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@ILikePie5
I think you misunderstood what black people want. They don’t want less police which is the result of complete defunding as preached by Alexandria Ocasió Cortez, nor do they want a partial defunding of police which reduces the number of police assets on the street. Defunding in any form leads to less police presence which black people don’t want.
again, why? Why do you think that refocusing them onto the tasks they are best equipped for is a bad thing? If they don't have to waste their time harassing homeless people they will have more time to actually do things related to crime.
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@Greyparrot
I used the term proportional government size multiple times. I don't think you understand the correlation between government size and corruption.
you're comparing apples to oranges. It is alot easier to manage a single city than it is a massive nation. Of course you can keep your government small when you only have 5 million people in your entire country in an area under 300 square miles.
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@fauxlaw
Oba'a DID tell Russia: "I can be more flexible after the election." No "almost"
ok, are you expecting me to be outraged that Obama didn't push for war? Why do you think this is a criticism?
Oba'a DID increase our national debt by more than every preceding President, combined.
Obama inherited a crisis which required spending. Trump inherited the booming economy Obama built, then Trump exceeded the deficit spending by Obama with massive handouts to the rich.
Oba'a DID NOTHING when our embassy in Benghazi was attacked, and had an ambassador murdered, and blamed a video. No "almost" there.
lol I will never understand why the right is so obsessed with Benghazi. Why do you think this issue matters?
Oba'a DID make the worst deal with Iran, guaranteeing they would have nukes in 10 years. No "almost" there.
lol because trying to get a peaceful resolution to an issue is somehow a bad thing? The current policy guarantees Iran will get a bomb. Sanctions can slow them down, but they won't ever stop them. The only way to stop them is through diplomacy. Which trump has made completely impossible. Trump has guaranteed Iran will have nuclear weapons.
And even if I agreed with your criticisms of Obama (which i don't), that isn't a defense of trump. He has done much worse than pretty much all of this stuff. I mean he's only 1 term in and he has done way, way more stupid shit than obama did in 8 years.
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@Greyparrot
North Korea's regulations don't care, as is the case with every bloated and corrupt government that is TOO BIG.
the size of the government is not the issue. it is the tyranny and lack of representation.
If you care about government corruption, you should be concerned about the size of that government. There really is no "upside" to having a large, corrupt government.
there are tons of benefits of having a large government. That is why we need a big government, but also be vigilant about fighting corruption.
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@Greyparrot
, or we need to let a single monarch run everything.Singapore isn't run by Monarchs. It just has a small government and is also the least corrupt government on the planet.
no, you used north korea as an example. They do have monarch running the government.
Also, singapore is fucking tiny. You are comparing the running of basically a city to the running of a massive country. Those 2 things are very, very different.
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@fauxlaw
All the above are media talking points you are superb at parroting, but not a single point is documented by a source. Cite your grievances, or shut it, because it is all sound and fury.
Trump and his family have numerous sources of corruption going on. trump has rerooted government personell to stay in his hotels and resorts. He tried to force a G7 summit to be at his resort. There is a huge pool to draw on here.
He almost triggered a war with Iran. By his own admission he ordered an attack on an iranian military base that would have been a declaration of war and only called it off at the last minute.
And if the "massive giveaways to the rich leading to record deficits," [what record deficits, because the only record here belongs to Oba'a?]
obama inherited an economy in crisis (caused by a lack of government regulation), as a result he ran deficits. Trump has massively ramped up deficit spending since taking office despite inheriting a booming economy from obama.
Not to mention, please provide an explanation why all those things you parrot have affected you, but not me?
your question seems to highlight a key difference between us. I care about the entire country. You seem to only care about yourself. As long as you are fine, you don't care if trump is shitting on everyone else. But that is a trend i have noticed among republicans.
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@Greyparrot
why do you you assume that "economic freedom" is inherently a good thing?I suppose there are a good number of North Koreans that feel this way too.
And there you go with your all or nothing answers again. Either we need to let oligarchs run everything, or we need to let a single monarch run everything. The real answer is we need a combination of the private market (which drives innovation and profit but doesn't give a shit about people or the public good) and government regulation and assistance (which does care about people and the public good, but isn't great at driving innovation).
Either extreme is super flawed and causes lots of problems. You need to combine them to get the strengths of both.
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@fauxlaw
Over the last four years, please define specifically how your legs have been cut off, because the same policies of the last four years will continue.
rampant corruption, gross incompetence, near runs with wars (iran), gutting of regulatory protections, massive giveaways to the rich leading to record deficits, colossally fucking up the response to Covid, sending in shock troops to attack protesters etc.
Simply put, I am better off now than I was four yeas ago after Oba'a/Biden concluded their attempt of fundamental change of America.
maybe you are, but america is not. It is much worse off.
The mantra is you hate Trump, but you mantra finishes without any explanation whatsoever. You're not thinking if you don't have an answer.
i do have an answer. All of the above and much, much more.
