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@3RU7AL
Is this not how small nations become large nations?
How international law is made?
If criminals are reported and caught, they become more stealthy,
But this is better than criminals acting in free reign with no worry of being stopped.
Even if I dislike someone, or they do not provide benefit to me, it is not morally right to ignore their plight.
We live in a society, and by our existence viewing others, by our power, are 'part of the interaction.
An individual who sees a child fall in a well, says nothing, does nothing, ought be rebuked, shamed, acted against in the law.
Ah, and how horrible this applies to myself, and every opportunity I do 'not, the right action.
Well, some situations less ambiguous than others,
Some situations the ought less felt or compelled,
Some situations, self interest a common thread enough, no law compels.
Is a miscarriage not often a cause of grief?
Not because an opportunity died, but a 'person, by some people's standard?
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@3RU7AL
We seem to care about Ukraine and Russia?
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@3RU7AL
Explanation,
It's not about 'myself being harmed,
It's about protecting those who cannot protect themselves,
It's why hospital staff report parents, if it looks like their child is suffering from abuse.
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@3RU7AL
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@3RU7AL
True, enforcement is selective.
And if I think back to your argument on countries turning immigrants away,
Perhaps national borders are similar to,
Can't one use that same argument for land property and human slaves, during American period of slavery?
Though I would not agree that 'similar is the same,
Though if I do that for the border argument, I must do it for the body argument.
. . .
A nation is a shared location,
A body is a private location,
. . . Hm, I don't have a point with the shared and private location bit, just thinking to myself, trying to work out thoughts to self.
More on topic though, on response to,
"do you believe women own their own bodies ?" - 3RU7AL
What does a fetus own?
If an individual is tossed into the road, and I run over their leg,
Both causing a location for blood to escape, and by my car parking over it, 'blocking that escape of blood,
'Ought I drive off, killing that person?
How much worse if I 'ordered that person to 'be tossed in front of my car?
Situation is confusing, which is why I mention Loki's neck.
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@3RU7AL
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@3RU7AL
Can't one use that same argument for land property and human slaves, during American period of slavery?
You know, where slave could escape the South and be free, (excepting cases where they were sent back)
I also refer you to,
I don't mean this as too serious of an argument, but I 'am reminded of Loki's Wager,
I confess, I don't understand arguments based around ownership and privacy,
I 'do understand arguments based around personhood, though I don't necessarily 'agree with said arguments claiming fetus or baby lacking personhood.
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@ebuc
@ebuc
It 'is likely that I do not have a clear view of statistics of beliefs, intensities towards said beliefs, and 'groupings of said beliefs.
I'm vaguely familiar with,
India splitting over different beliefs, Pakistan, India, East Pakistan.
Atheists during French Revolution, Red Russia, Red China, persecuting and attacking the religious, and religious groups.
The United Kingdom having massacres and wars between Protestants and Catholics, or maybe it was just one attacking the other, I 'did say vaguely.
Rwandan Genocide, I'm told that it being their 'neighbors often, killing or raping them, was horrible.
Pol Pot persecution of intellectuals.
'Have been riots and places burned down in America, due to ethnic tensions in past, also the Civil War that occurred.
Nazi Germany and various people it persecuted.
. . .
Hm. . . There 'are counterexamples of people of differences 'living peaceful enough together.
. . . I'm not hearing anyone of 'significance 'say we should start a war, or start killing those different in America, currently.
But maybe I'm not 'looking enough.
Well, I agree Nyxified has a point,
But I myself don't agree that it follows that a fetus or newborn baby 'isn't human.
A sperm or egg is 'part of a human, but not a human themselves,
A fetus or newborn though, to me 'does seem a human.
Though 'human, does not mean 'person, I suppose.
But I myself don't agree that it follows that a fetus or newborn baby isn't a 'person.
. . .
Hm, is a carrot seed a carrot?
It doesn't provide equal nutrition,
But 'will only grow into a fully developed carrot.
