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@n8nrgmi
by saying u think he should drop out u r essentially saying u believe the accuser. it's innocent until proven guilty
I'm saying that the allegation is credible. That it needs to be investigated and it will almost certainly tank his campaign. Especially since they have proven they have no intention of actually doing anything about it. They want to ignore it and hope it goes away.
I, like alot of people, thought the allegations against kavanaugh warranted him being kept off the supreme court. These allegations are just as serious, and arguable even more credible. for people to argue that kavanaugh needed to be kept off the supreme court, but that biden should become president is rank hypocrisy.
also, if he dropped out, that would mean bernie would likely to get the nomination, and then lose to trump
disagree. Bernie is much more likely to win. Especially since no one thinks he is a rapist.
i know u like to live in ur alternate reality, but if biden got twice the vote bernie did, it's not possible more independents and conservatives would suddenly do what democrats wouldn't do
this is a much bigger can of worms, but Biden won, in large part, due to the cards being stacked in his favor. No one, especially the media, was willing to actually point out his record and how terrible it is. Independents are much more likely to turn up for Bernie than Biden.
. we need to beat trump. i know u also live in an alternate reality in thinking the progressive agenda is best served by trump winning, but all u will do is ensure conservatives win from now on.
no, nominating someone that almost no one actually wants to turn up to vote for, someone who has received extremely little vetting, someone who is now an accused rapists, that is ensuring that the right wins.
dems need to and will cater to moderates, not the far left
And this is why they will lose. The idea that there are a large number of people who exist between the far right republicans, and the right wing democrats is a myth. For every vote you get in that group, you lose 10 from people on the left.
besides, biden already has the most progressive agenda in history, and supports much of the left on healthcare and student loans and social security taxes etc.
you;'re joking right? He has promised that nothing will change under his presidency. He has a history of advocating for cutting social security. He has promised to veto progressive health care plans. He is the enemy of progressives.
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@n8nrgmi
i dont automatically trust women. innocent until proven guilty. much of the time i believe the man. plus, trump has more sex assault accusations (plus the admission on access hollywood) anyway, so if anything it's something that factors against him more than anything.
I think at this point Biden should drop out. He was already running a "lesser of 2 evils" kind of campaign. Asking people to hold their nose and vote for someone bad, because he is less bad. Now that there is a credible rape allegation against him, if he actually cares about the things he claims to care about he should drop out.
I doubt he could beat trump if the election was today. And in cases like this, there is usually another shoe to drop. Pretending like the accusation is completely unfounded is obviously a lie and will tank his campaign.
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@Greyparrot
If after you read that you don't immediately have a visceral mistrust of authoritarian governments like the one the OP advocates, then you are in the vast minority.
because trying to give people healthcare and keeping companies from poisoning you is authoritarianism? You have an extremely twisted idea of what authoritarianism means.
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@fauxlaw
The Trump you hate does not exist. He is your strawman.
in the sense that he wishes he had a brain? absolutely he is straw man.
Every president since Truman has promised to move the US Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv. Every one. Only one did it: Donald Trump
because the rest of them wanted to placate Israel but also realized how stupid it would be to do it. Trump was the only one stupid enough to do it.
No Democrat or Republican President dared meet NoKo face-to-face until Trump did. That’s how diplomacy starts.
All trump did was legitimize Un. By givning him a meeting with the president of the US, he gave him a stronger position. Trump then got absolutely nothing out of those meetings. All he did was strengthen North Korea, and he did it to try to get attention.
No President, Roosevelt through Obama, Republican or Democrat. Passed a tax cut package the size of Trump’s. His corporate tax cut was 43%, largest in a century. That’s historic enough for me.
Corporate tax cut, that isn't what you said before. Nice moving the goal posts.
What? You’re not a corporation? That’s on you, Buff.
ah republicans, they love to make the rich richer, then spit on people for being human.
Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act, under duress as a Southern Democrat facing loss of the South for his party, but my factoid was Black unemployment. NMo modern president since Roosevelt, at least, has achieved the unemployment rate reached by Trump
ok, but that unemployment had nothing to do with trump. He inherited a booming economy, which lowered unemployment. If the bar for "what he achieved" is being in office while good things happen, then a house plant would have the same achievements.
Carter’s Iran disaster was legendary. You suggest Oba’a made a great deal. He sure did; it ensured Iran would have nuclear weapons by 2025. Read the Deal? No? I did. It’s a disaster, caving to Iran in addition to giving them $1.3B plus $400M in cash.
lol i love how republicans say that as if it isn't returning stolen property. That money was Iran's money the whole time. The US stole it after their puppet dictator got overthrown. And tearing up the deal doesn't prevent them getting a nuclear weapon. It has only accelerated it now that they can begin working on it.
As for the deal itself, it took all of 3 months, from July to October, for Iran to begin violating the deal, multiple times
where in that giant wall of text does it say that?
Oba’a economy was so recovered that he never achieved a greater quarter-to-quarter growth rate above 2.5%.
I can't read the article without a membership. But a quick google search tells me your stat is wrong.
