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@Outplayz
The not many people thing is a good point. And I myself have been blocked simply because someone disliked what I had to say. But the block feature is a user right (so ordained by the administration) and we can't take away people's given freedom to use it. ... I hope to God I didn't just summon the "WRONG! you have no rights!" brigade. I'm using the word loosely goddamn it, get back you harpies.
As for the possibility that the person was not truly trying to be abusive, do you think it's likely that the mods would take action on someone who didn't mean to be abusive or wasn't crossing a line? They always give plenty of warnings before any ban and plenty of time for the user in question to respond to the warnings and explain him/her self in a reasonable manner. Wouldn't this weed out people who meant no harm?
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@drafterman
Your advertising technique was indeed very effective. @ everyone and get a huge turnout.
Given that the loss of anonymity didn't prevent it, how do you think it will prevent it in the future?
Well, that's the thing. There were several events that happened close together and are making it unclear to me what caused what, or what worked and what didn't. Report anonymity being lifted, the mods discovering you were the spam reporter, improvements being made to report handling, and you stopping your spam reporting, all happened in fairly quick succession.
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@EtrnlVw
Much appreciated. I've known you to be a well-meaning person and I can imagine what it must be like to be so constantly mocked and insulted. It would try anyone's patience. I didn't think what you said was a threat. I read it as "you'll get what's coming to you".
My ticket would probably say hell, since I haven't accepted Jesus as my lord and savior. But I'll have to agree that one's expectations must not be too high when debating religion. Discussing religion can be a shitstorm and the internet can be a shitstorm; combining the two makes a mega shitstorm.
I hope you and jane patch things up btw, I was sad to see your falling out.
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@Outplayz
What would said person do if everyone in the religion forum that dislikes him/her says they don't want to be talked to by the user in question? He/she can only talk to people that agree? And how is it harassment if i think your view is poisonous to the world and someone has to say something? Just let you say it unabated bc it makes you feel uncomfortable i targeted your view?
Come on. If they alienate that many people, they need to take a look at their behavior. 😄 The idea of so many people blocking you that you can no longer even find conversation on the forums seems extreme.
And it's often the case that bitter rivals don't really want to ignore each other, because the fact is their clash is a source of ongoing stimulation to them. It's a big part of what they come here for. So even people who argue the most intensely and offensively may not be quick to block each other or ask for a restraining order.
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Jesus makes people feel loved, watched over, joyful, and at peace. Their image of Jesus comes from the New Testament and the New Testament is in the Bible, ergo the Bible inspires them.
But it would be interesting if we magically removed all preachers and teachers of religion, leaving only Bibles in the world, to see how many people would take inspiration from just the book, no preachers. I think many still would.
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@EtrnlVw
Hell doesn't exist, when you die you are dead, deal with it.Hell doesn't exist like prisons do not exist lol, get real atheist. You'll be quite surprised when your flesh hits the dirt. That's not a threat BTW, it is a treat. One that you will find pretty fascinating. You can be an atheist all you like, but your consciousness will pull away from the physical body at death and only then will you realize you made mockery of all of us for no good reason....Don't worry little man, it'll be nice and quick. Only you won't be able to bring your mommy with ya....
This is disappointing language to hear from you, Ev. I had hoped you wouldn't let gus drag you down to this level. You might say I have a vested interest in how you view atheists.
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@Outplayz
I think it makes sense to tell a harasser to stop talking to his target, and to penalize the harasser if he then won't stop talking to the target. How obsessed is this guy that he can't just stay away from this one person? He can talk to literally anyone else. He came to the site to debate other views and the restraining order doesn't prohibit that.
I think you tend to assume others have your standards of what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior, when really you have a much higher threshold for offense than the average poster. Even I just can't agree with the notion that harassment isn't harassment as long as the harasser tosses in the barest whisper of an argument to get the post to pass inspection.
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@keithprosser
"Who has the most stamina" could be another way of saying "who is the best advocate" imo. But I don't think either formal debates or the forum really reach definitive conclusions about reality or who is really right. Debates decide nothing except what a few passing humans voted on, and in the forums there is no vote at all. Your success counts by reputation only, not by score.
Debates are entertaining because they're formal and the forum is entertaining because it's informal. I enjoy both for different reasons and I think it's silly to attempt to delegitimize one or the other. They're both popular and they both draw people to the site.
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@ethang5
But you probably know this already don't you?
Sadly.
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@keithprosser
I think even the forums are about who is the best advocate. We rarely find out "what is true" here.Formal debating is a sport - it is about finding out who is the best advocate, not what is true. It is where would-be lawyers and aspiring policians prictice being persuasive - a champion debater should have no problem arguing and winning either side of a debate.The best way to get to the truth is by co-operative brain-storming in the forums not adversorial debate. Its just pity it never works out!
