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@Lunatic
Okay, here's where I'm at.
I'm nervous about the existence of a WF/Earth team, since it does seem like they're buddying a lot.
However, I'm more nervous about the roleblockers. My train of thought is this: I don't believe that there would be just 3 Town roleblock-capable roles AND a Town Strengthener, and I think 4 roleblockers (3 Town, 1 Mafia) is crazier.
The idea is, if all the roleblock-capable are Town-aligned, then there's not really a good reason to have a Town Strengthener, is there? So my thought here is that either a Roleblock-capable role or the Strengthener must be Mafia.
That leaves me with a pool of Banana/Lunatic/Moozer.
If I assume that Banana is incapable of playing the claim like that as wolf (which everyone- except Pie?- seems to agree with, as far as I can tell),
And I assume Lunatic wouldn't be death tunneling like this as a wolf (which is iffy but WF as target of the tunnel seems to think it's villagery),
Then I'm left with exactly Moozer.
@ Lunatic my POE is practically the opposite of yours, so I want to know where you think the flaw in my chain of logic is here. It feels solid, but I am making some assumptions. Which do you think are bad and wrong?
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@ILikePie5
Huh. Is that vote a scumread or was I saying something wrong or are you agreeing or...?
Just to be clear, it is an Innocent Child you can activate at will, right? Let's see,
Vote me and unvote if that was an actual scumread on me and that was what you meant.
Vote Lunatic and unvote if it's an Innocent Child that can in fact be activated at will. (At Night, I assume? I've seen versions that can activate at Day, but the fact that this hasn't already happened suggests to me that isn't the case here.)
Vote Earth and unvote if it's an Innocent Child that has some restriction on use.
Vote WF and unvote if it can be activated at will but you're worried about that plan because it can get roleblocked or have some other malfunction.
Doesn't hurt to be crystal clear.
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@Casey_Risk
Oh my, the fabled triple mention.
every night the Dreamer will dream of three other (randomly selected) players. At least one of the players in the dream will be scum.
an altered version of the role. He picks three people to target and learns how many scum are in that group of three.
That sounds like an entirely different role, though? One is passive, the other is active.
...Am I getting hung up over a pointless distinction? Possibly.
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@ILikePie5
Oh, well that's... remarkably simple. In that case, do we let Pie go here and just lynch him tomorrow if it doesn't go off?
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(As an aside, I've never actually heard of Dreamer as a role before- is the name supposed to mean you think of them while you sleep, or something?)
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@ILikePie5
This is going to be a little bit messy, huh?
Pie, if your role gives items like Owen's, vote Moozer and unvote.
If your role is confirmable in some other way, vote yourself and unvote.
I think my question about being passive at Night was ambiguous- if your role impacts or is impacted by players who target you, vote me and unvote.
If your role only does something after you die, vote Casey and unvote.
If your role is something you've never seen before, vote WF and unvote.
If your role is completely useless or negative utility, vote Earth and unvote.
Again, if it's multiple, do both/all.
(Also, if anyone else has suggestions on what broad sorts of categories I should check, I'm all ears.)
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@ILikePie5
Sigh. I suppose we won't be able to recreate my most legendary post of all time. I'll try not to clog up thread too much, here.
Considering you're a lynch option, let's talk your claim and at least try and get a vague sense of it.
I assume you're not investigative, because you haven't voted WF (and I find it difficult to believe there would be 3 Investigatives). If I'm wrong there and you're Investigative, vote and unvote WF.
If you're some sort of Protective role, vote and unvote Banana.
If you're some sort of Killing role, vote and unvote me.
If you're something that does something at Night passively, vote and unvote Lunatic.
If nothing I've said covers your role, vote and unvote Earth.
This is your main role, not your legacy, to be clear. If it somehow fits multiple of these, do both/all of them.
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@Earth
@whiteflame
I feel like I'm missing something. Why is Earth semi-clear, here?
The early Miller claim still has me townreading him a bit. I guess he could have guessed at the existence of an alignment investigative role (they are common and this game almost seems to invite both such a role and a tracker role, given the nature of incidents like this), but I still think it's riskier than I'd normally see from him. (WF)
I distinctly remembered that we had disagreement about whether or not Earth would do this in Day 1, and...