No, you media heroes don't say why, either. Care to think for yourself, for oncer?
are you kidding? There are hundreds of terrible things trump has done or screwed up. There are many, many reasons why the majority of the country does not want him to be president.
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@fauxlaw
"I hate both, but biden is the lesser evil"You then said you would hate to have to say Biden is better? You just did, just as I predicted.
The answer was kind of a joke. I think both biden and trump are terrible. But Trump is more terrible. So since I don't like Biden, I don't want to say he's better. So I will phrase it as trump is just worse so I don't have to say that.
It's like choosing between getting punched in the stomach and having your legs cut off with a chainsaw. With biden, it will hurt. It will be uncomfortable, but we will be fine. With trump, we could very well die. And even if we don't, the damage will be considerable.
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@ILikePie5
81% of black people want the same amount of police or more police. Just want to leave that here.Getting rid of police officers isn’t popular in America for some reason.
of course not. And almost no one is advocating for getting rid of the police. Defunding and abolishing are not the same thing.
That's hardly a surprise given the integral role in society they play.Glad to see you don’t support defunding the police!
you clearly don'y understand. I don't want to get rid of police either. I do think they should be defunded though. But that means refocusing them on crime and away from things they are not suited for. IE mental health issues, homelessness etc.
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@Greyparrot
Read this chart. Countries with small proportional governments also have less corruption.
why do you you assume that "economic freedom" is inherently a good thing? Freedom on it's own is not inherently good. If people were free to murder you, that would be a bad thing.
It looks like this is a right wing think tank ranking countries based on how much power the rich have to run everything.
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@Greyparrot
Corporations and government don't have to be so intertwined.In a smaller government, they wouldn't be.
why? just because you made the government smaller does not mean it wouldn't be run by oligarchs. It would just mean that more power would be in the hands of the oligarchs directly and less power would be in the elected officials they bribe. You are just handing that power to them directly.
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@MisterChris
Lol we've just about summed up the 2 sides. "I hate both but Trump is better" vs "I hate both but Biden is better"
lol i guess so. I'm prefer to phrase it as "I hate both, but biden is the lesser evil". I would really hate to have to say the words that biden is better.
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@Dr.Franklin
do you understand what i am trying to say? it was A LEADER, it would be like if Trump endoresed the KKK or was a neo nzai, it is the TOP that determines a movement
what? BLM is a movement with millions and millions of people in it. 1 of them might be a marxist. That does not say anything at all about the millions of other people.
no there are not tens of thousands of racist and bad cops, there a few and thats IT!
I saw videos with dozens, if not hundreds, of cops abusing protesters over the last few months. So "a few" is a massive understatement.
police are trained by the government and do a great job 99% of the time, I agree that there is some issues but theres issues in everything, defunidng and shaming them will not work
why would defunding them not work? You take away the funds that they no longer need because they are doing less tasks. If they stop being sent to do stuff they are not equipped to do, then they don't need anywhere near as much money.
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@WaterPhoenix
no they're fighting so that black people are on an equal standing ground. they're trying to make the outcome equal, always equal.
what? by trying to make police stop beating black people and trying to get black people a decent education?
this is why there are merit scholarships
so your argument is that dumb rich people should be able to get into any school they want, but talented poor people should have to fight over a tiny number of scholarships that likely still won't be enough to get them through? Really?
and it is completely 100 percent worth it. if i had rioters came to my neighborhood and burned down my house i'd bomb every single one of them.
this is kind of part of the problem. Instead of trying to deal with the issues causing anger and violence, politicans have just dumped more money, guns and tanks onto police in an effort to suppress the angry people. That is a recipe for more and more violence.
however, if an area has more crimes commited by black people than white people i would trust a white person there more than a black person.
tons of studies have shown that crime is directly tied to poverty. So when the system suppresses black people and keeps them in poverty, it causes crime. You then blame the black people for that crime. It is a vicious cycle.
you statement of "no one has ever questioned if white lives matter" is very false, many white people have been persecuted for either how they look, their religion, or the race and background.
lol you show me the white people in america who are discriminated against for being white. For every case you find there will be dozens of cases of black people being discriminated against.
i feel my ideology of, "black live matter is a idiotic organization and should be stopped" isn't just my idea, and that many people think this. if they say it though they will most definitely get banned from wherever they said it. if i said "we should stop blm" in my school i would most defniitely get a suspension at the least.
the people who say that are mostly racist assholes. And saying that black people should be banned from fighting for their rights would probably get you suspended from lots of places. But that's because it's just a little bit short of going around in a white hood and burning crosses.
these people want to enact communism, anarchy, and want to defund the police.
they do not want anarchy or communism. You could probably find some examples that do, but the overwhelming majority don't want that. They do want to defund the police, but that just means taking funding from police and giving it to other services better equipped to handle tasks. For example homelessness. There is no reason police should be handling that. So why are we paying men with guns to handle homelessness? They are not equipped or trained to do that. It is a massive waste of money.
this police response is laughable, they call in the national guard, yet seeing as these riots are still happening, the national guard has a done a grand total of nothing. all these "heroic" photos circulating around of black people carrying other black people after police have tased them of some shit to the hospital fail to understand that these people are RIOTING ok? do you understand what that means? destruction of private property and general complete anarchy. god knows how much billions in damage that guy who got pepper sprayed has done. if i'm being honest though, the police probably will be defunded. trump hasn't really made a move on the protestors cause if he does he won't get elected for sure, but if these riots continue the police will probably be defunded.
holy shit this whole thing is nuts. The vast majority of the protesters are peaceful. There are some who were violent. Although some of those were white supremacists trying to start shit and blame BLM.