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@ShabShoral
Friendly. I don't know, should I leave an unattended campfire burning in the forest just because it's firefighters' jobs to put out forest fires anyway and they knew what they were signing up for? Despite it being their voluntary job, it's possible that a quick growing fire could get out of control and temporarily overwhelm their resources. I'm going off of this comment of bish's: "Even with the report limit in place, a user could overwhelm moderation's current capabilities depending on how many other reports come in at once."
Faced with a choice between avoiding that or not avoiding that, I choose avoiding that.
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@disgusted
I think many of them genuinely believe and have faith. I think a lot of others are just going through the motions. But as you said, many are raised into those beliefs. Simply telling someone their beliefs are wrong cannot compete with everything they were taught in their entire childhood. It's not realistic to expect them to put 20+ years aside as soon as someone "informs" them they're wrong. Especially when the person "informing" them they're wrong is being an asshole. I don't agree with this "fight fire with fire" attitude. I don't think it helps anything, I think it makes it worse.
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@disgusted
I'm not a fan. It has never changed anyone's mind and is only destructive. Mocking someone triggers their self-defense response, and making someone feel defensive makes them believe they're more right, not less.Hateful laughter is a funny concept, what say you?
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@disgusted
Oooh laughing at stupidity is hate now?Would you care to elaborate?
Well you're quoting something I speculated you might say, so I'm not sure if you're asking me why I thought you might say it, or if you're asking how I feel about the concept of hateful laughter in general.
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@disgusted
Have you considered that they're merely stating what they believe is true, not lying?
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With this post, and in the absence of any information which may counter it or put matters in a new light, I have changed my vote to no anonymity. I don't think the potential benefits of anonymous reporting are worth the troubles it would place on mods.
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@ethang5
I don't. And I don't think this is a flame war. Don't worry, neither RM or I will start or take part in a flame war.
Truth be told I don't think the previous dispute was a flamewar either. But I was one of the participants in it, so I suppose I can't judge objectively.
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@disgusted
I really don't know why you keep bringing up ethan to me. If you're talking about the thread in the DART subforum, my irritation wasn't about who you attacked. It was more about the hypocrisy of saying someone's a troll when you troll all the time. It just really bugged me. And it was a cumulative buildup of watching you attack many people across many threads, not just one.
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@keithprosser
I'm shy... you start it.
Hey it's not my claim! 😄
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@keithprosser
It's almost as if the brain punishes us for seeing the world as it is, and rewards us for seeing the world as it isn't.Imagine a vast, clockwork machine. It has millions of finely detailed cogs and levers pulling and pushing on each other. I want you to imagine it is as beautiful and complicated as you can.If we watch the machine we see the cogs turning and the levers pushing, but it doesn't have any purpose. It runs and ticks, the wheels and cogs spin and turn and the levers push and pull in complicated ways but all without purpose. It will continue to tick pointlessly until the day it breaks and stops forever, having done nothing except spin its cogs and push its levers. As far as we can tell the machine came from nowhere and having done so ticks in futile purposelessness to an end, all for nothing.That is only an initial at a metaphor of the universe - no doubt it can be criticised and improved! The point it that I can imagine there are people who can and cannot accept it as a metaphor of the universe. If you can then you are probably an atheist - I suggest typical theists cannot accept that the universe is a pointless mechanism that runs for no reason with no purpose, no meaning nor goal to it.
Not right, of course. It's more like the brain rewards us for thinking anything that's conducive to our survival. Despair and pointlessness are demoralizing and the mind must protect itself from them somehow. There's a reason humanity has been reaching for religion since the dawn of higher consciousness.
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Debate rounds can have dreadfully long walls of text that can be very tedious to read. Do any experienced members have any tips or advice on how to make it easier to get through them?
In a full forfeit debate, is your style to award all points to the non-forfeiter, or to award the conduct point to the non-forfeiter but tie everything else? Why?
I've been doing the latter, but I'm debating it. The argument for the former is presumably that if a person forfeits they should get no points, not even tie points. And the argument for the latter is presumably that if no one made any arguments or posted any sources, no points should be given in favor of either side.
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@ethang5
Well it seems like the major contrast is just our personalities.I still perceive a big difference between your type of atheist and our troll emeritus.
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@keithprosser
Shut up and make the thread, I must have it. I am literally getting angrier with every second that passes without that thread existing.
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Do you guys think this thread is cursed to always have flamewars.
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@ethang5
Social and political has always been a blurry line.
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@keithprosser
That's begging for its own thread. Begging.
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@DebateArt.com
@janesix
I apologize, I lost my patience.
My "whoa" was in no way reprobation. You shouldn't feel bad at all. I just hadn't seen you get quite that irritated before and tbh it was hilarious.
