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@Swagnarok
Bill Clinton. Joe Biden. A couple of Republicans besides Trump. The list goes on. Whatever the means that they employed to avoid serving, the fact is that they avoided serving.
Avoided serving or chose not to serve? Most Americans have not served in the military. That doesn’t mean most Americans avoided service or dodged the draft. If you don’t understand the difference then you are not a reasonable adult.
It's really simple.When it comes to women and the possibility of being pregnant against their will, you would contend that "bodily autonomy trumps all". But when it comes to men and the draft, where the length of conscription is longer than 9 months and the risk of dying is much higher than for the average pregnancy in a 1st world country, you call it a duty of citizenship. Either "bodily autonomy" matters or it doesn't. There's no reason to apply a different standard to men and women.
Are you comparing rape to being drafted? You are starting to come off as a nut job.
My point is, the rules for deferment were bogus. They were laws but there was no moral dimension to breaking them, since the obligation of service was not equal between rich and poor Americans.
They were not good, I agree, but you’re exaggerating, you didn’t have to be rich to go to college in those years of the draft.
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We need more regulations such as universal background checks, magazine capacity limits of 10 rounds for pistols, 5 for rifles, and red flag laws in every state.
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@Greyparrot
Lol, who could have predicted Biden would be the 1st president to order an FBI raid on a political rival?
That’s who you listen to? A bearded, tatted, hillbilly with a cross on his chest. You’re a dummy.
Trump politicized the Justice Department . With Barr and with his attempt to use it to overturn the 2020 election.
Biden had no say in the decision to raid the idiot Trump’s home.
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@Ramshutu
I’ll wait and see - Trump has been given an opportunity to object to unsealing the warrant - it will be spiced if he does :)
So, they are unsealed and Trump had top secret documents. Because he’s a rich, white man now we have to determine his intent.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Win, then you can slowly rebuild trust and stability. The only reason Germany could rise again was because the real nazis all got themselves killed.
In this story the Republicans are the Nazis you idiot.
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@ebuc
Actually it was 74 million idiots that voted for Trump in 2020.
If Trump was caught fucking a horse in the White House, I have no doubt Trump supporters would say What’s wrong with that, I was thinking of fucking a horse myself.
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@Swagnarok
There is no moral distinction between getting out of the war through college deferments and getting out of the war through claiming a medical condition.
That’s your opinion, but you have already made clear you would do anything to shirk your responsibilities of citizenship. And it was a fake medical condition- there’s a big difference.
And why wouldn't the guys fleeing to Canada accomplish this same thing? What's the difference?
The guys fleeing to Canada were honest in taking a stand that they did not support this war and they had to leave their country and their families to take that stand. They didn’t try to weasel out of it by faking a disability. Trump paid no price. And then Trump had the lack of self awareness to say I should be Commander and Chief as a former draft dodger who used fraud. I already addressed the differences with Bide who really had asthma. Believe or not, football is not as hard as combat. The two are not comparable for a whole host of reasons. I’m sure if you thought about it you could discern some of those reasons.
Just a reminder that I'm responding to this for the sake of argument; no fraud has been actually proven to my knowledge.
The bone spur. The bone spur that only existed during the threat of being drafted. The bone spur that Trump couldn’t remember which foot it was on. Just curious, do you think OJ killed his wife?
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@Swagnarok
And yet, criticizing Trump for it actively assumes that most of them would not, which you similarly can't know.
No, it only reflects on what Trump did.
Ah. Making it personal, I see.
It is reasonable to believe that you are inserting your own philosophy on how to handle a potential draft notice on the rest of the male population of the 1960s.
And plenty didn't.
How many ran for President?
Giving up one's life is an obligation of citizenship?
No, being subject to the draft. That rest of your comment is incoherent.
If the act of receiving a deferment is not immoral by itself, then if Trump broke a law to obtain it then it was a mere legality.
Authentic deferments are not immoral. The rules were set by the government. Biden had the same deferment as Trump but he really had asthma. Fraudulent deferments are cowardly, immoral, and unlawful as fraud.
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@sadolite
He will be the next President of the US. You heard it here first just like last time.
Did you also predict he would be impeached twice, be a one term President, have the highest turnover of any administration, have the largest National deficits, and instigate a riot at the Capital as he tried to cling to power?
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Trump used the Lincoln Memorial as a stage set damaging the 100 year old monument and breaking long established rules.
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Here’s a pretty good chart on Wikipedia that let's you compare gun ownership rates and gun homicide rates in 2015 and 2019.
Except in Florida, where the key data is not available. That’s one way to respond.
