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@oromagi
The problem with your argument is that global warming simply does not exist in the media without the corresponding alarmism.
It's fuel for corporate media and politicians.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
hmm if it's free that means free room and board, no need to work, party etc, people go to college for those reasons now and even graduate. If they fail you think they will pay it back? How long would that take? How about the expense to collect that money if they don't willingly pay it back? Sue them in court for it? Do you see how costly that would become?
This is why only the government will underwrite school loans now.
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@ILikePie5
Moderate House Democrats are sounding the alarm over a Bernie nomination...
Moderate Dems in Trump districts voted for faux impeachment. They won't hold their seats no matter who gets the nomination.
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@oromagi
Climate Change ALARMISM is a scam.
Not Climate Change.
Note that Oro has an endless supply of false equivalencies and strawmen to burn.
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@oromagi
I discussed China in this forum even before GP claimed that I won't discuss China.
You apologized for China.
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@oromagi
But let’s leave that debate
Well said Greta. Well said.
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@oromagi
I also love how you equate top of the atmosphere with the surface of the Earth.
I love how you equate the surface area of the entire Earth with the surface area of Antarctic ice sheets.
I love the false equivalency arguments alarmists and Chinese apologists are also so fond of.
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@oromagi
The surface area of the Earth is more than 510 billion square meters and the surface area of the atmosphere would be far greater than that. Even so, we presently live with an total solar constant greater than that of 500 billion microwave ovens.
I can make up alarming predictions too.
I predict your arms and legs will disappear in exactly 5 years.
Unless you vote for Bernie Sanders.
I also love how you equate top of the atmosphere with the surface of the Earth.
Sounds like more of that false equivalency alarmists are so fond of.
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Oro also looks at large numbers without context or any sort of mathematical understanding. According to his source.
"Each hour 430 quintillion Joules of energy from the sun hits the Earth. That's 430 with 18 zeroes after it!"
(math does not require exclamation points unless it is to prove a point to the hysterical crowd.)
Oro's number is 4.3 x 10^20 joules per hour from the Sun.
The ice must receive 1.32X10^6 Km3 X 3.07X10^17 J, or 4.05X10^23 J just to overcome the latent heat of fusion and completely melt the kilometers thick ice sheets in the Antarctic.
Let's assume we could focus all the suns rays just on the Antarctic ice sheets with zero reflection back into space. (everyone else will have to freeze to death while Oro gets his wet alarmist dream prediction of course) let's assume the ice magically can be sustained at 32 degrees Fahrenheit without any help from the sun, which is a necessary condition before removing latent heat of fusion in ice. (every scientist knows you can't raise the temperature of ice past that in STP conditions before melting it of course)
In Oro's perfect hysterical world, it would still take 942 hours to completely melt the Antarctic ice caps or about 40 days.
But we know that the Antarctic landmass only gets about 2% of the sun's rays, we also know that not all of the thermal heat from the sun gets absorbed, we know that the Sun loses a lot of its thermal power penetrating the atmosphere, we know a significant portion of that solar energy is used to maintain the temperature of the ice near 32 degrees Fahrenheit instead of near absolute zero( −459.67°F), we know that half the time of the day the Earth is facing away from the sun at any given point, not accounting for seasonal axis tilt.
So Oro's perfect hysterical world would never exist thankfully.
The application of that many thermal joules concentrated on such a relatively small landmass area in that relatively short amount of time would be more catastrophic for all life on Earth than any historical meteor strike or supervolcanic eruption science has ever studied in Earth's past.
But go on believing the political alarmists with clear agendas that claim with absolute certainty that the kilometers thick Antarctic ices sheets not only CAN melt in 20 years (an astronomical mathematical absurdity) but that it most certainly WILL melt. Not in 19, nor 21 years, but a nice cool-sounding, focus group tested number like 20.
There are worse drugs to get your amygdala high fix I suppose.
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@oromagi
GP has badly misunderstood the source and nature of the heat driving climate change, which explains his erroneous conclusions.
Oromagi has decided to conveniently ignore the amount of thermal heat needed to completely melt the Antarctic ice sheets to satisfy the prediction of climate ALARMISTS - namely the prediction that the sheets will melt in 20 years. The amount of thermal heat the sun would need to apply to do that in the very very short span of 20 years, (a politically expedient prediction as it is long enough timespan to keep pushing the narrative and short enough to scare the ignorant masses into hysteria) would most certainly roast the entire planet which did not have kilometers deep ice sheets. KFC extra crispy.