You're doing a great job on this site. Please don't listen to this person. Myself and many, many others support you and are grateful for the work you do.
I like it
I'm glad, jane. I was confused for a second and thought that "name something that's NOT shitty" was an agreement with Poly.
I'm also glad to see you outside the religion forum. The rest of the board needs to profit from your presence.
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@ethang5
I can't remind him he has the will to. He doesn't. I can only remind him he has the power to, if he wills it.I remind you that it's within your power to change....But he doesn't want to. With bully it isn't a matter of ability or power, it's a matter of will.
I have no doubt it was futile. I said it anyway.
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@janesix
What do you think of the site, jane?Name something that's NOT shitty.
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@RationalMadman
@Wylted
What. Is that thing. In the video.
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@disgusted
Here's the link again. My proof of your hate posts was... all of them. Your whole history. You can page through and count the "bwahaha's", the "pathetics", etc. As I said, I think the record speaks for itself.
My prediction of your response to this? You'll laugh. Then you'll say laughing is the right thing to do. "Yes I laugh at the stupid godists as it is only right to, they deserve it, they chose their laughable delusion. Oooh laughing at stupidity is hate now? Poor dears. Run back to thang. Bwahahaha!" ... Am I close? 😔 I really wish that wasn't so easy.
You need to understand something, gus. People don't run away from you. They're just reaching the point of diminishing returns and walking away. Getting into an argument with you is always taking a one-way street to a dead end cul-de-sac of the same emotion: mockery. People aren't afraid of cul-de-sacs; they just know they lead nowhere. I remind you that it's within your power to change all this. You could start by responding to the OP's of more threads instead of simply attacking those who do.
Anyway. I wasn't gonna get into this, but you did pursue it. I'll try to leave it here. I don't wish you ill; I wish that you'd become a contributor.
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@ethang5
I like American culture.I wonder if that has anything to do with you NOT being the run the mill liberal?
Not sure. I think the environment is a priority, I want weed legalized, I'm fully accepting of LGBT, I have very un-conservative ideas about sex and "promiscuity", and in general I'm an empathy thinker. Aren't those all standard liberal values?
I think the only thing that's different is I'm sick of PC culture.
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@Outplayz
What do you mean by the bolded sentence?I have not found that last sentence to be true. But I have found that powerful things are forged in fire, and that conflict is defining.Fwiw, I was gonna reply to many other points in your response to me, but they would probably all have fallen under debate about Goldtop, and if you get treated like a Goldtop apologist one more time it seems like you may start shooting people.Yeah... my whole intention here was to bring attention to the definitions of the things he got in trouble for... not so much defend him. But bc i knew Gold and how he acts... i was a little surprised to be honest about the sexual harassment part of it which made me skeptical of the other reasons. But like i've mentioned, i agree with the moderation, however, i think the moderation should take a second look at the implications of things such as harassment when told not to talk to someone. That is just unavoidable and kinda not fair when the person is here to specifically reply to said users bc he/she disagrees with those user... it's a little like entrapment. I think as long as it's minimally substantive ... it shouldn't qualify as harassment.In regards to that last sentence... i wanted to edit that too once i read it back. I just thought you'd say something so i can correct myself in reply, and thankfully you caught it. You do learn a lot from agreeable people... but what you learn from people that are totally against your ideas is different. For instance debating people like Gold have taught me all new analogies to make my point clear, made me focus on defining what i mean more succinctly, etc. You just learn different things from people that disagree with you and these things are extras that strengthen your main points and how they get communicated. That is why i like having people that are polar opposites to someone that is more agreeable or even someone that's nice but not agreeable. Bc nice people don't push you the same way someone that is a little more mean-spirited would.
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@bsh1
Fully agree.Anakin had depth.It's not his emotions that were problematic, it's that he lacked depth: he was one note. He was a crybaby and nothing more.
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@ResurgetExFavilla
I do take pains to say "sociopathic tendencies" instead of "sociopath", a diagnosis I am not qualified to make. I think everyone possesses sociopathic tendencies to a degree. It's a reality of society.
As to the third component of bish's sexual harassment definition -- I would really need examples of what kind of speech would qualify.
I've heard the suicide rate of my generation has climbed significantly. Some researchers theorize that it's because kids are withdrawing into their online worlds with little face to face interaction, so that when they get to college, teasing or taunting is devastating to them. They have no defense. Exposure to hard knocks is definitely necessary to the development of a strong and resilient person.
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@bsh1
I must say that post now has me leaning more toward no anonymity.
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@bsh1
How big of a nuisance would they be with the new report limitations in place? Has stripping report anonymity decreased the number of spam reports?The problem is that the issue may be a problem one week or month but not the next. It's kind of hard to answer your question given that, but I would say that there are reporters who misuse the function to regularly report *clearly* sufficient votes.