His economy was so recovered, he lost our AAA credit rating for the first time in history in 2011, costing us billions in new interest payments on the debt, and affected the world market downgrade.
yes, he inherited an economy in crisis from his republican predecessor. He then turned it around. Trump inherited that booming economy.
None of these highlighted presidents did anything that Roosevelt didn’t, but Trump did, as I said. I’ve cited the evidence. Cry me a river.
you have misquoted or misunderstood the evidence you have cited. But that is pretty much par for the course for people who think trump is, in any way, competent.
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@ILikePie5
Lol the people of the moral high ground have fallen to the level where they’d support a rapist just because the other dude has raped more people.
1) as i keep telling you, i don't intend to vote for biden.
2) if the only options available are rapists, then it ceases to really be a factor.
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@ILikePie5
Lmao so you’re gonna vote for a rapist. Nice. Per your morals rape is bad. Says a lot about your morals if you vote for a rapist after believing all women.
assuming the candidates are trump or biden, it is impossible to vote for someone who hasnt sexually assaulted women. At least biden doesn't have tons of sexual assault allegations.
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@ILikePie5
1) trump has countless accusations of sexual assault. so if that is important to you, you should seriously think againNever said it was. I’m not on the BelieveAllWomen train, you are.
i know. you're on the "believe the rapist when it's politically convenient" train.
2) i don't support biden.Nevertheless you’re going to vote for a rapist cause Orange Man Bad. What does that say about you?
again, what are you talking about. I have been quite clear that biden is terrible and I won't vote for him. And even if I would, trump has WAY more sexual assault allegations against him.
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@Greyparrot
Bernie supporters are not allowed to complain about the National Debt by definition.
there's the trump cultist answer I have come to expect. Someone makes a 100% accurate point about how bad trump is and you respond with "Ya but look at that other thing!"
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@ILikePie5
Blah blah, you’re the one that supports the rapist because your people #BelieveAllWomen
1) trump has countless accusations of sexual assault. so if that is important to you, you should seriously think again
2) i don't support biden.
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@fauxlaw
Trump did. Inside 3 years. Does he deserve 5 more, or what?
trump did none of that.
Roosevelt could have done something for Israel, like predict a US Embassy located in Jerusalem, but he did nothing.
moving the embassy was a bad thing. It makes it much harder to find peace. So that wasn't doing "something for Israel". It was fucking up even further in the middle east.
Truman could have dealt with NoKo directly
other than fall "in love" with kim jong un, trump has done shit all about north korea. They are still testing weapons today.
Kennedy could have made the largest tax cut in history
Trump also didn't make the biggest tax cut in US history. that is simply untrue. Also, it was a bad thing. He blew up the deficit.
Johnson could have have lowered black unemployment,
trump didn't lower black unemployment. He inherited a good economy from obama and then bragged about how great he is.
Carter could have told Iran where to get off,
Trump has done nothing positive about Iran. Obama started the US on the path toward actually making progress in relations with Iran, then Trump blew that up and sent them further toward extremism.
Clinton could have made a better deal with NoKo
Again, Trump has done nothing positive in relation to north korea.
Oba'a could have recovered our economy,
obama DID recover the economy. He inherited a complete mess and turned the economy around. trump inherited that booming economy.
Your entire list shows that you have no real concept of what trump has actually done. You list things he has fucked up, or at best has had little to no effect on, and claim he is a success.
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@ILikePie5
The only thing Democrats are running on is Orange Man Bad.]
his complete incompetence has cost thousands of people their lives. How else could you possibly describe that other than "bad"?
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@fauxlaw
While this never should have been a political football, covid-19 has become just another Democrat ploy to rid themselves of an effective President they could not beat with their best and proclaimed brightest, Hillary Clinton, a ploy they have redefined so many times since her losing that I've lost count.
no, Trump massively fucked up his response to one of the biggest national emergencies in recent memory. Trumpists pretend like pointing out the colossal failure (which lead to thousands of deaths) is somehow political game playing. Nothing short of complete obedience to the "dear leader" will ever be enough for trump's cultists.
Recall that Trump's candidacy was only a publicity stunt; he was never a serious candidate. He was not supposed to win a primary, the nomination, or the election, but he did all three.
true, he is a reality TV show personality with absolutely no idea how to run anything. It is good to remember that.
He was supposed to be gone in six months, one year, by midterm. He survived all three. Russia, Russia, Russia, Stormy, Avenatti, the Mueller Report, and Impeachment were supposed to rid the Democrats of Trump, but he's still here.
yes, this does highlight the complete corruption and hollowing out of the republicans. It definitively proves they have no morals whatsoever. They will say and do literally anything to protect their own power and influence.
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@Singularity
I realize he's been banned. but thought i'd answer anyway in case he makes a 2nd account.
You have failed to even acknowledge that the media sometimes sensationalizes things.
i have never denied they do that. They do that all the time. But that has nothing to do with whether the pandemic is a lie. It very, very much exists and is killing hundreds of thousands of people.
While I acknowledge every fact you bring to me.
lol you twist facts to fit your predetermined narrative. A journalist used stock footage? must be a giant global conspiracy!! It couldn't possibly be something much more rational.
Acknowledging a fact exists and then immediately twisting it into your nonsense narrative is still really intellectually dishonest.