Is not just a 'piece of a carrot, I'd think.
Hm, fetus isn't the same as a 'seed though.
Comparing apples to oranges, isn't so bad, as comparing vegetables to humans. .
Though I suppose if we were a different alien race, different moral questions might pop up,
Assuming some race of sentient talking carrots existed.
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@FLRW
That doesn't mean children born from rape, should be killed,
But, that people should not rape.
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@SkepticalOne
@3RU7AL
@FLRW
I don't mean this as too serious of an argument, but I 'am reminded of Loki's Wager,
@FLRW
I admit, a thought that occurs to me for some rapists who intended to have kids, is rage,
That they should succeed in their aims, feels insulting,
'But, the third party, how can one assign 'any blame or hurt from?
'Does depend on when one believes a third party 'exists, I suppose,
But I still think that's one of Pro Life's most common questions and argument, 'is it a person?
Of DNA though. . .
Well, I imagine we've 'all the DNA of a rapist, murderer, thief, so on so forth, 'somewhere in out DNA,
Just need to go back far enough, perhaps.
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@Nyxified
I think you make a good argument, but if there are animals as intelligent as humans of X age,
Then by your argument, humans don't become 'human, until they are sufficiently developed,
And some (Mentally challenged) 'never become human.
Seems to me.
Which I suppose, wouldn't be a 'wrong way of looking at the question,
I suppose that a tadpole might not be a frog,
An eggs not a larvae, larvae's not a pupae, pupae's not an adult ant,
A caterpillar is not a butterfly.
But many people still value the (mentally challenged), see them as human, though maybe they'd have to be 'very mentally challenged, not to be human by your proposed definition.
Hm, still, a carrot in the ground may not be 'as developed as a carrot popping out of the ground, but at a certain point it 'is a carrot, no longer a seed.
Eggs and sperm alone, are not new people, 'new DNA, of and 'not of our own.
But a fetus 'does seem someone new, (To me).
The argument of forcing children to bear children for all the 'potential children,
Doesn't 'quite match Pro Lifer's argument I think (Usually),
I think Pro Lifer's see 'a human, more than the possibility of a human.
A person may kick a bum or 18 year old, or illegal alien, to the curb,
But that's not 'quite the same action as 'killing them.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
A significant centralization of power 'has occurred, I admit,
But I assume, but do not know, that such is what occurs with societies.
America started as small separate settlements, holding different values and laws,
Grouped up and homogenized over time.
Unless the change is 'sudden,
Such as the Federal demanding we give up our guns immediate like,
I don't see any 'significant backlash,
Changes in values, laws, rights and wrongs, occur more. . . small, little pieces over long period of time,
And 'need be outrage 'great enough to 'justify Rebellion, for it to have a popular movement.
Civil Rights were a huge change, and though I'll admit there was a lot of backlash, murder, riots, protests,
It wasn't carried out in such a way, or change so sudden or so great, that people rebelled, (So far as I know, I might be missing some pages in history book)
If Trump had taken power, and then 'kept power,
As in people hadn't in time dismissed his 'claim of rightful victory,
I could see a Civil War then,
But such didn't happen, and I didn't 'expect such to happen,
Trump 'claim he won, not surprising,
Trump 'temporarily and illegally seize power, 'maybe but unlikely,
Trump 'keep that power any significant amount of time, I'd be surprised.
But I'm rambling,
Another point is the 'division of the modern community, 'seems to me.
But 'is a possible that's just flawed perspective of my own, and my vision 'misses united communities, that struggle together, strive together, make great change together.
'Without separate united communities, I don't see minor issues 'uniting large factions into 'war.
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@Greyparrot
I really don't get people's worry of Civil War in modern America, unless something 'significant develops.
Trump, Abortion,
I don't see any Civil Wars in these.
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@Conservallectual
Eh, first social website I remember joining,
Good conversation 'is far and between, but I find bits now and then.
I'm even enjoying a conversation now,
Though I wouldn't say I've quite grasped their logic yet.