They can also end heat waves by getting rid of thermometers.
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@oromagi
That is more recently than I thought. It's pretty hard to give all the credit to a guy on his first year, and his second and third year were messed up. You are going to have a hard time making any legit comparison, I think.
In that case, he also wouldn’t deserve credit for any decrease in the crime rate in Florida, if there was a decrease in the crime rate. We don’t know.
Should the high homicide rate in 2020 be blamed on the policies of Rick Scott then or just the policies of Republican leadership in general? Republicans say that more guns and less gun laws make us safer.
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@oromagi
is there any evidence from before the Pandemic that supports this claim?
That is a valid question. Like I said before, did you want someone else to look that up? Are you interested in enlightenment or just being a debate judge? When did DeSantis become Governor?
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The entire narrative is sensationalized. People hurling insults like "Colonel Bone Spurs" at him as if he were some dishonorable cur when, assuming for argument's sake that he really did it, it was something that most of the guys in Vietnam would've done if they had the means.
Well Trump is the King of sensationalizing, but being sensationalized ( using it to mock him) doesn’t mean it wasn’t true or that it wasn’t despicable conduct. It was Cadet Bone Spurs because he was a cadet at a military high school. You don’t know most of the guys in the War or most Americans would fake a disability if they had the means. That may be what you would do if facing that option but most Americans do their duty and are willing to fulfill their obligations of citizenship and follow the law. There is no disputing, faking a disability was a fraudulent act by Trump. Going to college or staying in college is not fraudulent. Just like having children, which also entitled a deferment, was not fraudulent.
Countless young men did get college deferments. If you already pursued one deferment, then it's not a stretch that you'd pursue another. Going to war is a pretty huge thing (and frankly, a draft that only applies to 50% of the population is immoral in the first place), and even risking a relatively short jail sentence for fraud might be a small price to pay for avoiding it. On account of, you know, people wanting to live and all that jazz.
College deferments were not fraudulent, they were a valid reason for deferment. (albeit not a good policy) Faking a disability was fraudulent and pretty despicable too. I would have had more respect for someone who said they didn’t believe in the war and fled to Canada. His lie meant someone else would be drafted and take his place. It was very brazen for Trump to fake a disability to avoid the draft. There has been testimony under oath by his former long time lawyer that Trump believed people who went to Vietnam were suckers in his opinion.
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@Swagnarok
The entire narrative is sensationalized. People hurling insults like "Colonel Bone Spurs" at him as if he were some dishonorable cur when, assuming for argument's sake that he really did it, it was something that most of the guys in Vietnam would've done if they had the means.
Well Trump is the King of sensationalizing, but being sensationalized ( using it to mock him) doesn’t mean it wasn’t true or that it wasn’t despicable conduct. It was Cadet Bone Spurs because he was a cadet at a military high school. You don’t know most of the guys in the War or most Americans would fake a disability if they had the means. That may be what you would do if facing that option but most Americans do their duty and are willing to fulfill their obligations of citizenship and follow the law. There is no disputing, faking a disability was a fraudulent act by Trump. Going to college or staying in college is not fraudulent. Just like having children, which also entitled a deferment, was not fraudulent.
Countless young men did get college deferments. If you already pursued one deferment, then it's not a stretch that you'd pursue another. Going to war is a pretty huge thing (and frankly, a draft that only applies to 50% of the population is immoral in the first place), and even risking a relatively short jail sentence for fraud might be a small price to pay for avoiding it. On account of, you know, people wanting to live and all that jazz.
College deferments were not fraudulent, they were a valid reason for deferment. (albeit not a good policy) Faking a disability was fraudulent and pretty despicable too. I would have had more respect for someone who said they didn’t believe in the war and fled to Canada. His lie meant someone would be drafted and take his place. It was very brazen for Trump to fake a disability to avoid the draft. There has been testimony under oath by his former long time lawyer that Trump believed people who went to Vietnam were suckers in his opinion.
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@ILikePie5
I identify as an adorable deplorable
Do you think racists are deplorable?
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@oromagi
- False. I offered two fairly obvious tautologies
- Homicide data does not equal crime data
- 2020 was unrepresentative for homicide data
Oh you were offering tautologies, fairly obvious ones? That’s different then.
Homicide data is arguably the most significant crime data. It’s the crime people and law enforcement prioritize.
Just look at how republicans are always talking about murder rates in Chicago and New York as proof that liberals are weak on crime and gun laws don’t make us safer.
But your point is taken and I would amend the question to “Florida has more homicides than liberal, gun restricted SF. How can this be?” which may be considered more precise.
