horses ponies are supposed to have, since Joe's reply was clearly an insult? While you're at it, tell me what face a lying pony soldier should have. And, tell me why Joe is fixated on horses, because his commentary certainly compares to what comes from their backends. Is it that they're hairy?

IT'S THE FUCKING **CENTRISTS** WHO TRUST "GLOBAL CORPORATIONS".

I take the view that this is because they - like you - and the Baptist church have a faulty view of authority. And of legitimacy.  You misunderstand the gospels and the Word of God and you are all too arrogant to consider that real power comes in humility, like the Lord Jesus Christ when he left his throne in heaven to become a man.  

We are not to lord it over others.  That is the way of the Catholic church and the way of the Baptists - and from what I read of your church, it is the same with your lot. You have forsaken humility in favor of authority in a top down system. 

Jesus led as a servant. That is his system of leadership.  Not arrogance. Not isolating people. Not telling others that they are not legitimate followers. He - simply said - "follow me".  And so far as his people follow him, they will be on a much safer path of assurance than all the trappings of tradition and religion that many churches around the world want to put onto them.  

Lol. We've seen it more recently right here in this Kingdom Castin. Remember this?

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3621-moderation-notice-religion?page=1&post_number=20

Related to the OP, Speedrace and I have made the decision to begin locking new threads created by already banned users. This is in accordance with the CoC as per the invented actions clause.

- Ragnar

When and where have we seen this before?

The Bible says a murderer must be put to death. They don't get a "kill a goat"

Take it as you will, but it was slight sarcasm.  What does it say about the rapist murderer that repents!!!??

A man was  tortured and killed for the sins of others wasn't he?  He paid with blood didn't he , if the scriptures are to be believed?  And now there are many murdering rapists in his heavenly paradise. If you believe these scriptures as they have come down to us?

 Why is that Christians are too stupid to even recognise, for themselves, the further implications. 

Weather I accepted this "offer" or not, I also have to accept that I am responsible for the every single vicious lash of the brutal flogging, and the mocking and  every strike of every nail being driven home into the flesh of another human being during  the crucifixion. In which I had absolutely nothing to do with, and no say. I have to also agree that every time I decline this responsibility by something I may say or action I take, that I intensify the agony of it all. 

I am also required to believe that all of this pain, suffering, torture and agony was absolutely necessary in order to compensate for some earlier sin/crime in which I also played no part in.- the sin of Adam. I could expand further but I don't think that I have to .  Do you not see how this is all beginning to come across?

Atheist realtors don't believe in non-falsifiable real estate claims.

I don't think atheist realty sucks, I think we're very honest realtors.

Okay I got you now because I should say reality rite. Realty is a very noble and tuff profession but your having to admit that your not going to sell the sausage because you have to sell the sizzle and the sizzle is the x faktor rite.

I'm not sure that one can say that sacrifice as atonement was there from the beginning. No one uses sacrifice to deal with sin issues until the book of Exodus.

Building on to the idea that anything that can be a sacrifice for the sake of atonement would include calling Jesus the "meal offering" of God because flour is used by the poorest instead of birds. And this would limit Jesus' atoning powers to only those sins which sacrifice is involved in atonement for.

What a lot of people don't know, even some Christians, is that we do die for our sins. When we give ourselves to Jesus, the first thing He does is hide our lives/ soul inside Him and we die with Him on the cross, paying for our sin the way God said we would. (The soul that sins shall die)

Jesus then recreates us and we share in His resurrection. This is where the phrase "born again" comes from. The bible says even the righteous shall be save as if by fire. You see, Jesus was not saving us from the small transition we call death, but from the real death. The 2nd death. So we do die. We do pay. But we are resurrected with Jesus.

The animal sacrifices in the OT were a sort of a forshadowing of what Jesus would do for us. It was also for the people at the time because shame and guilt harm people mentally. A lot of times, God institutes things because of our frailties, not because He needs them.

But if I had been stupid and unheeding of warnings and fallen into, say, an active volcano, and later regaining consciousness found that someone had sacrificed his life to get me out, knowing He would die in the process, I would be sad that He died, but I would think what He voluntarily did was selfless, noble, and heroic. His sacrifice would not disgust me even if I had had the choice before he did it and old Him not to.

Now if someone was forced to die for me, not by his own choice, that would disgust me. But that is not what happened with Jesus. He is a hero in the truest definition of the word.

He, a great and righteous  King, died to save me, a wretched sinful nobody. He did not have to, and I could never repay Him. It is a miracle of selfless love and mercy. I love Him because He first loved me.