I 'do like the user interface of DDO.
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@SirAnonymous
Personally, I don't think 'breathing, really makes one a breathing expert.
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@SirAnonymous
(1) I don't know who the breathing experts in question, were.
(2) That paragraph does 'not imply the breathing experts were medical professionals, to me.
(3) I don't know if it is correct use of term, breathing expert.
When I think breathing expert, I think guided relaxation, or anxiety control technique.
But I'd suppose that hospitals have individuals versed in observing breathing,
Whether when an individual is put under anesthesia, or during surgery.
Respirations 'are part of what one usually checks for vital signs, as far as I know.
I'm not sure what qualifies one as an 'expert,
Or whether one would 'know that another person 'knows what they're claiming, and aren't just giving their 'opinion.
The advisors being black, may or may not factored into Chauvin's heeding or ignoring of their advice,
I imagine what matters is one's 'own opinion, others importance as superiors, whether they were juniors in experience and or rank, part of the problem solving group of police or part of the unrelated (In Chauvin's mind) crowd of people butting in when they ought just give the situations space, buddy or antagonistic relation.
Some people just keep on their action out of mule headedness, or they think it's funny, who knows maybe he partially discounted their opinions because they 'were black, I couldn't say.
I'm doubtful that Chauvin thought he was going to kill the guy,
I 'think the case had more to do with negligence, than intentional murder.
But I'm rambling, and don't want to care much about case anymore anyway.
Also I don't know if the police make respirations part of training, regular training, or a sticking point.
Lot of groups just go through motions of regulations, and regulations end up guide lines,
Or technically we're 'supposed to care, but we train you in a way that shows we don't care, unless something happens.
. .
Also training and application might be seen as different for care of injured survivor vs person resisting arrest.
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@Greyparrot
Are you talking about medical marijuana,
Or personal choices in general?
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@Greyparrot
@TheUnderdog
@Intelligence_06
Who is happier I wonder,
An individual who eats junk food,
Or an individual who eats steak.
An individual who spends time twiddling their thumbs,
Or an individual who spends time on meaningful work.
An individual stuck in a rut,
Or an individual who every X years improves their situation.
Not that a person 'can't have a meaningful life, make money, or be healthy in their body, 'And smoke weed.
But it doesn't seem very. . . aidful, in doing so, to my perception of marijuana and it's effects on lifestyle.
Free states 'do tend to like freedom though.
I could see a poisoned or drugged populace being advantageous in an 'Unfree State, though only in keeping the populace weak and undirected.
Though it might injure productivity in trade for the aforementioned advantages.
Are they really?
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@TheUnderdog
We force people to follow 'some of our values,
It's just a question of which one's 'ought we force?
Hypocrite?
. . .
According to the logic of caring for others, we 'ought take certain actions, if we are to be in accordance with said logic. . .
If I do not 'follow those actions, am I a hypocrite?
Other logics exist,
Caring for others is just 'one goal.
. . .
I'm not sure I am, I 'do care about other people's circumstances, but still, there are times I choose my own comfort over theirs,
Hm, perhaps I am a hypocrite,
. . .
. . .
Still. . . Being 'Justified in an action according to fairness and obligation between intelligent existences. . .
Does that mean a person can'not take 'UnJustified action?
. . .
Sorry, I'm rambling, confused by morality, briefly.
But then, that's just 'Justified in that 'one end goal logic,
There are other End Goal Logics. . .
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@Barney
If one 'categorizes, or 'evaluates something,
'Sometimes that stance identifies them,
Sometimes not, I suppose.
An individual may acknowledge the existence of Dictatorships, but they need not 'follow such an ideology themself.
Yet if an individual acknowledges a scientific fact, they are attributed that facts name, as it's something they believe to 'be.
I'd suppose racism can be both a 'viewpoint and an ideology?
If one 'acts on their perceived truth, or decides it 'matters to them in X way?