2020 was unrepresentative for homicide data
If 2020 was unrepresentative for homicide data then it was also unrepresentative for crime data.
Covid caused some crimes to increase while other types decreased.
DeSantis' performance stands disproved.
DeSantis has a terrible record on homicide, the most significant type of crime - having a higher homicide rate than SF. A city he has described as “catastrophic”.
If you can't show that homicide rates are the same thing as crime rates or that 2020 was a perfectly normal year for crime in America but still wish to show us that Florida has more crime per capita then San Francisco the burden is yours to find some other way to prove it.
Your non-contribution to understanding why gun toting Florida has a higher homicide rate than liberal San Francisco and Florida urban areas have homicide rates comparable to more populous American cities is noted. It seems you are more concerned with the process than actual enlightenment .
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@Swagnarok
I don't know. That sounds like a pretty sensationalist claim. Even if true, a lot of young men got Vietnam draft deferments, and those who got less unscrupulous deferments (like for being a student) only did so because they had the luxury of a choice. If it was either fake a medical condition or go to Vietnam, I'm positive that most would've faked a medical condition.
Are you aware of the accusation? What makes it sensational? Trump had already graduated college by this time so he needed another way to get a deferment.
If it was either fake a medical condition or go to Vietnam, I'm positive that most would've faked a medical condition.
You are confident? So how did so many young men get drafted? That’s really nonsense. Most people did not fake a disability to avoid the draft.
You understand Trump got his medical deferment preemptively?
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@sadolite
When was Hillary ever charged with a crime, investigated for a crime or have her personal home raided by the FBI? I see no comparison in your response.
Hillary was investigated by the FBI and accused publicly by Trump and dozens of Republicans.
Was Trump charged with a crime? Aren’t all people innocent until they are investigated, searched by authorizing a warrant and crimes are determined to have taken place? This is how the process works.
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Looks like guns don’t reduce crime after all. Who’d of thought?
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@oromagi
- Not my claim to defend.
Oh you made a claim. You had a theory about the data and took exception. But you don’t want to do the work.
That’s called being intellectually lazy, right?
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@oromagi
For example, San Francisco did way, way more lockdowns and work from home than Florida generally. In fact, DeSantis overrode some Florida Health recommendations for lockdowns, didn't he? Obviously, when the streets are empty, the few people who are out are and about are less likely to come into conflict, more obvious to police, etc. and crimes like homicide are likely to be positively affected.
Did you bother to comparing murder and crime rates in 2019 to support your theory or did you want someone else to do that for you?
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@Swagnarok
Did Donald Trump dodge the draft for the Vietnam Nam War by faking a disability with a phony doctors note?
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@sadolite
Sooo guilty until proven innocent?
Just like Hilary?
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@TWS1405
You couldn't debate your way out of a wet paper bag.
Are there debates like that? Are all the people debating in wet paper bags?
Or was that one of your fallacious ad hominems that’s just a innocent observation by you?
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@TWS1405
Psychic? Crystal ball? Sixth Sense?? Distant relative of Nostradamus?
No LCpl, just a commonsense analysis of what you said and what you posted as a source for support.
Oh, here commonsense is an adjective describing the type of analysis. lol
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@TWS1405
A prefatory clause mentioning a purpose, Scalia argued, is not sufficient to overwhelm the commonsense and contextual meaning of a right guaranteed to everyone." ~ What is a well-regulated militia?
Well now I know where you got all your ideas about the Second Amendment and Well Regulated Militias. From this tiny article in a tiny Libertarian magazine written by some moron who thinks highly of Antonin Scalia.
Did you also know that Scalia believes a real pitchfork carrying, cloven footed, long tailed devil walks the earth?
Some points from the article:
1. While Heller declares an individual right to guns, it does not recognize a right to all kinds of guns. It specifically says that the government has a right to legislate restrictions. Which is exactly what I am advocating for, a ban on assault weapons.
2. “Heller merely says the government can't enforce laws that prevent (most) Americans from possessing commonly used weapons in their homes for self-defense” The problem with that ruling is there is nothing to prevent a crazy person from taking that weapon outside the home and trying to kill a bunch of people. So we better be careful about what kind of firearms are authorized.
3. “Scalia, thought it made no sense to read the prefatory clause that way, because that would essentially nullify the direct and clear meaning of the operative clause. While the prefatory clause could give insight into some of the specifics of how to apply the operative clause, he argued, it could not make the right to arms contingent on militia service” The right to keep arms absolutely could be just for people in the militia, just as the right to say no to the quartering of troops in the home could only apply to people who had a home. Some rights are only relevant to certain groups of people.