The police and Trump's shock troops started attacking peaceful protesters. This led to significantly increased violence. Because if the cops are going to attack you, why would you not fight back? Then right wing people point to the violence the police are fueling as evidence the police need to use more violence. It is insane.
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@MisterChris
I agree they are both trash candidates. However I struggle to imagine a candidate that would be more trash than trump. I mean, I guess if he were a cannibal that would be worse...
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@Greyparrot
You know, the sad fact is that you're never going to destroy the monopolies of the rich without taking out their copartner...the monopoly of the government.
this doesn't even make sense. Corporations and government don't have to be so intertwined. The way to fix the issues is to cut those ties, not to destroy government. Put in rules restricting lobbying. Ban donations to political campaigns. things like that. If companies have no way to bribe politicians, then it stops being profitable to ignore their constituents and just do what the rich people want.
Right now the Marxists are the only ones in a position to actually threaten the power and the size of the entrenched massive government, since the Libertarians failed in their 1990 coup attempt.
there are no marxists (barring a few extremists). No one is advocating for the government to take over all businesses. So why do you keep repeating this obvious lie?
Just look at all the exemptions large monopolies continue to accrue recently. This shit is out of control.
I agree. the establishment of both the republican and democratic party rely on money from the 1% to run their campaigns. They use them to make tons of money in shady ways. So both parties pander to the rich constantly. That is why we need a populist left to advocate for the working class, because no one else is going to do it.
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@thett3
Where should the line be drawn? Only 4% of homicides involve rifles, and "assault weapons" are a subset of rifles. To be fair, a solid third of firearms involved were unclassified but it seems very unlikely that "assault weapons" were used in more than 8% or so of firearm deaths. With this in mind, why should a responsible gun owner be prohibited from owning them? Unless you believe that all guns should be banned, which is a different debate but at least the position is consistent.
I am totally open to having that kind discussion. One where it is acknowledged that it is perfectly normal for the government to put limits on what weapons should be available. However, that isn't the sort of discussion the right or gun lobby groups allow to happen. They simply scream and cry that any attempt to limit access to any gun is tyranny and unconstitutional, when it very obviously isn't.
In my personal opinion, guns should be limited to things that would be useful for hunting. So like a shotgun, semi auto hunting rifle etc. I don't see a reason why anyone would need a fully auto weapon. I also think magazine size limits is also prudent. Set a max size for a magazine at 5 or 10 rounds. No one needs to be able to empty a 30 round mag into people.
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@Greyparrot
in what way is that marxist? Guaranteeing people a job is in no way taking over private businesses. It is the government employing people who can't find a job at a private business.
unless it is the government taking over all businesses, it isn't marxism.
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@Greyparrot
The truth is that the left wants the government to help working class people and to try to narrow the growing divide between the rich.The Radical Marxist left and the AOC Justice Democrats do, sure.
the government helping the working class is not marxism. It is only marxism if they want the government to take over all the means of production. Which AOC and the left do not want.
When Karl Marx began to hypothesize that an economic revolution would occur, one of his primary concerns was the unequal distribution of wealth. He saw a capitalist society where there was terrible inequality. A small amount of people possessed a high percentage of all the money and income. What this did was create a larger and larger poor underclass. Marx theorized that this unequal division of wealth would eventually lead to a class revolution. While Marx's revolution failed his essential problem still exists. In America about 5% of the people possess 95% of the wealth. This leads to certain problems, foremost among them poverty and income equality. All of this eventually leads to the problem of lack of spending in an economy.
ok, but in order to be a marxist, you would have to be someone who adheres to Marx's ideology for how to address that problem. IE communal ownership of the means of production. Since virtually no one on the left is advocating that, there are almost no marxists in america.
Seeing the same fundamental problem, but advocating a different solution for it, does not make someone a marxist.
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@n8nrgmi
it doesn't throw them through a loop. I have asked them on here before. They are completely disconnected. They see no problem with there being a line where you can't own a rocket launcher, but can own an assault rifle. But the second that line is somewhere they don't like, suddenly it is unconstitutional for the government to ban weapons.
They honestly cannot see how their position makes no sense.
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@Greyparrot
I never said Pelosi is a Marxist.
my apologies. I went back and re-checked. I believe I misread your post.