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@Singularity
If it is overblown than you are literally siding with the conspiracy theorists who acknowledge the media is sensationalist
Danielle literally said "too soon to tell". You took that to mean that they somehow agree when they were extremely clear that you are engaging in "conspiracy theorist nonsense". Do you really not see how you are trying to twist reality into agreeing with your delusions?
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@Greyparrot
More young people die in swimming pools than from coronavirus.
The reason why it is mostly elderly and people with other health issues that are dying is because we are in the middle of one of the biggest restrictions ever put in place. The healthcare system is managing to hold on specifically because businesses were closed and people were ordered to stay in their homes. If the virus had managed to spread more (and it absolutely would have if we hadn't locked everyone down) then the death toll would be much higher. And the death rates among younger and healthier people would be massively higher.
Fucking overblown.
you have the ability to say that because the methods of controlling the spread of the disease have worked. And even then, 50,000 people are dead. This is way, way, way more destructive than 9/11. And I would hope you wouldn't be so abusive about 9/11 being "fucking overblown".
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@Greyparrot
Died WITH or died FROM the corona virus? There is a huge distinction and it actually matters. There's plenty of people walking around that might not know they have next to no chance of dying from coronavirus if they have zero other health complications.
this is just an out and out lie. There are plenty of otherwise healthy people who require hospitalization because of corona virus. The reason why most of those people aren't dying is because, due to social distancing and lock downs, the spread has been low enough that the medical system has been able to handle it.
With proper medical care and a ventilator, otherwise healthy people are unlikely to die from corona virus. But that doesn't mean 10's of thousands aren't dying already. And if trump could get his way and reopen the country, 100's of thousands more would die as the medical system collapses under the strain. And when if the ventilators run out, then the bodies will pile up much, much faster.
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@Danielle
A Trump win will ensure that no progressive legislation gets pushed through for the next 4+ years
that will happen either way. Biden has a record of pushing the republicans to the right on some issues.
and that the Supreme Court will lean conservative for decades to come
fair enough. But again, it's not like Biden would appoint any progressive judges anyway.
You can kiss goodbye any fantasy about nationalized industries (healthcare) or government mandates
Biden has sworn to veto medicare for all. So there is absolutely no difference on that point.
and you can watch civil liberties disappear in conservative states especially.
again, i really see no difference at all between trump or biden on this point.
Deluding yourself into thinking that you can somehow change "the DNC" by allowing Trump to win is just silly.
Of course we can change the DNC. If the high ranking members of the DNC lose elections, then they won't be high ranking members of the DNC. The thing they love most is power. If being right wing hacks guarantees they won't ever get power again, we will see how quickly they see the light.
It is not remotely progressive (and in fact, it is ANTI progressive) to commit to all progressive legislation being dead on arrival under another Trump term.
it would be just as dead under biden. Biden is also a corrupt, right wing candidate who hates progressives. I fail to see how it is progressive to vote for a candidate who has sworn to fight against progressive ideas.
It literally makes no sense for Bernie Bros to take some self-righteous moral high ground approach. Unless you can't bring yourself to vote for a rapist (and you believe the allegations against Biden) a progressive has no logical reason not to support Biden - especially since Biden hinted at only wanting to run for one term.
you aren't making alot of sense. You are saying that it is logical to vote for a corrupt, right wing, candidate because he is slightly less evil than a different corrupt right wing candidate. That kind of thinking guarantees that change will never happen. As long as corrupt candidates continue to win in the democratic party, then corrupt candidates are the only ones who will gain power.
If he picks Warren as VP, I will definitely vote for Biden. If he doesn't I'll be undecided, but that's because I'm not progressive.
I seriously doubt he would pick warren. He hates warren. She spent years making his life miserable while he was "the senator from mbna". He is too corrupt and hard headed for that. And even if he did go so far as to pick a progressive as a VP, it wouldn't change anything. VPs have absolutely no power in the government. And since Biden has a long history of spitting on progressives, picking a token progressive to trot out at events while he fills his cabinet with corrupt, neo-liberals and goldman sachs executives won't mean a thing.
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@Alec
My Dad is a liberal and believes in due process, both for Kavenough and for Biden. Since women who have been raped I think can better tell real rape stories from false ones, lets put 100 of them on a jury, and the top 200,000 women by vote count get believed. Thoughts?
So you want to create a jury of biased individuals to judge people? That is a horrible idea. People who have been the victim of a specific type of crime are much less likely to be objective on the subject. They are much more likely to take the side of the accuser. That would completely corrupt the judicial system.
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@Singularity
Why would it run stock footage behind a Corona virus story instead of actual footage.
there could be dozens of reasons. Maybe the hospital wouldn't let them film there. Maybe the cameraman refused to endager his life to get the footage. Maybe the patients wouldn't sign off on being filmed. etc. There are a huge number of potential reasons why they might not have been able to get footage of the events they are describing.
Hell no footage would be better than stock footage.
you don't seem to be familiar with how TV works. They need a video to run with the story. If they don't have one, then it is radio, not TV. Stock footage is used for stories literally every single day. They don't have to go out and film every event on the planet to be able to report that those events happen. The fact that you are trying to use that to justify an insane theory just further highlights that you don't actually care about reality or facts, you just want to twist reality to fit the narrative you choose to believe.