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Los Angeles and San Francisco have been catastrophic,” DeSantis said.
[Andrew Warren: DeSantis sacked me for doing my job as a prosecutor. Who’s next?]
But the data tells another story. By my calculation, the homicide rate in San Francisco in 2020 (the last year for which comparable data are available) was 5.5 per 100,000 people. The rate for the state of Florida that year was 7.8, according to the CDC, a remarkable comparison given that crime in cities tends to be higher than crime in states as a whole. The 2020 homicide rate in Los Angeles was, by my calculation, higher at 8.9 per 100,000 people, but that’s still significantly lower than the murder rates in nearly every large locality in Florida, including Miami-Dade County (10.7) and Jacksonville (15.5), and the capital, Tallahassee (14.5).
Journalist Radley Balko
Washington Post
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@oromagi
Epoch Times is far below any acceptable standard for sourcing political info.
Only an idiot would cite the Epoch Times in a discussion about any serious matter.
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@Greyparrot
We’re sending back the vast majority of the families that are coming.”
We should have sent your family back
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@Greyparrot
Sanders’ “Medicare for All” plan "would cost more than the entire federal budget that we spend now."
Medicare for All costs less than what the country is currently spending for healthcare for some.
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So far I am pretty disappointed with the quality of participants on this site.
Are there any people with a brain? Liberal, conservative, or independent - Doesn’t matter as long as you have a firm grasp of reality.
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Clinesmith’s lawyer Justin Shur said his client’s actions played a relatively small part in the overall surveillance process and the broader probe.
“There were many people involved in these applications and many mistakes that were made,” Shur said.
Judge Boasberg agreed on that point as well, saying he wasn’t convinced that fully disclosing Page’s relationship with the CIA would have led to the surveillance of him being denied or ended.
Clinesmith could not have single-handedly done much to affect or fuel the Trump-Russia probe, since he played a relatively minor role in the inquiry. In addition, his alteration of the email came in June 2017, at the tail end of the FBI’s surveillance of Page.
Indeed, when Boasberg granted Page permission to speak at Friday’s hearing, the judge told Page to limit himself to comments on the impact of the FBI’s June 2017 surveillance application and not the prior three surveillance orders the FBI won to snoop on Page.
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@Public-Choice
Furthermore, half of these mass shootings, according to the National Institute of Justice's study, happened in the last 20 years, and 1 in 3 occurred after 2010. These shootings follow the Brady and Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Acts of 1994. [3]
I noticed you omitted the fact that the number of mass shootings has accelerated in this country after the Assault Weapons Ban expired in 2004
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@Public-Choice
91% of those on the FBI's terror watch list were able to buy a gun in 2016 (which includes an FBI background check by federal law). [1]
You mean the No-fly list? That was a Republican idea to let them buy guns.
(Murphy, who is running in Florida's Democratic primary for U.S. Senate in 2016, issued the tweet after Republicans repeatedly blocked a bill that would keep people on the FBI list from buying guns.)
Ya, read your story labeled “Source 1” This is the so-called No-fly list.
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Trump was sent a subpoena for the now recovered missing documents months ago. He chose to ignore the subpoena. When you ignore a subpoena (that isn’t from Congress) this is what happens - your home gets raided.
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FBI Lawyer Kevin Clinesmith insisted that he thought the statement was true at the time and only altered the message to save himself the hassle of procuring another email from the CIA. Prosecutors contested that claim, arguing that the FBI lawyer intended to mislead his colleague, but USDC Judge Boasberg sided with the defense on that point.
“My view of the evidence is that Mr. Clinesmith likely believed that what he said about Mr. Page was true,” Boasberg said. “By altering the email, he was saving himself some work and taking an inappropriate shortcut.”
Carter Page had been surveilled several times by the FBI including long before Donald Trump ever announced he was running for President.
That’s because Page had some close ties and suspicious interactions with known Russian agents while conducting business in Russia.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
And do those you brand as nutjobs often recant after being informed that you think so of them? That's a rhetorical question no need to answer.
Do you still live with your mother?
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@ADreamOfLiberty
That, along with the now overwhelming body of other evidence tells you that the FBI overall is entirely captured. By whom and what exactly is hard to say but from their actions one can say that they hate DJT and prefer democrats to republicans but prefer continued war above all else.
Q! You’re a Q whack job!
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Well I didn't mean that literally, it was a figure of speech meaning they are not honest or trustworthy. I consider them an enemy of the free people of the worldand I carefully consider what they say as one should study one's enemy. What they try to make you believe can allow you to infer their targets and vulnerabilities.