I only pointed out that radical Marxists have threatened her power, and continue to do so.
but you still don't seem to understand what marxism is. Please point out the people that are calling for the US government to take control of every business in america. You won't be able to because they don't exist (except for a few fringe voices).
The truth is that the left wants the government to help working class people and to try to narrow the growing divide between the rich (who own a bigger and bigger slice of the wealth), and the working class and the poor. That isn't marxism. It isn't even very close to marxism.
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@Greyparrot
solely owned by the government.A government of rich elites like Pelosi.
Does pelosi own all the businesses? No. They are privately owned. Pelosi's views toward business are fundamentally no different than most republicans. So calling her a marxist is a joke.
I'm sorry, explain to me again how every rant you go on about blaming the oppressive rich stealing from the poor isn't 100% Marxist.
those 2 things are not the same. there are lots of ideologies that are opposed to an oligarchy running things. Unless I advocate for the government owning every single business in america, then I am not a marxist. And repeating the same obviously false attack over and over is just sad.
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@Greyparrot
You're more of the cerebral Marxist and less of the violent type, I'll grant you that.
marxism requires that the means of production be solely owned by the government. I have never, and do not advocate for that. I am not a marxist. Nancy pelosi is nowhere near a marxist. She is very friendly with rich business owning people.
If you think that I or nancy pelosi are maxists, then you don't know what that word means.
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@Stephen
Then why did you even mention that this man was likened to an animal AFTER he had called these police officers "animals", if it is "irrelevant"?Your question was whether I think the police were animals, that is irrelevant.No it isn't "irrelevant". This man called the police animals. Do you agree with him?
as an outside observer? no. If i were the one being dragged away from my child, hell yes. I would say that.
OK. And do you believe this was a racist incident? If not - OR - you don't know then why even mention racism in this instance?
you've answered your own question. I wasn't talking about this specific incident when talking about racism. I have told you that several times. I don't know if racism was a factor here. It very well could be, but I don't know.
You'd like there to be. One party called another party "animals" and vice versa. So did this man dehumanise the police when he called them animals.
circumstances are critically important. If I shoot a man in the head, I am a murderer. If I shoot a man in the head who is coming at me with a knife, then I am acting in self defense.
One party in this was being dragged away so that his child's life could be ended. The other party in this was doing their job to take a man out of the hospital. The police are trained to de-escalate situations and treat people with respect. They obviously didn't treat this man with respect.
Maybe but its not compulsory. They are not in the force for another reason but to uphold the queens peace, that is their job!
i'm also pretty sure it is compulsory. As in any other job. No matter what line of work you are in, there is probably a rule book somewhere about your conduct. Calling people animals is a breach of that code of conduct.
I have never claimed that I know racism played a role here.But you didn't hesitate to attempt to inject racism into this thread. post#7
again, we were discussing issues related to policing in general, not the one case you are looking at. So yes, racism is a big issue in policing in general. I do not know if it played a role here. It might have, but there is insufficient info for me to say either way.
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@Greyparrot
In the wise words of our resident DDO Marxist,
again, you clearly do not know what a marxist is if you think I am one.
If Biden thinks he can salvage the party by appealing to skin tone, he is in for a rude dose of reality.
for this election cycle, it doesn't really matter what biden does. He doesn't need to salvage anything. All he has to do is sit back and watch trump's campaign burn. But in the larger sense, I agree. The dem establishment likes to talk about race issues, but absolutely does not want to open the door to class issues. Even though those 2 things are highly linked and the class issues are also a massive problem, they don't want to do anything that might upset the powerful corporate backers that fund their campaigns.
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@Greyparrot
Lol understatement of the year. A real Marxist laughs at you.
nancy pelosi is a neo-lib corporatist. She is nowhere near a marxist. You either don't know what a marxist is, or you are deluding yourself.
Especially the Black Elites like the black caucus Rep. Lacy Clay. Down with THOSE black-skinned people!!!
being black doesn't necessarily mean you are a good person or are part of the solution. In this case a neo-lib corportist black candidate was defeated by a progressive black candidate. That is progress.
Demokrats got rekt by Marxists
is anyone who advocates for helping the poor a marxist to you?
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@Vader
Stereotyping Republicans because one person said something, sounds like something a typical Liberal would do.
fair point. People of all politcal stripes stereotype. But please don't pretend republicans don't do this too. I mean lots of people on the right are trying to paint Joe Biden as some kind of leftist. He is about as right as you can go without being a republican on alot of issues.
Let's also make something clear. The statement itself to me, I have no issue with. I believe ALM supporters are deluded. BLM is ALM, but they believe in fighting to improve the quality of Black Lives. I have no problem getting behind the saying and the goal for BLM. There not black supremacists. I do have an issue with the organization overall
that is totally fair. To be honest I don't really give a shit about the BLM organization. You can agree or disagree with how they do things. But the BLM movement has gone far beyond that organization. When people attempt to write off a movement with millions of people in it (i'm not saying you are, just to be clear) then they are idiots.