Oromagi is an alarmist apologist and probably brainwashed to trust political authority, not science and thermodynamic equations.
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@oromagi
You fall into the same trap as all hysteria junkies.
Falsely correlating legal and illegal immigration.
Falsely correlating climate change and climate alarmism.
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@bmdrocks21
It's scary when a normal human brain cannot distinguish between a concerned leftist and a creative troll.
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@ethang5
@bmdrocks21
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@oromagi
That some people concerned about the problem are inefficient at problem-solving does not serve as proof that the problem does not exist.
Fake concern over politically useful alarmism is of immense value to a politician. The same politicians inevitably fly back home to their 30000 KW/Hr oversized homes, laughing in cigar smoked filled rooms, personally feasting on the palpable CO2 while pondering the limits of the lack of agency and the lack of rational oversight from a willingly frightened populace suckling on the teat of corporate MSM with the slow, steady IV drip of political CNN propaganda satisfying the amygdala.
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That some group of people is only responsible for one quarter of the problem does not serve as proof that the problem does not exist
Alarmist predictions should not exist. Especially ones used by politicians to gain wealth and power using fear to control the dumbasses.
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24% of the total contribution could represent as much as 60% of the required change.
You don't understand basic math. As the USA lowers emission rates and China, India, and Africa increases emission rates, the net effect is a global rise in emission rates because China, India, and Africa are increasing CO2 emission rates much faster than the USA can possibly hope to lower their rates.
2030 UN estimations put CO2 emission rates at higher than 2020 even if the 15% global contribution from the USA were to drop to zero magically.
The American-centric view that ONLY America can change the climate is a narrative spun uniquely by politicians and virtue puppets and by no actual scientists.
Politicians in America and the EU clearly do not personally believe a single alarmist theory or they would have already declared war on China, India, and Africa to protect their own interests in "saving the planet" before 2030 inexorably rolls around.
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US commercial interests have more influence in China than any other international lever.
The USA has zero methods to prevent China from becoming a 40% global emitter of CO2 by 2030.
The UN has zero methods.
Greta has zero methods.
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@oromagi
If GP does not trust his sources regarding climate change...
I don't trust alarmists. Especially political alarmists.
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@oromagi
Who is the "they" that won't discuss nuclear power or China?
You, and Greta.
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@ILikePie5
Well yeah, of course. Humans have a creative way of taking garbage and making something useful out of it. Most of civil engineering consists of the construction of buildings to combat the adverse effects of climate. People can make buildings way faster than nature can change, barring an asteroid impact or volcanic burst. There will always be ways for humans to creatively produce food regardless of how many ecosystems fail.
There is a famous quote from the movie Jurassic Park.
"Life finds a way."
As proven through multiple extinction-level events from asteroid impacts, supervolcanoes, and magnetic shifts, all of which are beyond any dire prediction from "climate change"...and yet we know from fossils that life found a way.
70,000 years ago, humans survived an extinction-level event with zero technology. I am totally not worried today.
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@ILikePie5
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@ILikePie5
Do you think any of the dire predictions from alarmists might have credibility?
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@ILikePie5
Let's look at another source of heat the average person can fathom.
The Tsar Bomba was the largest test detonation of a thermonuclear device yielding 2.09 × 10^18 joules of energy.
Assuming we could somehow channel ALL that energy into the ice sheets, and knowing a steady melt would require 2.03X10^22 J per year to melt it in 20 years (this is additional energy added to the energy already applied currently from the sun)
This would require 194260 Tsar Bomba detonations across the Antarctic ice sheets over 20 years.
9713 Tsar Bomba detonations per year, or alternatively,
27 Tsar Bomba detonations per day for 20 years.
At that point, we should see a steady rise per year in sea levels of not a mere fraction of a millimeter, but 6.6 inches rise in sea level every year for 20 years.
If that amount of thermal energy was distributed evenly across the globe over 20 years, Sea levels would be the absolute LAST thing you would be worried about.
And yet, we are supposed to take alarmists seriously?
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@dustryder
Thanks for your predictable kneejerk contribution.