America is counting on you to save us from the FBI…you whack job
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@ADreamOfLiberty
In fact the FBI report said she did X (and X is a crime) but that she didn't mean to do X, intent was not required for X to be a crime.
If you think Hilary was guilty then you must really think Trump is guilty of worse “X”.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
And the FBI has been caught framing people, lying to secret courts (that shouldn't exist)
That’s a lie. The FBI does not frame people. They did not lie to the FISA Court. And the fact you think the “secret” FISA Court shouldn’t exist flags you as a nut job.
The United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC, also called the FISA Court) is a U.S. federal court established under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (FISA) to oversee requests for surveillance warrants against foreign spies inside the United States by federal law enforcement and intelligence agencies. Such requests are made most often by the National Security Agency (NSA) and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). Congress created FISA and its court as a result of the recommendations by the U.S. Senate's Church Committee.[1]
By the way, the Church committee has nothing to do with religion.
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@Public-Choice
The survey is effective because it explains how these people got their guns BEFORE THEY WERE ARRESTED, which is what we are talking about.
Are you not understanding that mass shooters typically do NOT have a criminal record before they go and buy an AR-15 and kill a bunch of people.
By making assault weapons unavailable, you will reduce the fire power they have when they go nuts and go on a rampage.
Automatic weapons are generally banned. That’s why you never see them being used in mass shootings.
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@Public-Choice
In the shootings you mentioned, they go right along with statistics, which shows that gun control failed to prevent either of those shootings.
It was the lack of gun control that led to these mass shootings. Assault weapons are way to easy to obtain.
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@Public-Choice
Additionally, just because a gun rights activist made a study, that does not disprove the study. If you would like to look at the data and provide me a reason the data is wrong, then that would actually be enlightening to me, as you would be the first to do that. Most people just do what you do and make an ad hominem attack.
He’s not credible because he’s a whack job, not because he’s a gun rights activist. He’s an economist, not a criminologist. Some of his studies have been criticized in peer review. And working for Trump is a very bad thing to have on one’s resume.
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@TWS1405
I know perfectly well that a Specialist and Corporal are an equivalent pay. You said I was a corporal; I was not. I corrected you. You were wrong. End of story.Notwithstanding, my position as an MPI under CID placed me above you while on duty, which was 24/7. So, your rank means nothing.
Hey LCpl, this guy Robertson who just got sentenced to 7 years in jail for January 6 reminds me of you!
Robertson also misled the court, Rocky Mount police, journalists and friends about his military achievements, according to the FBI. He has indicated in various interviews and conversations that he trained as an Army sniper, Ranger and parachutist in the 1990s; served as an infantryman, sniper and sergeant when he reenlisted in the 2000s; and received a Bronze Star and was awarded a Purple Heart after an injury.
BUT
The FBI agent said that Robertson was discharged three weeks into basic training in 1991 for “lack of motivation”; he reenlisted in 2006 but served as a military police officer and had no apparent training for any other specialty. He spent about eight months in Iraq with the Virginia National Guard and then went to Afghanistan as a contractor in 2011. He was injured there, but contractors are not eligible for the Purple Heart. The agent also said that Robertson exaggerated his recovery time.
- Washington Post, August 11
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@Double_R
I don’t think TWS is capable of reading the Federalist Papers, let alone understanding it’s very difficult style of writing.
In fact I doubt he knows what the Federalists Papers are or who wrote them.
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@Ramshutu
Anyhoo. I honestly don’t think this is about documents. I think Merrill Garland, the Judge, the FBI are all smart enough - and have all been alive since 2016 - to understand that if one is going to start a political shitstorm by raiding a former president; you probably need something more pressing and defendable to the people than “he has a box of memos he totally shouldn’t have”.
Thanks for your comment. Well, the people - meaning Republicans, believed Hillary Clinton mishandled classified information on her private server.
She didn’t, at least to any significant degree in the opinion of the FBI.
These are classified documents that Trump took, not “memos” as you say. The justice department has filed a motion to publicly disclose what they found in Trump’s possession. So we will see.
Oh, and it’s Merrick Garland, not Merrill.
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@TWS1405
I know perfectly well that a Specialist and Corporal are an equivalent pay. You said I was a corporal; I was not. I corrected you. You were wrong. End of story.Notwithstanding, my position as an MPI under CID placed me above you while on duty, which was 24/7. So, your rank means nothing.
You obviously are delusional. A silly little man who could never become a commissioned officer in the Armed Services but tries to tell anyone who will listen that you were very important. Then as a civilian you couldn’t even qualify as a police officer so you became some kind of clerk bounty hunter.
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