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@WaterPhoenix
you disagree that black people should be treated as equals? I mean that is the core of their argument, so if you disagree with everything they believe, then you are a massive racist.sure buddy
BLM is fighting for black people's rights. You claimed you disagree with everything they stand for. The only logical conclusion is that you are opposed to black people being treated as equal.
did you even read what i said, i said to not give any special priveliges for anyone, be it reparations or the compulsive need for equity democrats seem to have. i'm not against letting more people get into universities, i believe what determines a persons worth is how much they can contribute to society.
but the system is designed to give a small segment of the population a huge advantage. If you go to a prestigious school because your parents have the right connections, you are extremely likely to do better than someone who is much more talented, but wasn't able to get into a top notch school because they didn't have the money or connections. So you want to judge people based on outcome when that outcome is heavily weighted to the rich and connected.
this is such blatant media propaganda, do you really think anytime police are told to get rid of a homeless person begging in a place where they're not supposed to, the police harass them? of course they would arrest them, if someone's breaking the law, arrest them.
I'm not saying they harass or arrest them every time. But they simply do not have the tools to actually help them. They don't have the training or resources to resolve the underlying problem. dealing with homelessness is not a task that police should be handling.
also, police don't have tanks, at least, my county police department sure as hell doesn't.
I don't know where you live so I can't confirm the armaments of your local police force. In the early 90's the 1033 program started. This program allowed local police forces to apply to be given military equipment. Over 8,000 police departments have used the program to get military equipment. Some things given out in this program are night-vision goggles, machine guns, armored vehicles, bayonets, grenade launchers, and military aircraft.
Here is an article on the militarization of the police.
this is the most idiotic analogy i have ever heard. all lives matter means all races get equal treatment, keep in mind not equal outcome, equal starting ground. and also keep in mind this equal starting ground doesn't mean one side has an advantage equal, by equal i mean equal equal.
ok, but when only 1 segment of the population is on the receiving end of the racism, then your response is stupid. No one has ever questioned if white lives matter. Many, many people think that black lives don't. So attempting to distract from the issues black people face is how racist people attempt to avoid the issue. Much like my example of people refusing to help the guy whose house is on fire because their house needs paint. I mean, all houses matter right?
i don't need people to support my ideology. i can believe what i want, why would i ever need them to support my ideology.
because this is a democracy. If you think your ideas have merit, then you should want to show other people why they do so that your ideas can be used. If you just shit on people then they are obviously going to do something else and your ideology will be ignored.
but when people are rioting WITHOUT MASKS and destroying private property, i get extremely, extremely, ticked. these guys are causing the death and destruction of innocent people's wellbeing and property, as well as costing millions maybe billions worth of damages. i'm not ignoring them, in fact, i am very concerned about them.
if you actually care about those things, then you should want to do something to prevent the violence from starting. Sending in goons to shoot them might (and I emphasize might) be able to suppress the violence. But if you don't do anything about the reason those people are upset in the 1st place, then there will be more violence. You are guaranteeing it. And excessive police force is only making the issue worse, since that is one of their primary complaints.
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@Stephen
Then why did you even mention that this man was likened to an animal AFTER he had called these police officers "animals", if it is "irrelevant"?
you've misunderstood me. Your question was whether I think the police were animals, that is irrelevant. The man being dragged away from his dying child so the hospital could end his child's life had very good reason to say nasty things about them.
christopher and I were having a discussion that included other things.Yes and you sprang on the opportunity to bring race into the conversation. Why?
because we were discussing events relating to police, but not precisely relating to this one case.
No, what you said was : " But calling someone an animal is dehumanizing behavior, which is common in racist people." These officers were also called "animals" was that dehumanising?
sure, but there is a massive discrepancy in circumstance. The man was being dragged away so they could kill his child (again, this is what he likely was thinking not my opinion). The police officers had no emotional stake in these events. So the man being incredibly upset is obviously warranted and I'm sure I would have said nasty things about those police officers too in his place. The police being dehumanizing to the man trying to protect his child is a very different circumstance.
I agree and this I am sure, cuts both ways under these stressful circumstances.
the police had no emotional attachment to these circumstances. I'm sure they were annoyed about having to drag him out, but no one was killing their children.
But police are supposed to be trained on how to handle this stuff.No. What the police are trained to do is uphold the law. Here in the UK is all the police have to do is up hold the Queens peace. They do not have to be lawyers , care workers, social workers or medical mediators.
I'm almost certain that UK police officers are trained to defuse tension and resolve issues without violence as much as possible. They are not trained to insult and demean people.
I too believe it maybe could have been handled a little more delicately than the abrupt manner in which it was managed. But this wasn't a racial issue as much as you are begging it to be.
you either misunderstanding me or misrepresenting what I have said. I have never claimed that I know racism played a role here. I suggested it might, but was clear I did not know. I don't why you are so insistent that my point was that this event was about racism. I never said that.
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@Greyparrot
Pelosi's fridge says hold my beer.
so because elected members of the government make money, we should instead make sure that even richer people (which you have no power over at all) have control over you instead of someone you get to elect. Because that is a logical response....