What does the word wylted even mean though? Is it supposed to be a play on the word wilted in some way?

I believe that if you look in the bible, you will see both that individuals are held to account for their own sins, and that they can perform certain measures of atonement and earn forgiveness for certain sins by being willing to lose something -- that might be losing a measure of health (by receiving lashings), a measure of money (by paying a fine) or by losing physical goods, by the sacrificing of an animal or grain product. These sacrifices, these losses are a punishment in a sense, and also a reminder of subservience -- we give to God when we have acted against God (the Hebrew is "korban" which means "being brought closer" -- the act of giving of the self to God brings us closer to obedience and shows a contrite nature).

But again, this is only to earn atonement for certain types of sins, and it requires very specific sacrifices -- part of the process is following directions.

 Why all the nonsense of atonement and  killing animals for "sin" in the first place ? 

Why is it  that the all powerful god cannot simply say you are forgiven and I shouldn't have punished all of mankind forever for  what someone else did a billion years ago?

 How does killing a goat for instance  excuse someone that has raped and murderer someones daughter?  Why should such an animal have a place in a "heavenly paradise"? 

The reason why God doesn't "ask" us (lol) if we want such an option is because God wants it to be a gift, knowing that we as frail humans making stupid decisions are also in many ways stupid so we should really never have to be fully accountable for ALL the things we do forever, and so God provides a safety net if we wish to abide in it and use it. Many times we make mistakes and do stupid crap because we are just limited in the way we think and eventually we may change, and God understands that which is why grace exists. Any atonement is simply grace which presents itself in the form of forgiveness which simply passes your guilt to another place.

You're very bright Castin, which is why I always admire you.

I could post some of your past comments that would make Jesus seem mild by comparison if I took away all the context.

And he also says "blessed are the peacemakers" and "love thine enemy" and "turn the other cheek" and "all who live by the sword will die by the sword." The dude could vacillate between harsh and hippie.

 Well when we consider what ancient Palestine was like under Roman rule(read Josephus).  I am sure I would be saying one thing in the open and another behind their backs. When Jesus said "render unto Caesar" it must have sent the Galilean zealots into a frenzy. Their hatred of Rome and anything Roman is well documented and to pay tax to Rome was anathema to these cut-throat assassins. 

Taken as a whole, Jesus seems to be saying that even though peace is the intent,

I think he was giving the  diplomatic approach a chance. And had an army on standby. And he got cut down before he had a chance to use it.  Just like the Baptist.  This of course didn't save Jerusalem or the temple. The Romans finally had enough of the infighting of the many different sects and all hell broke lose.

his message will inevitably bring mixed and controversial reactions,

Indeed the mixed massages come thick and fast in these scriptures. Jesus did a lot in secret and was visited after dark  in secrete by members of the council. One can only image these rich men were  supporting and funding his cause..  and who can forget that he spoke one thing to the commoners and another "for those with ears".

potentially dividing households and turning children against their traditionalist Jewish parents.

Yes this is what rebellion causes. When one wants to change or upset the status quo. It also happens every time we approach an new age. Jesus and  his disciples  discussed the end of the age and the new age to come a few times. I believe this played a large part in Jesus'cause. and his claim to the throne.

And in the case where a person must choose between Jesus's message and their family, it is imperative that they choose his message.

It is never made clear what  Jesus the Jew's  message really was. But  two claims he makes stand out from all of the rest don't they.

Matthew 10:34

 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword"

Matthew 15:24   "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Nowhere will we find a single reference where Jesus admits to his inner circle of coming to specifically do die for their sins. There are a few verses that could be crowbarred into suggesting that he did as much, such  as John 3:16,  but it will be a struggle to squeeze these words into the mouth of Jesus and sins are not even mentioned, only belief. 

The bible seems to suggest we alone are responsible. Deuteronomy11:16 “ take heed of yourself”.

Genesis4; 9  “Where is Abel your brother?”

He said, “I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?

“Am I my brother's keeper?”

Is this to say that I am not responsible for anyone but myself, my actions and my own behaviour?

No atheist sees a baby and thinks "ANOTHER MEMBER OF OUR CABAL IS BORN! HAIL YE PHYSICS AND SCIENCE!"

I seem to recall he was in the penalty box for six months. 

I could say the same thing to you!  You're one of the reasons I did decide to post again. I have not been disappointed.

He mentioned he will eventually cancel his cell service,

Well his battery hasn't worn down yet   . This thread was started -  I am about to become a monk -  29 days ago

And he's going strong  the last time I checked , this morning

#139