Earth's the type to do big risk plays even when they seem unnecessary. My experience with him as scum makes me a little nervous of his claim, but not enough to solidly scumread it, mainly because of the incident and justification. I buy that he could play the Miller card really early, I don't buy that it would be that good of a connection if he did. (WF, post 98 of Day 1)
So is Earth the type to do it or not?
I just don't think "He claimed Miller early" is a solid enough reason to leave Earth alone at this point in the game. Can you elaborate for me on why he's Town?
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@Earth
@ILikePie5
thoughts on Pie pls
Years ago, I was in a very inactive Mafia server. We had maybe 6-7 regular players and it was set up for quick (as in ~1 hour total) games. One of the setups we had was called "Gunsmith-Silencer." It was a 4-player setup with 2 Citizens, a Gunsmith who gave a day-shot gun, and a Silencer (Mafia) who could choose to silence someone (making them vote-only) or do nothing. The game would proceed with a Night, then the Day where the player with the gun would shoot, and then there would be a lynch.
All this is to say that I have played with Silencer situations before.
My opinion is that the thread hasn't been creative or active enough with questioning Pie. If he's pretending to be silenced (and I still haven't gotten clear confirmation on if that's something he would do, although everyone seems to be assuming that), we can still get around it with vote communication. The way you detect a fake-silenced player is by refusing to let them not play the game. We hardly have any information about what Pie is thinking because it doesn't look like anyone is actively engaging with him, and for a silenced / fake-silenced player to effectively communicate anything beyond scum reads, it has to be a two-way conversation.
For instance, people seem to want Pie's claim, but nobody seems to be going to the trouble of providing multiple-choice options to try and narrow things down. It's a hassle, I get it, but if you're genuinely trying to figure out his alignment, you can't be lazy and just guess on if he's real or faking or only use his first Day to do it.
On that note, in those past Silencer games, were Silenced players allowed to post multiple vote/unvotes in a single post? If so, that hugely helps for communication. Pie, if you can do that, vote me and unvote me twice in one post. Otherwise vote and unvote me once.
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@Earth
@Moozer325
@iamanabanana
I do apologize for my inconsistency in activity, I'm multi-tabling and trying to avoid burning myself out.
I want everyone’s role outed by the end of the DP, so I figured it’d better to catch people right off the bat. (Moozer)
There's really little reason to hold back on claims tbh. (Earth)
at this point we should probably get the rest of the claims. (Banana)
Me claiming would make my role effectively worthless. Do you actively suspect me, or do you just want it for completion's sake?
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@whiteflame
...except that the lynch train had long since fallen off of Luna and Moozer remained on it just the same.
I suppose, yes. The interesting thing is that Moozer didn't bring any of this up at all when he was pushing Lunatic, right? If you think someone has a super powerful legacy role when they get chopped and that's why you're pushing them, you could just... say that, right? Ask out loud to the thread "Hey so does it look like Lunatic is trying to get himself lynched to anyone else, does he have like a good legacy role or something?"
But everything Moozer was saying seemed to suggest he genuinely believed Lunatic was scum.
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@whiteflame
but my point to Moozer was that that is an odd assumption to have for someone else's role.
It doesn't seem like a horrendous chain of logic, if I'm following right. "Lunatic looks like he's trying to get lynched" -> "Lunatic has a role that benefits from being lynched" -> "Lunatic's legacy is something that is either able to or specifically triggers after being lynched." Granted, it's not right since the first part wasn't true, but it makes some degree of sense if you perceive the first step in the moment.
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To be frank, I'm really struggling here because I don't have anyone who I solidly townread. As in, I think Banana's role claim looks good because it was presented in a pure-looking way. I think Pie's silencing is real because he seems like the type who likes to yap his head off all day and I have doubts that he would pretend to do something like this. I think Moozer doesn't fit the archetype of a newbie-ish scum player. But I wouldn't bet the game on any of those- Banana could have been coached, Pie could actually be that crazy, and Moozer could be trying to drastically shift his play compared to the last game. So clearly I need to take a closer look and figure out if I'm being an idiot or not.