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@TheUnderdog
I think relation 'does matter.
People have values,
And one of my values is that between an arbitrary individual of my blood, and an arbitrary individual 'not of my blood.
I care more for the individual with my blood,
Moreso the 'closer in blood.
Though that's not to say I 'couldn't value an individual not of my blood, more than an individual of my blood.
It's not about 'willingness, it's about what is right,
And what is 'right, isn't necessarily how I'll 'act.
I think people have a moral obligation and duty to one another,
Doesn't mean I'm going to 'act on it.
Though I 'may act the closer or 'stronger the obligation.
I think it 'is wrong, to not help the homeless.
If my brother had treated me like crap all my life, maybe I'd feel different,
Or if I had grown up having never knowing him until today,
I couldn't say-
Well. . . Eh, anyway, I care for and feel duty to my brother,
I understand different people have different values, different families, different situations.
Sometimes it's better to be away from family if they are bad to you, take advantage of you, only results in hurt,
I only know my family as I have them now, and my values as I have them now.
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@Barney
I'm not sure, but here's my stab.
Broadly, I suppose someone identifies a group of people as possessing similar genetics different than some other group.
Acutely someone who identifies an individual with possessing genetics different than some other individual.
Though no one really cares about those racists, enough to call them racists.
So I suppose usually one calls a racist an individual who discriminates against a 'group, defined by their genetics and history, blood and culture.
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@TheUnderdog
The African kid is far away, and not my blood.
I feel 'less for a homeless individual that I do not see, that lives in another city,
Than a homeless individual I pass in the street.
And even that street passed homeless individual, I feel less for,
Than if an immediate family member of mine was homeless.
. . .
Hm, I think we've had this conversation before?
And it was a friendly point of disagreement, how we saw our responsibilities to others?
Well, power to you, if you get into a habit and lifestyle where you eat animals less.
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@TheUnderdog
Myself I have difficulty seeing abortion as 'right, even in the case of rape,
The 'rapist should face consequences,
But other than that, to me it seems a more similar situation as regular sex or careless sex.
We just attribute to the mother more responsibility, due to their choices, when it's not rape.
But the crux to me seems whether one view the beginning process of a human as sacred.
Personally, my holding of values as 'objective is a bit shot, but I think a human 'has to hold values, no choice, like breathing, thinking.
So I hold more to that which I prefer, am used to, use myself.
I 'still value the beginning of a human,
People say dogs are as intelligent as a (I forget how many years) old.
People in 'general don't value 'animals very much, we eat cows, pigs, various.
If one was . . . 'Rigorous in their identification of a 'person, 'when would this apply to a human?
'Some people don't mind even last minute abortions.
That being said, my view on abortion is more. . . Theoretical in my head, I don't much like the idea of forcing others to follow my own standards, disagree with abortions though I do.
Though it's not great to be lukewarm, in one's ideals.
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@TheUnderdog
I 'could find some examples, but I don't feel like skimming through books I own at this time.
Individual accounts of conversations and statements by Hitler exist in interviews, public statements, journals.
"The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science ... Gradually the myths crumble. All that is left to prove that nature there is no frontier between the organic and inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light, but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity."
Still, Hitler said a lot of things, was literally insane by the end of the war, I'd say, and even before that, a notorious liar.
So I'd think it likely that one could find numerous statements of him, that support various beliefs.
I just know that when I was on a WW2 reading binge, Hitler came off to me as an Atheist, a Materialist, and valuer of Natural Orders as he saw them.
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@amandragon01
I would say my experience of my brother and knowledge of his character,
But I don't see this as at odds with faith, myself.