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@Singularity
You are an idiot. They said it was footage from an american hospital when it was from an italian one. Why are you okay with that lie?
A) i don't know that they actually lied. You are claiming they did without any evidence.
B) even if they did, that is not the information that is important. The video in the background is just to assist in getting the information they are saying across. If the information they are saying is accurate, then I don't really give a shit if they are using stock video in the background.
Also the word has is used as rhetoric to mean the media is sensationalizing things. Would you like to debate me on whether the media sensationalized things
The latest figures i can find is that 54,239 americans have died from corona virus. Roughly 3,000 people died on 9/11. This is 18 times more deadly than 9/11, and it is still going up. I don't watch alot of cable news so maybe they are sensationalizing. But i haven't seen any evidence of that. And with an event 18 times worse than 9/11 i honestly don't see how they could.
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@Singularity
I don't care about what makes sense at first glance.
I fully believe that you don't care about what makes sense.
I just care about what the evidence suggests
Your "evidence" was stock footage a news agency used while reporting the news. Which is something they do pretty much every day. That is, in no way whatsoever, evidence of a conspiracy.
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@Singularity
Here is another example of the news using fake footage for corona virus
ok, so they couldn't get footage of corona virus patients, so they used footage of caronavirus patients.... are you hearing how dumb you sound?
And it is irresponsible because they were clearly implying they were using footage of actual hospitals during the corona virus, that is why this stock footage was also surrounded by non stock footage. If you think that the media is always correct and has never once sensationalized anything, I'm not sure what to tell you
did using the stock footage hurt anyone? anyone at all? You are arguing that because they couldn't get the right footage, that is evidence of a global conspiracy. As long as the information they were providing is accurate, the stock footage is irrelevant.
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@Singularity
Why would they not make it obvious it was stock footage if that is the case? Does that sound like responsible reporting, to use stock footage and then try to imply it was footage of a corona patient?
in what way is it not responsible reporting? The information they are providing is accurate. I didn't see anywhere in that clip where they said "and here you see people with caronavirus" so it's not like they lied either.
You want to believe a conspiracy theory and are grasping at any straw you can to justify it. Next you'll be telling me jet fuel doesn't melt steel beams lol.
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@Singularity
Why would that mean they have to misrepresent stock footage? Hell it would be better to have a black screen and say they had no actual footage then to use stock footage and misrepresent it by lying through omission
lol you are familiar with how the news works right? they tell you the news and they show you a moving picture. there could be dozens of reasons why they wouldn't have the right footage. Human error, laziness, they couldn't get access to patients, patients wouldn't give them permission to use them, the cameraman was unwilling to risk his life etc.
All of those would make much, much more sense than the idea that every government, every news agency, every hospital in the world all know this is fake and are all lying about it.
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@Singularity
They used a dummy and claimed it was a covid19 patient
you think that because a hospital wouldn't let a news crew film highly infectious patients, that this is evidence that there are no patients? that is dumb.
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@Singularity
lol this is just sad. So some TV news agency couldn't get footage of highly infectious patients, so they cut in other footage. And you think this is evidence of a grand conspiracy.
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@Greyparrot
Now if only we can get people to stop smoking, drinking, and being 100 pounds overweight...Where is the virus to kill that?
those things kill a particular person that does them. Pollution and Global warming kills everyone. They are very different issues.
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@Danielle
Agree with the OP. Any progressive who doesn't vote for Biden out of "principle" is, most likely, an idiot.
any progressive who does support biden isn't very progressive. They are willing to continue to reward the corruption and incompetence of the democratic party. As long as the democrats can win running as corrupt corportists, america will never be able to get any significant positive change. The only way that change will happen is when the democrats learn that if they continue running corrupt corportists they will lose.
The democrats have ignored the left for decades and been able to succeed. They need to learn those days are over.
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@bmdrocks21
Do you believe that he hasn't pursued some of these issues because he doesn't want to upset special interests that would do everything they could to prevent reelection?
The reasons Trump hasn't done these things are:
1) he is wildly incompetent. He couldn't pass anything of note in the 1st 2 years when he had the senate and the house. He had absolutely no ability to get the house and senate republicans to agree on anything. He is a child throwing tantrums and not getting his way.
2) the republicans don't want to do those things. They like the high drug prices, the foreign wars, etc. They have no intention of doing anything about them. And, as per point 1, trump is far too incompetent to do anything about it other than whine and rage on twitter.
3) he has no idea how to do any of those things. The things he wants, some of which are good, some of which are horrible, he has no plan for enacting. It is one thing to say that you will build a wall and that mexico will pay for it. But reality is a touch more complicated than that. Trump promised things without having the 1st clue if they were even possible, let alone if he could do them. He made stupid, wild promises that idiots believed he would carry though on. He won't.
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@ILikePie5
I honestly think China is behind the virus. It was a gamble. They know if Joe wins everything goes back to normal and China prospers. But if Joe loses then Trump will crush them during his second term. All Trump has to do is run ads with connections between the Chinese and Joe.
this is just insane. The virus is doing more harm to the chinese than trump is capable of doing.