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It turns out that playing Mafia at work is not conducive to having a consistent chain of thought when you can be interrupted at any moment by an urgent email.
Anyway,
I think on this site, any hammer happening in the last hour is more than justifiable. The most recent no lynch that happened was heroic mafia dp1, and no one could form a decision.Yeah again this site is not mafia scum, people don't get all of a sudden active in the last 30 minutes of the phase like they do there, and we've been bit by no lynches multiple times in the past because of stuff like this.Not to sound like a broken record here, but on this site, the risk of waiting tends to lead to no lynches. 30 minutes is different here than it is on mafia universe.-Lunatic
Point taken. I suppose I'll simply assume this is true unless someone contradicts it.
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@Lunatic
@iamanabanana
had a confirmable role, notably something scant few people have claimed to have. (WF)
But not a confirmable alignment, which we've discussed.
The alternative to me voting owen was a no lynch, which everyone freaks out about is the worst thing town can do dp1, cerulean went into major analysis of why last phase, (Lunatic)
Did you think the phase ended at XX:00 instead of XX:30? Because unless it's specifically that, then the alternative to you voting Owen there was waiting to vote.
You just saw me play as scum last game. Is my behavior in this game at all similar to that game, where I played it extremely safe every single day phase, and let town lead every single lynch on relatively safe targets to coast for a win?Being stubborn for the sake of stubborness doesn't really fit town whiteflame's MO
Calling people who know- are these accurate characterizations to typical scum!Lunatic and town!Whiteflame?
I'll add my vote to whiteflame. I don't see why he is any more special than the rest of us who have claimed.VTL whiteflame
Banana, can you give me a shout on where you're at reads-wise right now? You appear to be in lockstep with Lunatic.
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@Casey_Risk
Generally speaking, yes, that is how it works.
Very annoying, but okay. That does explains Lunatic's rationale about WF and Pie a little bit more.
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@Moozer325
Let me finish backreading and I'll collect my thoughts.
To win right now, we need a POE of 3 that contains both scum, so I'll start there.
(Also, Moozer, I forgot to ping you in my last post- read that.)
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@Earth
@whiteflame
@ILikePie5
You have stated that you have a legacy role that activates on death, likely after an NK. I know that's how my legacy role works, so I'm not sure why you'd believe that Luna could use his legacy role if he was lynched. (WF)
It could be different from person to person. Owen's legacy says "after you die," so it probably applies to both NK and lynch. Mine does as well.
And you are silenced, I presume? (Earth)
Looks like it. That would explain why scum didn't kill Pie. (WF)
That's a possible role? We allow roles that inflict vote-only here?? Horrifying, and also frankly insulting that scum didn't even think I'm that threatening.
I picked randomly from my pile of town reads because we didn’t have many claims that had night actions. (Moozer)
Moozer, who do you not think is Town at the moment? I don't feel like I have a good understanding of where you're at, and it looks like you disappeared after this post.
Also, point of clarification- is it correct that a lynch only happens if majority is reached? As in, if the Day ends and one wagon is leading, but doesn't have majority (just plurality), they would survive?
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Do we not have a report for Casey's death? The way this was phrased made me think it applies to every death.This game will have a special additional mechanic: upon a player's death, a post-accident report will be conducted to determine the cause of the accident. (OP of the signups thread)
He was also clearly the wrong choice, (WF)
Then you should have said something sooner? I thought he was scum giving up by the end. He was still up there even before you left.
Considering how little we got (the existence of a scum JOAT) (WF)
I do have thoughts about the info we get. It's possible that the information isn't necessarily based on the consensus answer, but rather the proportion of correct answers. Thinking of it this way- if we got the right answer 5-3 vs. 8-0, we might get more information from that 8-0. So it's possible that 2 could have been correct, but because only half the game was on it, the info wasn't entirely useful.
It might be worthwhile, this phase, for everyone to stack on a single choice. We let someone towny be the one to answer and everyone else bandwagons. The idea there is that either we get very useful information that confirms we were correct, or we essentially get worthless information that, at the very least, confirms the answer we picked was wrong.