BLM's ultimate goal is to manufacture a Marxist class war while couching it in systemic racism.
both racism and the dominance of the 1% are critical problems that need to be addressed.
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@Stephen
Do you believe these officers were animals, as the man said?What kind of man wouldn't fight to try to protect his child and be with them?I didn't ask you that.
but your question was irrelevant. the man being dragged away from his dying child would certainly think they are. And I wouldn't blame him for thinking that. If they were dragging me away from my dying child I would likely think the same.
So then why at all did you leap at the opportunity to bring race into this conversation IF you don't know either way?
christopher and I were having a discussion that included other things. Not just this one incident. The comment you are clinging to was not about this specific incident.
So you are saying that the police officer/s was dehumanised
I'm saying a man was being dragged away from his child who was dying. In that situation, I am certain I would call the police nasty things too. But police are supposed to be trained on how to handle this stuff. They should be able to deal with this situation better emotionally than a man whose child is about to die.
Do you think he was being indifferent, abrupt and soulless because me and Mrs are white?
maybe. or maybe they were just dicks. Again, I don't know enough about the situation. I never said I believed this situation was about race. I said it might be a factor. So why are you still grinding on this?
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@WaterPhoenix
oh no, i disagree with all of it.
you disagree that black people should be treated as equals? I mean that is the core of their argument, so if you disagree with everything they believe, then you are a massive racist.
make everyone have an equal starting ground, if they're retarded don't give them anything to help them. college admissions are based on intelligence and intelligence alone, equity can go suck a dick.
oh god no. you can be very smart, but if you have no money to pay for university, then you are screwed. And the people who get the top jobs, usually come from only a handful of the most exclusive and expensive schools. So if you don't have the right connections and the right socio-economic background, you can forget about alot of upward mobility.
don't defund the police, in fact, give them more funding.
this is the problem though. politicians have been doing this for decades. They cut funding for other services and shovel that money onto police so they can have tanks and assault weapons. Now if there is any kind of problem, your only option is to call the police when in many cases they are not the right service for the job. So instead of helping homeless people get back on their feet, we send cops to harass them or arrest them.
this blm thing has gotten to a point where all lives matter is considered racist, we need to stop it.
all lives matter is the refrain of racists. If your house is on fire and you try to get people to come and help and they respond "well my house needs painting, all houses matter", that person is a dick. Your house is the one that is on fire. You obviously have an issue that requires attention. So every time you say "all lives matter" in response to someone saying black lives matter, you are the asshole refusing to help someone whose house is on fire because your house needs paint.
writing off millions and millions of people is stupid.this is not how logic works.
you didn't make any sense. millions and millions of people in america believe that racism is a serious issue that needs to be dealt with. You, and people like you, write all of them off as idiots and ignore them. That is stupid. they have a legitimate concern. You can disagree with how to address that concern, but ignoring them and the issue means you are proving to them that your ideology doesn't give a shit about them or the issues that concern them, guaranteeing they will never support your ideology/party.
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@Greyparrot
agree, Marxism is terrible.#defundgovernment
lol still can't talk about the actual issues and just need to distract and repeat slogans. The right is just completely void of any actual ideas. All they know how to do is cut taxes and cut services. An entire ideological wing that can only feed as much money as possible to the rich, cut off the poor to suffer and die, but still pretends like it somehow represents the people.
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@Stephen
As well as what?
as well as the other terrible things done by police, which was what I was primarily referring to. things like the murder of george floyd.
It is disgusting. And I believe the man called those officers animals too and before the officer said he was acting "like" an animal. Do you believe these officers were animals, as the man said?
the man was being dragged from the bedside of his child who was about to die. i can think of few things in life that would be more horrifying than being dragged away from your child so that they can kill your child in peace (i understand the hospital's position, I'm trying to highlight what his opinion probably would be). What kind of man wouldn't fight to try to protect his child and be with them?
In the case of these officers and the woman in particular , I am pretty convinced she would would have, she came across as rude, indifferent, abrupt and soulless. Maybe that is the stress of the job? But I didn't detect a single bit of racism. Where as it appears that you will pull racism out of thin air at every given chance.
as i said, i don't know if she is just a shitty person, or if race played a part in it. It is hard to say. I am not pretending like I know the answer to that since i don't know enough about the officer in question. But calling someone an animal is dehumanizing behavior, which is common in racist people.
Alot of time racism comes across in giving different treatment to people based on race. IE being comforting or polite to a white guy but dismissive and abrupt with a black guy. This difference in treatment then elicits a different response (ie you are more combative if you are treated like shit). The police then use that combativeness to justify them treating them like shit.
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@Greyparrot
Government is way too big if it has the resources to paint marxist state propaganda on public streets.#defundgovernment
ahh i see. so don't bother to respond to why your ideas make no sense, you just keep repeating the same slogans and nonsense. Well for an ideology that is terrible, i guess that is the best you can do with it.