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@Vader
The WHO ultimately failed and covered up China. WHO covers up for China countless times. WHO is corrupt and Trump was listening to WHO.
the WHO made trump not take action when he was being warned multiple times? The WHO made trump lie about the crisis? The WHO made trump make moronic statements (like it magically go away when it gets warm)? Please stop being such a ridiculous suck up. Whether or not the WHO fucked things up. Trump massively fucked things up.
And 1 year of the Coronavirus shouldn't shadow 3 years of a flourishing economy
An economy that was already doing well when he inherited it. The economy turned around and started moving in the right direction under obama. Trump inherited a good economy and won't stop bragging as if he did something to cause it.
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@Envisage
This obscene two party system has succeeded in making the US play the stupid game, when it is the game that is bad.
i completely agree. The system has been abused by both sides to prevent the vast majority of people from getting any representation at all. Your choices are essentially "bad" or "worse". And if you choose not to support "bad" then everyone turns on you as if you are the problem. This kind of thinking has lead to virtually all politicians being corrupt and completely ignoring what most people want. They know that all they have to do is dog whistle to one or two issues (guns, abortion, gay rights etc) and then they are free to give as many corrupt handouts as they can to their donors.
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@Vader
His rhetoric is bad, but you have to look past rhetoric. He will be inflated and cocky. It's about looking at policy and frankily policy is better
the policies of ignoring a crisis, lying about a crisis, getting innocent people killed, trying to reopen the economy as fast as possible to kill more innocent people. Oh yes, the policy is great if you want to see lots of dead americans.
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@Dr.Franklin
2) trump represents the exact same rich peopleIn relation to COVID, trump is fighting for all of America
he's supposed to be. His narcissism, stupidity and greed keep him from doing so. For example, delaying badly needed emergency funding so that he can force put his name on the check.
you are essentially arguing that one rich asshole who doesn't care about regular people is better than a different rich asshole how doesn't care about regular people. It is a ridiculous point.Congress is doing nothing, Trump has a task force
lol do you honestly think a "task force" means anything? Saying they have a "task force" is what politicians say to make it sound like they are doing something, when in reality you aren't saying you've done anything at all.
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@Dr.Franklin
1)Congress is out of session until May 4th. NO ONE is allowed in or out and congress is a HUGE part of government and for Nancy Pelosi to show off her rich house for everyone while Trump is fighting tooth and nail to combat this shows a lot of ignorance by Pelosi and the Dems
I will not, for a single second, pretend that Pelosi represents (or even understands) the concerns of the poor or working class americans. She represents the rich (the same as trump does)
2) trump represents the exact same rich people
Ladies and Gentlemen- the worst speaker of the house ever-Nancy Pelosi-Criticizes Trump for not preparing for the Corona and then sitting in her huge house doing nothing with Congress and then concerend about racism
you are essentially arguing that one rich asshole who doesn't care about regular people is better than a different rich asshole how doesn't care about regular people. It is a ridiculous point.
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@n8nrgmi
conspiracy, because you think that mainstream liberals are somehow subverting the will of the people. people wanted biden, the polls should have settled it. if they supported the policies of bernie, they would have supported him.
Is it a conspiracy theory to look at what people do and say that is what they are doing? The dems take huge bribes from very rich people, then pass policies that inordinately benefit those very rich people and screw over poor people. They then spend alot of time telling poor people that the government can't give them basic necessities of life, but they absolutely can give massive amounts of money to bankers and oil executives.
This is the reality of the modern democratic party. Biden has been part of that for decades.
here is a link that says a large majority want the deficit taken care of.
that isn't what that link says. that link says that a majority (in a single weighted poll) consider it the biggest economic problem out of 4 options they were given. But it gives no implications about whether that is a bigger problem than say, education or health care.
ransom taker, because you can't get your way, so you're trying to force it down the throat of america, even when the polls and basic logic isn't on your side.
that's not ransom taking, that is democracy. If a politician wants to win an election, he needs to appeal to people. The democratic party decided under clinton that the best strategy was to appeal to the right and hold the left hostage. Give them the option of a right wing policy or a further right wing policy. The democratic establishment are the hostage takers and have been for decades now. The left is just finally realizing that the only way to end the hostage crisis is refuse to go along with their captors.
only twenty percent of bernie supporters are considering not voting for biden. not enough to change anything in the end for them, but enough to give the election to trump and the republicans for many years on end.
yes. that is exactly my point. Enough of the left are angry enough to torch Biden. That is why biden needs to actually try to appeal to them. But he isn't going to do that because he firmly believes in right wing policies. And that is why he will lose. Well, one of the reasons.
what would you think if moderate dems decided not to vote for bernie if he was the nominee, and used your 'logic' that they are only trying to get what they want in the end?
Then that would be their choice to make. Their options would be a progressive agenda that will make their lives better, or a shitty right agenda that will make it worse. If they choose to actively make their lives worse i can't stop them. But the current choice being offered is Trump (a shitty right wing candidate) or Biden (a shitty right wing candidate). Both are corrupt. Both have sexual assault claims against them. Both are clearly losing their marbles. Both have refused to fix the underlying problems in america. Why should any progressive vote for either of them? The only reasonable choice to withhold support and force the dems to listen.