He hedged a lot in his last post, saying that he saw him as town, but that he was the best of a set of bad options. (WF)
This is a very bad look for Lunatic, in my opinion. There were 40 minutes left in the phase. There's absolutely no reason to hammer that early when WF explicitly asked for more time, especially if you think it's wrong. It's just bad form.
The only option was that Lunatic was trying to draw the lynch on to him because he knew he had a really good legacy role. (Moozer)
Is this a real thought...? The legacy ability would have to be insane.
You were there IMMEDIATELY to answer how many scum were on the wagon. You don’t just let the day phase go on til 1 hour remaining and not vote. (Lunatic)
Do you need a timeline? Here's a timeline:
424 at 8:52 PM: WF says he's starting a class in "about 10 minutes" (9:00 PM, presumably) and that he'll "be on that for an hour" (until 10:00 PM, presumably)
495 at 9:57 PM: Lynch happens
504 at 10:04 PM: WF comes back
(Times are in my timezone, of course. The principle remains the same.)
There was no reason to expect to come back and see Day already over because there would have been half an hour left. WF probably already pointed this out, but I'm a bit steamed about making an honest-to-god activity read because you couldn't bother to be patient.
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Good afternoon, all. I have some thoughts from EOD, but I'm going to backread today first. I'm curious to see the justification for calling 0 scum on the wagon by Lunatic and Banana.
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@ILikePie5
@Owen_T
For me what really clinched it was the way that you went from "Pie is too aggressive" to "I agree with Pie on almost everything" without any visible progression in between. Yes, villagers can have messy thought processes, but there was nothing to indicate your perspective was changing and no real reasoning behind it. It looked like you were trying to sponge off of him without making your own reads.Looks like I'm dead. Like always, what could I have done to avoid this situation? Any advice?
...This is you outing right? You are scum? I can give you more advice on faking the thought process as scum specifically post-game if you want.
Not to mention he’s been defending you
This should never be a reason to not lynch someone unless you're wolfing. Scum can still defend Town, and they can white knight for villagers who are in trouble, yes? That's not a solid reason for Moozer to not be sussing Lunatic.
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I can also verify that Town Lunatic is a fairly strong player from the Champs game I read- which might not be a perfect indicator compared to here, but it at least shows he's able to put in the effort and put in the pushes.
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@Owen_T
Why have we forgotten about Earth
I haven't. He's hovering around in my POE somewhere, to be honest, but I don't think that the current zero votes is something that's going to change in the next hour or so.
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@whiteflame
White (Is that the correct shortening? Or do you prefer "WF" or "Flame"?), we haven't played any games together, have we? How do you have expectations about what I would be like as scum?but the continued effort on this front doesn't fit what I'd expect from him as scum.
What are your thoughts on a Scum Strengthener?
That does make sense, especially if Casey is right about Austin's design philosophy. Sending scum to roleblock city without recourse doesn't sound like a fun time for anyone, so I imagine that they would have some counter.
I still prefer an Owen chop, but in general I think Owen/Moozer wagons for today are fine. I do have some thoughts about other people's alignments depending on who flips what alignment, but I'm going to hold onto that until tomorrow.
I'm going to go to sleep soon and potentially before Day ends, so I might as well stake my vote now.
VTL Owen
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My main issue with letting Owen "self confirm" is that if it is a situation where he's scum and the invention exists, but it blows up or does something else nefarious, we won't know until Day 3 at the absolute earliest- and that's assuming the person holding it doesn't die and the fake nature of it is obvious. Sort of a life-prolonging method, potentially.
For instance, here's an ability I created a while back:
~ Special Delivery (4-shot): Target a player during the night. You will give them an item that they may use during the night, with two attributes selected from the following list. The first is what the item appears to be, the second is what the item actually does. The two attributes may be the same:
-Powerful Heal
-Basic Attack
-Roleblock Target
-Alignment Investigation
-Grant Extra Vote on next day
-Blackmail on next day
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@Earth
Admittedly, I read "I am fine with literally anyone" and saw red.