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@ILikePie5
I learned a bit about thermodynamics at Naval Nuclear Propulsion School a LONG time ago.
The real point I was trying to make was that an application of the amount of energy needed to melt the Antarctic Ice Sheets in 20 years applied on every area of land across the globe, not JUST the Antarctic, would cause insanely far more complications for life than a simple 11-foot rise in sea levels.
Imagine living inside of a running microwave. That is what the alarmists are suggesting with a 20-year elimination of Antarctic land ice, but want us to focus on sea levels instead of seared flesh...
Literally a WTF moment for a physicist using basic thermal equations.
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@ethang5
Also, the science is hardly conclusive that there is a definitive runaway melting of land ice in the Antarctic. The changes in sea level annually are in fractions of millimeters, yet alarmists would have us believe human life will cease to exist within a few years.
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@oromagi
You don't have to be a scientist to apply knowledge about how long ice lasts in 70 degree weather.
Actually you do. You don't just eyeball values of solar joules and latent heat of ice. Anyone who lives in the north will tell you it can take quite a while for a mound of snowplowed ice to melt depending on how much ice there is in the mound, even in 70-degree weather.
And then there’s the ice. We are supposedly melting the ice; the literature is filled with papers making this claim. These papers invariably whine about human activity warming the planet, but they never seem to get around to discussing how much energy is actually required, or how it gets to the ice. But do humans really generate enough energy to melt significant amounts of ice?
How much energy is needed to melt 1.32X10^6 Km3 of ice?
It takes 333.55X10^3 J to melt 1 kg of ice.
Doing the math, we see it takes 3.07X10^17 J to melt a cubic km of ice. This is our basic unit of heat energy for melting any large amount of ice in Antarctica, or anywhere else.
We have determined how much ice is involved in an 11-foot ocean rise: a volume of 1.32X10^6 Km3. To melt it, the ice must receive 1.32X10^6 Km3 X 3.07X10^17 J, or 4.05X10^23 J. This is true regardless of what process gets the heat to Antarctica. A steady melt would require 2.03X10^22 J per year to melt it in 20 years, or 8.1X10^21 J per year to melt it in 50 years.
We can argue until the cows come home about how that much heat can reach the glaciers. But for our nontechnical friends, it’s interesting to compare the energy requirement with how much energy humans produce. In other words, if humans set out to deliberately melt the Thwaites and Pine Island Glaciers in the Antarctic, could they even do it?
Well, let us see!
According to the US Energy Information Administration, in 2016 the world produced 84.412479 quadrillion (84.412479X10^15) BTU. That converts to 8.906X10^19 J, consisting of fossil fuel (the largest component), nuclear, and renewable. And if we used all of the world’s energy to do nothing but melt the ice, we could not do it in 20 years, or even in 50 years. We could do it in about 4,500 years.
That kind of heat to melt that much ice in 20 years would also require a significant increase in solar joules, one that would cause temperatures to rise far above 70 degrees F.
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@oromagi
Right.
Our 15% still isn't worth a tick on a tit when it comes to global environmental engineering.
Americacentrism and Eurocentrism are still unjustifiably strong zeitgeists in academia.
The conversation about climate change is overwhelmingly dominated by Chinese, Indian, and African apologists as clearly evidenced by the response above.
In fact, the UN seems to be just fine with calculating a predicted 35-40% contribution of global CO2 from China as emission rates inexorably rise in China while falling in America and the EU. It's as though there is nothing we can do about it (because the truth that we really can't isn't something the public wants to hear from politicians)
Instead, it's the same old garbage from the same people with the usual suspects. That climate change is an existential threat, and only Americans have the power to do anything about it. Neither of which is true.
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According to the EPA, the USA and EU contribute 15% and 9% respectively to global CO2 emissions.
Just like alarmists are not actually serious about the Global Warming scam because they won't even discuss Nuclear power, likewise, they won't express an ounce of concern for 75% of global polluters.
Thunberg NEVER uses the word China, or India....ever.
And yet there are some super brainwashed people out there in America that think our measly 15% actually is going to "save the planet" should we destroy all CO2 in America.
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@ILikePie5
I'm so sick of what the government says I can or cannot do with my own money.
It's not like abortion where the baby has no say in the transaction.
People can choose to either take my money or choose not to. Why does the government need to get involved?