If biden is willing to do that before the election, great. He could make Bernie in charge of the treasury or something. He could prove to progressives that he will do more than pay lip service to them while screwing them over. But he won't do that. Because that is exactly what he is planning to do.
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@n8nrgmi
biden had sixty percent of the vote in a match up against bernie, and bernie had thirty percent. twice as much. it wasn't a close race
there are lots of reasons we could go through over why that is. But it isn't because 60% of people want to go backwards into the corropt neo-liberalism.
consider single payer. a slight majority want medicare for all, until they hear the details. that's what ive seen in polls.
no, the majority want medicare for all. it falls to a slight majority if you explain the plan without context and frame it as if they are losing their freedom. But this is just more examples of how corrupt corporatists try to rig the system.
effectively most want a public option, which biden wants.
no. most people want healthcare at an affordable cost. Many choose to believe the corporate shills who lie and say that providing medical insurance to everyone is somehow impossible. And that if you don't include a predatory insurance industry active trying to screw over poor people, that this somehow would increase costs, somehow....
most people care about the deficiit, which bernie and the like dont ever mention.
what? since when. all the polling i have seen says that is not true. The top concern has been healthcare in virtually all the polls i have seen. And sanders polled as the most trusted on that issue.
your mistake is thinking the base is behind bernie but that somehow or another the establishment stole it from him. not true.
that isn't want i said. The base isn't with bernie. The base is with progressive policy. As shown by Bernie now endorsing Biden and the base saying "no thanks".
The establishment worked overtime to tell everyone why they can't have progressive policy. they spent the entire campaign basically telling people "suck it up and vote for someone who is going to screw you over". Unfortunately alot of people still listen to CNN or MSNBC. So when MSNBC calls bernie's plans crazy day in and day out people start to believe it. And the "moderate" plans (that just happen to make billionaires even richer) are portrayed as the "reasonable" plans.
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@TheRealNihilist
Even if this is true less suffering is better than more suffering. Biden offers that. Trump offers more suffering. By you not voting for Biden you are okay with the increase in suffering thus admitting you don't actually care about suffering.
Trump winning would be more immediate suffering for 4 years. Then potentially decades of less suffering. Biden offers decades of slightly less suffering than trump, but still alot of suffering for alot of people. If you really wanted to limit the amount of suffering, then the democrats need to reform and Biden needs to lose.
Oh wait you think Biden is lying about his climate plan and you don't actually care about people, only after 4 years of suffering and even then you don't care until they agree with you. This is selfish.
How is it selfish to want to solve problems that have plagued america for decades? Voting for biden won't do that, it will only further ingrain in them that they don't have to reform in order to win. It will put off actually fixing america's problems for years and potentially lead to an even worse demagogue when people seek an even more desperate solution to the problems democrats have caused.
Electing Biden takes away that symptom but allows the disease to continue to ravage america.Accepting this means you must vote for Biden. If you don't then you don't care about reducing harm. Your virtue signalling as if you do.
Your argument makes no sense. Going to war with the nazi's caused immediate suffering. beating them caused long term prosperity and reduced suffering. By your logic we should have surrendered to the nazis because fighting them was too much harm.
Biden is better on abortion, healthcare, gun control, trans rights, concentration camps, climate change, supreme court justices and more. Your selfish and you actually want people to suffer because he isn't doing enough of what you want even though it is better than Trump.
Biden is also a corrupt, right wing, oligarch who doesn't want to fix virtually any of the biggest problems in america. He wants to paper over them because he was involved in causing the problems in the 1st place. It isn't selfish to want to actually fix problems rather than paper over them.
Voting for biden is the best choice for the next 4 years. After that point, the pendulum will swing back to whatever crazy person replaces trump. maybe even trump for a 2nd termMore of your predictions just like how Bernie was going to be elected but he didn't. You should really take a step back and understand you have a lot to learn but I guess virtue signalling is going be in the way of that.
people voted for obama because they wanted hope and change. Obama immedately shifted right once he was elected and put all the same corrupt clinton officials back into office the second he was elected. The dems then lost something like 1000 seats in america. The next president was Trump who promised change too. If biden wins "nothing will fundamentally change". For this particular moment, that sounds like a good thing since trump is crazy. But then people will remember that things sucked before trump too. And they will still suck under Biden. And they will look for the next politician promising change from the right.
Even if this is true putting off problems is better than continuing and increasing on said problems which is what Trump is doing. Your just a bad person at this point willfully acknowledging harm Trump has done yet doing nothing about it instead telling everyone else to wait 4 more years of suffering and vote for my candidate and if they don't have another 4 years of suffering.
I am advocating that 4 years of pain is worth it to fix america's problems. You are saying that 4 years of pain isn't worth it and america should stay broken. Millions should die, go bankrupt and have their lives ruin in perpetuity because 4 years of pain is too much for you to bear. Which one of us is selfish?
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@TheRealNihilist
You do know you are being selfish right?
no, no i am not.