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@Lunatic
@Owen_T
I’d rather no lynch than lynch someone I think is likely to flip town. (Lunatic)
Can someone please help me understand why we have to lynch someone (Owen)
No Lynching gets us more time overall if and only if someone gets off a save and there are no extra nightkills.
In a worst-case scenario with no extra nightkills, a Lynch today means we go 7v2 Lynch -> 6v2 Nightkill -> 5v2 Lynch -> 4v2 Nightkill -> 3v2 LyLo, meaning we lose on 3 mischops total.
A No-Lynch means we go 7v2 Nightkill -> 6v2 Lynch -> 5v2 Nightkill -> 4v2 MyLo, meaning we lose on 2 mischops total. So even if we don't lynch, it still sort of "counts" as a mischop.
We could try it, but it would be risky and might also backfire depending on how much manipulation of abilities/info the Mafia can pull off.
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To be fair, there has been a lot of behavior this game that I've wanted to snapvote. But we have 3-ish hours left, and I want to believe you have a little bit firmer convictions at the moment than "Literally anyone except Banana" (I read down a little farther to see that).
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@Earth
I am fine with literally anyone.
What?? You don't have a single person you think is "solid" Town (besides yourself)?
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It is confirmable, in a way. So maybe I'll hold off regardless.
Unvote
Although a confirmable ability isn't a confirmable alignment. I've designed roles in the past that give people fake "Inventions" that blow up or don't work.
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Lastly casey feels wierd to me. I can't really pin point why, I feel like he posts a lot without actually saying anything super meaningful and blends in very easily. That is about all I can say about him. (Banana)
Might be a good call, actually? Would need to recheck Casey to be sure, but I know they haven't really driven a lot this Day at all. (And as an aside, it's interesting that this specific part of Banana's post wasn't really touched or mentioned by anyone else that I saw. Food for thought.)
By the way, it is mildly amusing to watch, but just to clarify, I'm male. Do I have a feminine posting style to you?!
The existence of 3 "role prevention" roles is definitely a red flag. It's the worst look for Owen of the three, in my opinion- "Inventor Rolestopper" is really odd, and I'm dubious about the justification as well. Yes, the plane "stopped," but that doesn't quite link to the "Inventor" aspect of it, and the idea of preventing it from happening again should be more linked to the legacy than the role itself, shouldn't it? Am I being too literal here?
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I have returned. We have... what, around 4 hours left to go?
Going to backread a bit for now.
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iamanabanana: 3 posts
I'm prepared to start spam-notifying Banana if the posting does not increase.
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@Lunatic
But enough rambling over oldish posts- Lunatic, I want to hear from you directly about this. Why was Owen so null/forgettable to you there when his primary contribution by the point of your readslist was supporting Pie and Whiteflame on the Moozer pressure?
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@ILikePie5
We can afford to get one more claim from someone.
Why specifically one? Why not both? Because if we're going to pressure both, there's a good chance both are going to need to claim regardless.
I'm considering the possibility of a Lunatic-Owen team. It's looking a little far ahead without flips, but I don't like either of them independently and there is one thing that makes me suspect it as a pairing. Back in Post 110, Lunatic forgets Owen entirely in the reads list, then drops him in null a moment later. That is a red flag to me both because forgetting to put your teammate on a list is a slip that's reasonably common (among slips, anyway), and because in my experience, wolves like to put each other in null slots.
Owen is a low poster, but Lunatic still managed to have me in lean Town and Moozer in strong Town even though we were both also low posters at the time. Is Owen that hard to read?
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But if it's a usual-ish thing, I'll withdraw on that point. I thought it was a little too specific of a thing to ask about.
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There was a Mafia with a 1-shot Redirector in Indian Politicians, it looks like.
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I agree with Lunatic. Pie has been way too aggressive. Is that normal for him? (Owen, Post 179)
I agree with Pie's reads except put Moozer in only slight scum, take Earth up to slight town, and take him down to null. (Owen, Post 212)
Someone stop me from deathtunneling this.
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It's a little worrying that I only have one person who I would actively protest a lynch against, and that's the lowest poster. I've seen at least one thing I haven't liked from... pretty much everyone else?