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@drafterman
You said you didn't feel special because I did a very callous and inconsiderate mass notification.How about being a tie breaker? Special enough? ;)
Too right, I clutched my pearls with both hands, BOTH hands. The indignity.
I actually hope another voter shows up soon to take the pressure off me. I'd prefer to hear from Mike before I reach a decision. One side's saying the risks are considerable, the other's saying they're way overblown... eh.
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@bsh1
The problem with the report spam argument is I have no idea how big of a problem it would be if reporting was made anonymous again. I'd need to hear a mod's assessment of that, or Mike's. You're the ones who actually handle them.
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@Logical-Master
The argument is simple:1. Knowing the identity of a reporter is immaterial to the substance of the report. The reported comment, vote, thread, etc. is a violation or it is not. The status of that violation does not change if it was reported by Bob vs. Alice.2. Knowing the identity of a report can only possibly introduce bias in how mods respond to reports. Mods should be objective.3. There is no problem that requires knowing the identity of a reporter.I disagree. Knowing the identity of a reporter is useful in weeding out spam reports, granting mods further ability to focus on stuff that actually matters. If a mod has a vendetta against X user, that user can bring it to the attention of the community as we've seen with the issues that have raised in the past several weeks and get it resolved out in the open.As such, my vote is no.
You may want to browse through the thread. He's explained why he thinks spam reports won't be a significant problem. I think this megapost addresses it all.
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Hasn't bish asked for our opinions/votes multiple times now and enacted the changes we voted on?
Anyhow, I vote A. I further remind B-voters that there is a reason A comes before B in the alphabet. Superiority.
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@Outplayz
Harassment should mean someone that goes around and literally harasses you without any substance to their responses.And last point, when they said they told him not to talk to people on this forum... i just don't get that. What are people like him suppose to do? People that are generally skeptics and harsher in their rebuke... what are they suppose to do when the mods tell them they can't talk to anyone? You can't talk to A, b, c, d, e, f, user... you can only talk to Outplayz bc everyone else doesn't like you... i mean common, really? As long as the conversation is minimally substantive and it isn't just random rude remarks... we are all on a public forum and are choosing to put ideas, sometimes radical, on these forums... You're going to be criticized. I just see very little empathy for the side that is being reported on. It seems like mob rule to me right now. The crybabies all getting their way... that just makes zero sense to me. Life is hard, there are mean people in this world... stop hiding and step up and justify yourself and be confident in your ideas ...if it gets no where... instead of being offended, know it's the other person problem. Or, rework and grow yourself. You learn very little from agreeable people.
I have not found that last sentence to be true. But I have found that powerful things are forged in fire, and that conflict is defining.
Fwiw, I was gonna reply to many other points in your response to me, but they would probably all have fallen under debate about Goldtop, and if you get treated like a Goldtop apologist one more time it seems like you may start shooting people.
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@ResurgetExFavilla
Only a narcissist sees anyone who bullies them as a sociopath, because they assume that no sane person could find grievous fault with them.
Ah, codswallop. I would never "assume no sane person could find grievous fault with me", but if I became bullied by a domineering and manipulative pathological liar with no apparent empathy, I would say that person has sociopathic tendencies, and I'd likely be right to say it. I'd also seek a second opinion from someone I considered to have good judgment, as a check on my bias. Then I would commence Operation Eat Me And Fuck Off. For the record, I don't think Goldtop was a sociopath.
It's true they're usually normal people. No one is pure evil. But I think it's a bit naive to think bullies are just trying to correct or improve their victims. We shouldn't assume it's tough love. Most of them are doing it for personal pleasure, and their motives are destructive. However, if you said ill-meaning bullies can still be useful in helping one build a thicker skin -- serving as unwitting training dummies, if you will -- I could get behind that.In reality, most bullies are just normal people who have a very different idea of what is appropriate, and attempt to rectify what they see as errors in your behavior. The amount of 'bullies' that someone has is usually commensurate to the amount of character flaws that they put on display, and their hysterical refusal to correct any of them just attracts more bullies, like moths to a flame. Far from being 'sociopathic', bullying in any social economy is a way of fixing bad behaviour. It's only seen as bad in itself by people who are immature, or just lack the ability to accept criticism. Of course, you can argue that a specific bully is off the mark, but the act itself is very healthy.
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@Outplayz
My smiley face had no relationship with the specific people/arguments in this thread. Also you know you can't stay mad at me, my fucking wardrobe leads to Narnia. No I don't need to explain wtf that means or where it came from, I've been to fucking Narnia. It made total sense for reasons knowable only to me.
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@RationalMadman
I don't see how it's humbling to have your friends tell you you're laughing at them and making them feel hurt. I can see how it's good for you to realise you to it though.
🙂
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