Your an accelerationist which is a problem for the people in the concentration camps, trans rights being on hold, abortion, any semblance of a climate change approach plus more.
so your argument is that some people will suffer under trump but wouldn't suffer (as much) under biden. So we are morally obligated to make millions and millions continue to suffer in the current broken system instead. You are advocating sacrificing the many to help the few.
Why don't you care about the people instead virtue signal as if you do?
i do care about people. The difference appears to be that my concern extends further than the next 4 years. It isn't only about what happens for 4 years. It is about fixing fundamental problems that ruin millions of lives. that kill people. Trump is a symptom of a disease. Electing Biden takes away that symptom but allows the disease to continue to ravage america. It won't fix america's problems and it will absolutely lead to someone crazier (and probably smarter) being elected once people realize that Biden cant and wont fix anything.
We ought to reduce the level of evil in the world
electing biden doesn't do that though. You just make that evil slightly less obvious. The dems and their corruption are the reason we have trump in the 1st place. He is the symptom of their decades of failed policy. Unless that policy is fixed, then electing biden is just a stall and we will get someone worse.
Trump is more evil than Biden therefore by voting for Biden you are reducing the evil around the world
as per the answer above, no it will not. It covers it up for a bit. that's all.
Voting for Biden is the best optionFailing to do this means you don't care about reducing evil
also no. Voting for biden is the best choice for the next 4 years. After that point, the pendulum will swing back to whatever crazy person replaces trump. maybe even trump for a 2nd term, after Biden fails to fix any problems. Voting for biden puts off problems, it fixes nothing.
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@Imabench
The fact that Bernie had to come out and distance himself from his own campaign communications director (who was refusing to endorse Biden) shows how pathetically stubborn some Bernie supporters are.... I think even Bernie himself is starting to realize that a majority of people in his base are irrational know-nothings who dont have a rudimentary understanding of how the political system even works.
no, Bernie is continuing to display the same weaknesses he showed during the campaign. He refuses to truly attack the corruption of the democratic party. Biden is corrupt. He has ruined potentially millions of lives with policies he strongly pushed over his career. Bernie refused to mention any of it. He wanted to win solely on the merits of his own ideas without ever pointing out how terrible Biden is.
Bernie has folded. He gave up on getting any kind of concession from Biden. Now, the reason for that is that Biden has been 100% clear he doesn't give a single fuck about the left or what they think. He will ignore them and fight against them and there was no way in hell he was going to give bernie anything. Bernie's choices were to fold or to fight. He chose to fold. But that doesn't mean anyone else needs to support Biden.
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@n8nrgmi
I don't even understand your point. We are pretty much there right now. Bernie came very close to winning. The only thing that prevented it was all the corrupt corporatist candidates all working together at the last minute.how do you see in concrete steps the left shifting to a bernie type of person?
here is why i think that approach is flawed. the left isn't as far left as you think. the reason biden and hillary won, is because most people are moderate, even if they are liberals.
this is what the democratic establishment will tell you (ad nausium). The problem is that it isn't true. The term "left" has become a slur. so most people will describe themself as moderate. But that doesn't actually mean anything. That is why left wing policy is extremely popular. But the people who support those policies would still describe themselves as moderate.
so what happens with your approach? the left keeps losing because it's split. and it's not even a close split, biden owned bernie once the other moderates dropped out and it was just mano y mano.
no. The democratic party learns a hard lesson. That if you ignore your own base, you will get crushed. They then start to listen to their own base, shift to left leaning policies that are extremely popular and start actually winning elections.
i dont like our party system, but it's not like a huge swath of people didn't have a chance in the primaries. the only way to maneuver our system, is to build coalitions on the most popular person, and that happens to be biden.
that kind of thinking is why america is in the problematic state it is in. Corrupt dems and corrupt republicans have traded off power for decades. Each have a slightly different flavor, but both are corrupt right wing, corportists. That is why the middle class continues to get wiped out while the rich get richer. Voting for biden is just a vote to continue the broken system that got us to this point and gave us trump. It wont fix anything, it only prolongs the problem.
The only solution is to break the cycle. The dems need to learn that right wing policy is a guaranteed loss.
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@n8nrgmi
if you dont vote for biden, your prized policies wont get passed anyway.
agreed. both are right wing candidates. The only way any progressive policies will ever get passed is if the demcratic party stops ignoring the left. which they will not do if biden wins.
you just have to come to grips with the fact that you can't get everything you want.