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@WaterPhoenix
there were also millions of nazis, commies, and socialists who though they were doing the right thing. having more people doesn't automatically validate your side.
no one is claiming it does. But having one person say they have a specific ideology, does not in any way diminish the beliefs of millions of people. Especially considering virtually none of them have said they have that same ideology. BLM is about the rights of black people.
oh wait you were talking about the person who admitted she was a marxist, yeah no she was just slightly more idiotic than all the other people in the movement.
this kind of thinking is deeply problematic. Instinctually saying that everyone in a group is an idiot because you disagree with parts of what they say or believe is a terrible idea. This same kind of thinking helped get trump elected (ie powerful people rejected that he could win cause he's a racist dick and ignored the economic populism that was actually quite popular).
writing off millions and millions of people is stupid. The much better idea, is to try to show people why your plan will accomplish more than than the plan you think is stupid. So if you think BLM is dumb, then show why your ideology/plan can do more to help black people.
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@Dr.Franklin
he founder of a movement where millions donated to and millions support just admitted they were trained marxiststhat is plently of evidence the movement is marxist, she admitted they were trained marxists
again, one person out of millions said this. So clearly all of them must be this.... I'm quite certain there are some neo-nazi or KKK republicans. So by your logic, all republicans are neo-nazis and KKK.
answer the quesiton: does that logic apply to cops
You found 1 person out of millions who said they were a marxist. So judging all of them by that is stupid. There are thousands upon thousands of racist/abusive cops. I mean we saw hundreds of videos of police abusing protesters recently. So judging them on a wider scale is certainly warranted because of larger scale of the issue.
Also, police are hired and trained by the government. They need to be held to the highest standards. If some random person in a crowd does something stupid, that is a bad thing. But they do not represent the government. they do not have the power and authority of the government. If police do stupid shit, they do represent the government. They do have that power and authority. They therefore need to be held to a much higher standard of behavior. Which they are not upholding.
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@MisterChris
You're the one who made it about race.
so saying people coming from mexico are rapists isn't making it about race? Trump made it a bout race with his dog whistles.
As for it's constitutionality, I can't really comment because I don't know the nuances of the court case on the policy. The rest of this I have already refuted.
The police intentionally targeted minority groups. That is by definition a racist policy. They stopped them and assaulted them without any cause and without the person having done anything wrong.
Only when they aren't competing against white applicants. Yet, out of the white applicants and the black applicants they chose a disproportionate amount of black applicants, and yet they are still racist towards black applicants? It's really a nonsense argument.
you haven't shown any evidence there was competition though. Maybe they just got alot more applications from black people for shit jobs. Your stat proves nothing.
And when you drop the assumption that they are all doing manual labor (they are definitely not, we've had a black president for Pete's sake) the whole thing falls apart even further.
there are some black people who are hired for higher level jobs, so pointing to a few cases of successful black people is just a distraction. But the stat you provided does not have the nuance to be useful. It doesn't show the number of black people in positions of power. It's like saying that plantations had like 90% black workers, so clearly plantations were great places for black people to work.
Anyway, my main point with that is that if people find success running for office on the "I'm a minority vote for me" platform, then racism in politics is a very moot issue.
I think that having diverse candidates is a good thing. If government is disproportionately made up of old white guys, then it cannot possibly reflect the needs or wants of it's people. However it is also critically important to look at what the candidate believes and wants to do. Electing a black person that believes in all the same failed policies as all the other old guard neo-libs doesn't do anyone any good.
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@Stephen
Are you saying that this unfortunate incident was all about race?
sorry, no I was referring to police action in general. It is entirely possible that it had something to do with this incident as well. One of the officers yelled "You’re acting like an animal, it’s disgusting". I have to wonder if they would yell things like that at a white person for trying to stay with their terminally ill child.
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@Greyparrot
What a joke. Kids already can't go to the school the parents want to send them.
why?
The government has denied equal access to quality schools 66 years after Brown vs Board of education. Nothing much has changed.
so you think that schools and parents should be allowed to openly racially discriminate? That is the argument you want to make?
Because it's more important for violent gangs in Chicago and Antifa to be in charge of policing racism.
there is no evidence antifa is significantly involved in the protests. There is however evidence that white supremacists have been going out and starting violence to try to blame BLM though.
Pelosi's fridge seems heavy.#defundgovernment...
this doesn't even make sense. So an elected member of government makes enough to buy food, somehow that means we should cut off all government services and give up all power to corporations and billionaires? Are you under the impression that makes any sense?
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@Dr.Franklin
that was a co founder OF THE WHOLE MOVEMENT
your point is? It is a massive movement with millions and millions of supporters. You think that the opinions of one person automatically invalidates the views of millions of people?
also does that logic apply to cops?
groups should be questioned based on what they do as a group. One member of BLM said in an interview once she was a marxist. There is zero evidence that the movement is marxist.
Cops harass and attack people of color all the time. It is not a rare or isolated thing.