PGA2.0: Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the Word of Christ. Do you understand the deeper meaning there? #1
User tenshonJesus even says himself 'blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.'It's a false dichotomy to claim that it's either faith or reason. When Jesus talks of those who "have not seen" he means those who understand without having the proof shown to them empirically.It's like if someone said "it's hailing outside, don't go outside or you'll get hurt". Then they reply "I can see the hail, but I don't believe that I will get hurt unless I go outside myself and feel it.". And another replies "I can see the hail and understand it will hurt me, so I won't go out.". This person believes without seeing that it hurts. He applies reason.Much of what Jesus says requires a deeper understanding. See for example Matthew 13:5:For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.or Matthew 16:9:Do you not yet understand or remember the five loaves of the five thousand?Or Luke 10:23:Turning to the disciples, He said privately, "Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see, for I say to you, that many prophets and kings wished to see the things which you see, and did not see them, and to hear the things which you hear, and did not hear them."So when Jesus talks about believing, he is actually talking about understanding - applying reason. He isn't talking about blind faith.
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@TheMorningsStar
Axioms in life 'do seem to run into trouble at times, when put into practice.
Often needing to mesh with other axioms, bend, or allow other axioms precedence.
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@3RU7AL
I vaguely remember a chaplain in the military,
Regarding individuals giving off suicidal indications, as I recall the chaplain would get into contact with said individuals higher chain of command,
Not so much 'saying anything, as giving a wink wink, nudge nudge, that they thought they should check up on X, make sure he was doing okay.
Or maybe it was the chaplain wouldn't leave a suicidal individual alone until they got help, or he was sure they weren't a risk.
I forget, might have been two different chaplains,
Or maybe I'm remembering a conversation 'about someone else's experiences? I forget.
Point though, is that even people in privacy minded occupations,
Often act according to their conscious or groups instruction per the situation.
Different people, different organizations, different nations, different laws.
If you asked me how I would form my 'own society,
I'd probably 'eventually put a framework into place,
Would take a while though.
But when you ask me exactly what this person or that person should or does,
I don't know, as I'm not well read enough.
I'm 'sure churches and the profession of psychology have considered the question, and have arrived at different answers in different places, different points in time.
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@SkepticalOne
@3RU7AL
Two strangers, Walking upon the mud road, Stumble into one another, Becoming intertwined.
Says The First, "I see you are a small fellow, Not matching my girth, Additionally the cloth you wear is of less value of mine, Shove off my fine fellow from myself, I've no time for you."
Says The Second, "Pray wait a moment or ten, And we can disentangle ourselves without violence, It's a ruin to my clothes, My day, If I fall, Splattered in mud, Just wait a moment and together we'll both 'clean, Continue on our ways. "
Says the First "No Sir! I say, The longer we're together, The more a 'chance exists we may 'stumble together, Any can see plain, That two unbalancing one another together are a risk, More than one by themself calmly righting themself, 'off I say. "
I've thought about inaction for a time,
And myself 'do think it makes one morally culpable.
Whether it makes one 'legally culpable, is a different story.
Or whether action at a certain point, simply becomes 'beyond a humans capability or what one ought expect from them to respond.
Hospitals at any rate,
Regarding possible child abuse,
I'd say have a duty to ask probing questions, or flag investigators.
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@3RU7AL
The individual mugged,
Or individual born deformed,
'Might disagree.
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@3RU7AL
I think it's possibly that prisons in 'general, could be designed or restructured many different ways,
Likely improved.
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@3RU7AL
Well then, in response to #132, I reply,
If you 'thought 'maybe you saw someone being mugged, should you call the police?
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@3RU7AL
I'm unsure, as I'm not well read on the law.
But it would seem to me a mistake, to put a completely physical man in a woman's prison, or a completely physical woman in a man's prison.
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@3RU7AL
Does the law say anything about pregnant women engaging in "activities that are known to be potentially harmful to the development of the unborn"?
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@3RU7AL
People also thought Y2K was going to be a big disaster.
I'm not saying the prediction is wrong, but that I've done no research, so I don't have a strong opinion on it.
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@3RU7AL
Would you support the overturn of Roe V Wade, then?
As it'd put the power more in the states hand, and you think it'd go way of some other laws, such as gay marriage or marijuana?