The left gets absolutely nothing it wants. Both parties do nothing but try to appeal to the right. and to rich people.
if the far left
It isn't a "far" left issue. It is the entire left. Roughly half the population of the US.
the far left has enough sway to change the course of an election, though.
this is exactly my point. The left has the power to crush the democrats. The democrats have spent decades telling the left they have no choice but to vote for corrupt, right wing assholes because the alternative is a further right wing asshole. But now the left can teach the democrats that if they ignore the left, they will never win another election. The left has power only if they use it.
if they choose to not vote for the democratic nominee who they didn't want, the worse candidate, trump, will win. and the republicans will continue to win with your mindset.
in the short term you have a point. in the medium to long term you don't. If biden gets crushed that will be bad for 4 years. If we can successfully reform the democratic party we can crush the republicans going forward.
it's illogical to vote for anyone other than biden if you want trump to lose,
Trump is a symptom of a deeper problem. America is broken. Biden getting elected wouldn't fix that. The problems will continue. The same forces that got trump elected would get someone even worse elected after Biden fails to fix anything.
it's illogical to vote for anyone other than the democratic nominee if you want republicans to lose in the future.
no, it's the exact opposite. Voting for biden only reinforces their idea that they can ignore a HUGE chunk of americans and still win elections. That is why obama won big (by appealing to the left), and then dems lost 1,000 seats during his 8 years. Playing to left, promising change is a huge selling point. Then shifting back right hands power to republicans. If we want democrats to win elections in the future, we need to ditch right wing fossils like Biden. We need actually progressive policies to win elections and Biden has promised that "nothing will fundamentally change".
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@TheRealNihilist
@n8nrgmi
I found this interesting video discussing why the left shouldn't support Biden.
The TLDR version is that one of the democratic party's main principles is tell the left to fuck off while they do everything they can to appeal to the right wing. They do this because they know the left doesn't have anywhere else to go. Until the left actually uses the power of their vote to force the democrats to listen, until they actually tell the democrats we will not vote for you if you ignore us, then no left policies will ever be passed. There are essentially 2 corporatist, right wing parties at the moment. Neither has done anything to earn the left's vote. Only by withholding support to politicians that ignore you can you ever hope to get them to listen.
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@ILikePie5
I would actually disagree. There are numerous objective reporters on Fox like Neil Cavuto. Name me one such person on CNN?
i don't really watch much CNN, so I honestly don't know many of them.
They lying, corrupt, sycophants.Compared to CNN, definitely not. CNN on a whole bunch of levels is worse than Fox News.
such as? Fox lies constantly. They fawn over every trump ally and toss them the softest of soft balls. They refuse to make even the weakest criticism of trump and viciously attack anyone who dares to. They are the very worst of the liars and sycophants.
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@ILikePie5
There’s also a big difference between saying you’re non partisan while preaching fake news. For the media it’s all a ratings game. Fox simply does it better because of openly conservative people like Sean Hannity. Both CNN and Fox engage in “lying” behavior. I’m not defending Fox, just saying it has better ratings. You on the other hand seem to be defending CNN. Is this true?
I didn't defend CNN. They present the facts with a distinct bias. Their opinion sections are often full of opinions that aren't supported by facts.
However, Fox is in a whole different league. They lie constantly. Whether it is the "news" team or the opinion people, it is all far right wing nonsense filled with lies, half truths and constantly kissing trumps ass no matter how wrong he is or how many people he is hurting and/or killing.
They lying, corrupt, sycophants.
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@ILikePie5
Difference between the two is that CNN claims they’re non-partisan when people on Fox like Sean Hannity admit they’re conservative. Honesty goes a long way as shown by the ratings for each channel.
there is a big difference between saying "i'm a conservative" and "I lie so constantly that you should ignore everything I say", which would be the far, far more accurate one. Anyone on Fox who events hints at a truth that they don't like is fired or attacked. There is no room for the truth on fox.
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@Greyparrot
CNN will ALWAYS have a job for them.Their "journalists" get paid $20,000 dollars a day to tell you what to think.It's a great job.
sadly that is what modern news outlets have become. But they are nowhere near as bad as "news" outlets like fox which just spews lies nonstop and calls it news.
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@n8nrgmi
so would you be okay if most left wing persons took your stance and didn't vote for biden, thus causing trump to win?
I would be ok with the democratic party actually trying to represent the people. At the moment they steadfastly refuse to do that. I would rather Biden lose and the democratic party actually take a look at itself and reform. But sadly, they won't do that. They will simply find someone to blame for the problems they cause.
Look at hilary. She lost because she was a bad candidate who didn't appeal to people. When she lost she blamed bernie sanders. It was Bernie's fault that people didn't like her. It was bernie's fault the left (rightly) saw her as a corrupt oligarch they wouldn't support. They will probably do the same when Biden loses.
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@Greyparrot
lol trump regularly attacks and fires people who don't sufficiently kiss his ass. If a fox news anchor asks even moderately relevant questions to a member of the trump administration trump is tweeting attacks 10 minutes later.
Of course, anyone who works for trump kisses his ass. It is a requirement of the job, because if they won't they don't work there for long. You can't work for a malignant narcissistic and not kiss their ass.
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@Vader
It took 3 days for him. He listened to the experts. Many places did not close down to China that quickly. China is the #2 country and to close off so soon is a huge risk for 9 CONFIRMED casesConfirmation is what we need, not assumptions
again, you are willfully missing my point. I'm not talking about when he closed the border. I am saying he did nothing to prepare for this catastrophe before it was WAY too late. By the time the border was closed the disaster was already fully in progress. There were 9 confirmed cases, and since trump had put absolutely no effort into getting enough tests, no one was testing people much. So there could have been a million cases and there would be no way to test for it.
The time to prepare (roll out testing, get stockpiles of medical supplies etc) was before you need to start sealing the borders. Trump did nothing to prepare.
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