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@Greyparrot
i'm not really sure that any part of that was a response to anything I said. It seems to be an attempt to re-frame a conversation about domestic racism into a conversation about trade policy.
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@Greyparrot
if the Government had only one job, protection, then they wouldn't have the opportunity to be racist.
they also couldn't do anything about racism either. And since police are presumably the job of "protection" that you are talking about, they would still be in charge of this kind of racism. So you don't really seem to have a relevant point.
it could fund a bare minimum government which isn't capable of helping anyone.Or capable of hurting anyone.
ok. and children won't get to go to school. And corporations will be able to pollute our country. And the rich will will have absolutely no counter weight to their power. Just because you take power away from an institution that you have some level of control over, does not make that power disappear. You simply lose control over the people who gain that power.
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@Dr.Franklin
they are legitimately trained marxists, they just admitted it!
lol one person said something you don't like, so millions of people should be ignored. That sounds like a republican talking point.
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@MisterChris
No, he didn't say all Mexicans are rapists. He said rapists are coming through the southern border illegally, and that is true.
ok, but that's a bit like screaming "Teachers are rapists!!!". There are teachers that are rapists. Most are not. So saying it is extremely inaccurate. And making it about race makes it extremely racist.
No, the policy was not made or aimed at harassing people of color. It was created to save lives.
it was made to unconstitutionally search and harass people. It was targeted at minority communities. Therefore it was a policy designed to illegally harass minorities. Forgive me for not cheering for the government violating the constitution to target people of color for harassment because they thought they knew what was best for them.
Let's assume all of them were janitors for a second. You're telling me racist people in power want to hire a disproportionately high amount of black janitors? You're really reaching here bud. If they were racist, they may hire a proportionate amount of black janitors, but disproportionately high? You can't be serious.
i don't understand your disbelief. Racist people are fine with having people of color doing manual labor. In fact, that's kind of where this all started, white people importing black people to do manual labor.
Anyway, when the sole platform of many campaigns is "I'm a minority vote for me," I think you're out of the loop on this one.
100% agree. Being a minority is not a credential. I mean look at kamela harris. She is awful. She still laughs about how she tried to arrest parents over truancy.
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@Greyparrot
When the Federal government has so many jobs it can't provide adequate protection for a Federal courthouse, there is something fundamentally broken.
why? The problem is that they aren't doing one of those jobs (making sure police aren't racist, abusive dicks) properly. This requires the government to take steps to improve the situation.
taxation (which I assume you are referring to) is a function of every civilized government. No government can exist without it.it's not a main function of government though, nor is the way the USA taxes working people necessary. Nobody elects a person that promises to steal from them.
This makes no sense. Every election promise ever made by anyone has cost money. Without taxation, the government can do absolutely nothing. So without taxes, you have no government. You have no democracy. You have anarchy.
The government also doesn't need to rely on confiscatory taxes or sin taxes directed toward the man that works too much.
we can debate which types of taxes are better than others. But you appear to be saying all taxes are bad, which is ridiculous.
A national sales tax combined with partial or total user fees for services (like postage stamps and tolls for roads) could easily fund a government enough to protect the people without the oppression of the working man.
no, it could fund a bare minimum government which isn't capable of helping anyone. this would allow the rich to basically fuck over anyone they want, whenever they want and the poor die in the streets.
Another idea would be to confiscate the wealth of criminals in jail to pay for the police.
ok, but the legal system already disproportionately targets and punishes poor people. So this would basically just add on to the already broken system where rich people have no consequences while the poor are punished.
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@Greyparrot
Federal government has one main job. Protection.
no. it has lots of jobs. For example, building roads, schools etc.
Stealing from people that work isn't a main function of a civilized government.
taxation (which I assume you are referring to) is a function of every civilized government. No government can exist without it.
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@MisterChris
Racism is a campaign-killer in the US for a reason
why would you think that? trump called mexicans rapists and still won. Racism (as long as you can hide it behind a veneer of something else) is fine with alot of people.
and as for police, there is no evidence that officers target black civilians at a rate higher than their per capita crime rate.
what about things like stop and frisk? That was a policy that was almost exclusively aimed at harassing people of color. The fact that this policy was allowed to happen at all, let alone continue to be defended to this day, shows you that racist policies are not unusual.
You also ignore the fact that the US federal gov employs a disproportionately HIGH number of minority Americans:
these stats don't tell me where they work. If the Federal government hires all minority janitors that does not mean there isn't an issue with racism.
Doesn't reflect systemic hiring discrimination to me.
that stat doesn't prove that. For all I know the vast majority of those are entry level, minimum wage jobs. It's hiring in positions of power that actually matters.
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@MisterChris
As for me, I hold the position that everyone is flawed, but the system probably isn't out to get you. You're not that important.
ok, but if those "flawed" (ie racist) people are in charge of discipline, hiring and promoting, then the problem becomes systemic. IE the problem people don't get punished and weeded out. They get a free hand, if not promoted and rewarded. Thus creating a culture among police where racism and abuse is not only tolerated, but encouraged.
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