I went to a convenience store a year ago and tried to buy 4 dollars worth of junkfood on a debit card, and the store refused my money citing a 5 dollar minimum purchase. I left the junkfood on the counter and walked away, I didn't fucking call my congressman!
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@ILikePie5
You know, it was sad because many on the right were silent about the judicial railroading of Trump's associates because they believed in 2016 that the judicial system was fair, and that they would get the people on the left too.
2020, we know better.
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@ILikePie5
2 tier justice system depending on party affiliation.
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@ILikePie5
Democrats. Jailing and impeaching political opposition since 2016.
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@ILikePie5
Imagine if Richard Spencer was the foreman at the OJ trial?
I am pretty sure Clinton would have had an opinion about it.
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@ethang5
No. I want the same system we had before TDS, where a person is innocent until proven guilty.
That won't happen until the MSM is no longer a branch of the government.
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@ethang5
please provide evidence that the president is supposed to control inividual cases at the justice department. Otherwise, please just stop repeating yourself.
There is a huge recent example of the Executive branch directing the DOJ.
I can give you hundreds more about Executive discretion where it involves the execution of laws.
SCOTUS has upheld this power many, many times.
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please provide a link to a source saying it is normal for a president to order the AG to lower the sentences for his friends.
Presidents are responsible for executing laws. This means if Obama did not enforce laws he did not like such as deportation laws, he is just being a poor president, not a criminal one.
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@ethang5
The United States Department of Justice (DOJ), also known as the Justice Department, is a federal executive department of the United States government, responsible for the enforcement of the law and administration of justice in the United States, equivalent to the justice or interior ministries of other countries.
It's so sad how left snowflakes can't be bothered to wiki basic civic concepts about how the government works.
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@ethang5
So do their Muslim brothers in Egypt. Do you know why? They are walled into an open air prison because they behaved like criminals, bombing and killing innocents.
Palestinians are considered beneath cockroaches to their Arabian neighbors. Nothing more than useful idiot attack dogs.
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@ethang5
I think the Dems learned a lot from Putin on how to deal with their political rivals.
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@ILikePie5
I'm not hardcore GOP, but the vision from the Left right now is a ridiculous dystopia. I supported Bill Clinton for the exact same reasons I support Trump. I don't care what they do in their personal lives as long as they can take care of the country.
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@HistoryBuff
He is an incredibly corrupt politician willing to use the levers of power to profit himself even if it undercuts America or democracy
there is only one party at the moment jailing or impeaching their political rivals.
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lol, trump has proven ties to the russians as well as other authoritarian regimes. He is proven to have used his power to influence other governments to do things to personally benefit himself. He has brought america to brink of war only to stop at the last second. There are very, very good reasons to be concerned about Trump.
So what? It's just more fear tactics to control the population, or do you think Trump supporters have nothing to lose like Palestine?
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@ILikePie5
Absolutely. I am in Mass though so hopefully warren will drop out before.
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@HistoryBuff
no one is asking Israel to give up their land. They are asking them to return to their land and stop occupying Palestinian land.
Except an unlimited right to return is a de-facto occupation of all of Israel's land by Palestine and the end of Israel as a nation, so there's that.
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@HistoryBuff
anyone who thinks that you can force a population to submit to your rule by fear is clearly someone who has not paid much attention to modern history.
Clearly you have not been paying attention to modern MSM as the fear of Russia, Russia, Russia, and the various flavors of Orangemanbad are used to attempt to force the population into submission.
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@HistoryBuff
this is a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature. When you corner someone, that is when they fight even harder because they have nothing to lose.
Literally proven false by every nation that surrendered and signed a peace treaty.
If nations truly had nothing to lose in a conflict, then the nature of war itself would be meaningless, if not a beneficial thing for all parties.
Obviously Israel is doing something fundamentally wrong if they are unable/unwilling to take from their enemies.
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@ethang5
Wars end when there is no one left willing to fight. Removing the people who wish to fight will save the lives of the majority. Israel should make them an offer they cannot refuse, and this problem will vanish in one generation. Just like it did in Japan and Germany.
Hamas is such a tiny percentage of Palestine. When we kick Hamas apologists from the crazed ignorant, Hamas Fanclub fringe left to the curb and Hamas along with them, then peace will be possible.
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@bmdrocks21
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