Perhaps something similar in the way individuals are deemed flight risks, and prevented from leaving prison,
Deemed suicide risks, and prevented from leaving a short term inpatient psych ward,
Deemed of unsound mind, and prevented from leaving a hospital.
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@3RU7AL
Ah, I see, it's a conspiracy theory?
I don't use the words conspiracy theory, to say it's not 'real.
Though my mind currently has it flipped on not real.
Some conspiracies prove true.
I thought you might mean inevitable collapses as happen to populations naturally in course of history or environment,
But you mean government induced policy, I think.
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@Polytheist-Witch
@3RU7AL
@oromagi
@Self
Ahh! So many Replies.
And I've met people in a past job of my own, who abused their children.
Likely such experiences influence 'both our individual perceptions of life,
I do not mean to say in a bad way, just that the experiences exist.
It's the choosing to harm another, that bothers me most.
And still think it's our perceptions of the unborn, that influence our end conclusions most.
I understand new amendments have been added to the constitution,
But I'd argue that amendments 'effect one another.
Privacy is not considered unlimited, is my point.
A place similar to a hospital, or a prison, or an asylum, I suppose.
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@3RU7AL
If a woman was a meth addict, it might not be 'jail quite,
But she 'would end up somewhere where she was under watch.
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@3RU7AL
Illegal immigration process could likely be improved.
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@3RU7AL
@#115
On a case by case basis,
Parents who burn their children with their cigarettes, or break their babies legs for crying, ought not have custody.
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@3RU7AL
@#113
On a case by case basis.
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@3RU7AL
That is true,
And babies are transported to foster care, and other such places, which can prove deadly, maybe.
But it's 'not the same as executing them.
I can appreciate someone wanting to leave their country,
And I can appreciate a country wanting secure borders.
Sucks that there is a conflict of interests.
If "there is no explicit "right to privacy" in the constitution"
Maybe there should be?
Or maybe there shouldn't be?
I'd have to read up on it.
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@3RU7AL
@oromagi
Do we also have right, as Washington did, to treat our slaves as we like?
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@3RU7AL
We 'should force women not to drink or smoke while pregnant, in my opinion.
America does not make it a policy, to kill illegal immigrants.
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@3RU7AL
I'm not very well read on abortion precedent,
I'd imagine that there are 'many rulings on abortion,
And that many rule against, due to implicit right to life, precedent.
But I assume you are talking about Roe V Wade?
Maybe privacy being held above a child's life, is reason a Justice sees it as shaky foundation?
I don't actually remember 'why he called it a shaky foundation, I'm just assuming.
Maybe there shouldn't be a morning after pill either.
I'm unsure about Pro Choicer poll beliefs, or polled reasons for being Pro Choice.
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@SkepticalOne
If a teleporter malfunctioned,
And I was half transported into your body, that we share it,
It doesn't feel quite fair to me, that you should be able to kill me for that.
'Especially when in time, we can be separated.
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@3RU7AL
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@secularmerlin
Was Michael Jacksons genetics, that of an African or a Caucasian?
Even if people dyed their skin one color or the other, their genetics are still going to be presupposed to what their genetics are presupposed to.
Though,
If I look at it a different way,
One could argue by examples such as Black Like Me - Wikipedia,
That people are 'treated differently by their appearance or claim in social structure,
And with time racial divides have broken down greatly, from what they 'were in America.
But I don't think all people who are against promoting transgender,
Necessarily want them to be treated with no respect,
I think many see it as a question of rationality,
Think that it's healthier, less dangerous to society, for people to keep in society the position of sex they were born.
Though I suppose some racists would argue the same. . .
Hm, 'still I wouldn't agree that race and sex are the 'same,
Other than social norms, Sex has a 'Far greater impact on human interaction, and consequences 'of one's sex.
Such as strength in men, or pregnancy in women.
. . .
Hm, also some people by 'culture, more acquired group, than genetic past group, I suppose.
Nature vs Nurture, effecting an individual.
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