Can't have easy games, I suppose.
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@Earth
That's a good call- mine is on that show too.
My only advice for scum hunting would be just go with your gut. If something feels weird for someone to say, point it out and say why it felt weird. (Lunatic)
This is good advice. Obviously, it's going to take time to develop the right intuition for Mafia, but you might be surprised at how much "feels" wrong once you've gotten into it enough.
Can you ask Austin if Strengtheners can nullify the effects of Redirectors?
...Am I to assume that Redirectors are a fairly regular role here that you'd ask about this specifically, Earth?
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Is it bad that I'm trying to think of ways we could abuse that legacy by somehow following the letter without following the spirit?
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@Casey_Risk
Sorry, but what does TMI mean in this instance?
Too Much Information. Scum knows everyone's alignment, so if a player has an unreasonable degree of confidence in someone's role, it might be a sign that they're scum who already knows that what they're saying is true for sure. It's why I nudged you a bit for that early post.
To me, it looks like Lunatic is so confident in Moozer being Town- without a whole lot of basis- that he's calling Pie and Whiteflame as "scum for being wrong," in a way. Do you think that's too uncharitable of an interpretation?
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@Casey_Risk
@Owen_T
Everybody is pretty null to me. (Owen)
VTL Owen
I think you should think about this a little more. I understand you might not be the strongest player but I will force you to have some social reads if I have to.
I think you should think about this a little more. I understand you might not be the strongest player but I will force you to have some social reads if I have to.
I think this game is called Mayday Mafia because it's named after the Canadian TV show Mayday. (Casey)
It... might also just be because "Mayday" is the word used for emergency situations like plane incidents? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayday But I digress, that word is still relevant to the incident Moozer is claiming, so it's not totally inconsistent with the theme.
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@Earth
A lot of the discussion on Pie is like a back and forth on "Is Pie always this aggressive??" Which is by definition a meta discussion that I'm not going to be able to hit as hard as some of the other people here.Have you posted your thoughts on Pie yet?
Iirc, it doesn't feel too different from the Mharman push in Villainous Villains. That was also Pie hard pushing, right?
I do think it's a little too one-tracked. I don't think Owen has gotten nearly as much pressure as their post count suggests they should, personally.
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@Lunatic
I will say that I've seen Earth as scum twice, once in a game that I modded, and I don't feel like he'd be the type to claim Miller instantly, but I could be wrong. In any case, the justification checks out to me. (Casey)
Earth doesn't strike me as a risky move maker as scum, I don't think he claims something ballsy like miller. (Lunatic)
Earth's the type to do big risk plays even when they seem unnecessary. (Whiteflame)
He’d definitely do something like that lol (Pie)
Sigh.
Can someone sanity check me on if it looks like Lunatic is TMIing Moozer in this post? Seems very certain to the degree of "Moozer is so town that Pie and Whiteflame are scummy for pushing there specifically." That's removing a bit of the nuance, I know, but it sounds like the general point being conveyed.
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@Earth
@Moozer325
Totally down if you want to lynch me, bud.
(Earth)
This is a little overreactive. All I said was that I thought it was overly confident to immediately peg you as Town just for claiming Miller.
landing the plane with zero casualties.
(Moozer)
Going to be a bit of a hedger here. This looks, surface-level, like a bad claim. I'm not sure if it actually fits the theme considering the zero fatalities- although I suppose it's still an "accident," and the description seems more like a protective than a strengthener. I don't want to ignore this because again, when the Tailor happened in Villainous Villains, we ignored pretty blatant hints that the role text was wrong. This is much more subtle, though, to the point that I'm not fully confident one way or the other. It might be better to try and judge Moozer on socials than the role.
Suffice to say that I would prefer a PoE lynch instead of Earth,
(Moozer)
Am I late in asking what you think the current POE is?
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Tch, I haven't been up to my usual standard. Too distracted. I'll be getting to responding to a few things now- and I suppose it might as well be in multiple posts.
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@Casey_Risk
How confident are/were you in this, by the way? It made me squint a bit because it looks too sure, too fast.Earth is town for that immediate Miller claim.
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