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@3RU7AL
Well, I'm unwilling to go for the Pro Choice stance, as a number of people on this site seem to be insisting it ought be,
Where they refuse to say killing a baby moments before birth, or after birth is wrong, for convenience,
Because they say it hardly ever happens,
There is middle ground, and I'd be willing to meet there, even though there 'still leaves me uncomfortable,
But to go 'all the way to Pro Choice, I'll not,
So I'd rather stick with the ground that I think moral,
Being the Pro Life camp,
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@GnosticChristianBishop
Facts build towards beliefs,
As facts are recognitions of what we 'think something is,
Faith is what we hold, for what we 'think, is.
I'd say.
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@3RU7AL
An arrest 'still isn't the same as a conviction,
Though certainly the system 'ought work that people aren't arrested without due cause,
Or these arrests cause them to lose their jobs,
And what happens if the mother miscarries? - imdancinshe has to prove she did everything she could to preserve and prioritize the life of the baby - 3RU7AL
I don't think she would have to prove she did everything she could to preserve and prioritize the life of the baby,
The state would have to prove that she intentionally or through gross carelessness caused the babies death,
And even then, that's only if/when such a law exists.
I'm not saying I'd pass such a law myself,
But it makes me uneasy to vote for a law that makes abortion a trivial matter,
Pro Life doesn't mean 'no abortions at all, given that exceptions have already been remarked upon,
But Pro Lifer's can't treat abortion as 'nothing, as 'some, not all Pro Choicers seem to.
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@GnosticChristianBishop
You deal in facts as you see it,
They deal in facts as they see it.
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@GnosticChristianBishop
They speak the truth as they see it,
You speak the truth as you see it.
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@3RU7AL
Is this what people want and 'expect of the system in it's ideal form though?
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@Intelligence_06
I'd imagine religious people often are or think they're trying,
And maybe think that the gist of what they're trying, is what they think or hope God would want.
Or various individuals in churches history,
Though maybe people change doctrine a bit, as situations and knowledge changes.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
@#1
Well, there exist churches who have transparent records of how much money they receive, and how they spend it,
It's not wrong to give people salaries for their work, for building and grounds maintenance, for charity given that many churches for example provide food to the homeless.
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@3RU7AL
I think there's an argument for innocent until proven guilty,
And even if one is taken into custody, that doesn't necessarily mean they are guilty,
Seeing on how they are going to have a trial?
Also, I'm not sure it's most common policy to arrest people, without having acquired evidence and just reason to believe they are guilty?
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@Tradesecret
Eh, online individuals can often be argumentative, uncooperative, religious or atheist,
Though I'd not say the most vocal always represent 'best, their groups,
Personally I think there's,
No afterlife,
That our morals are born of nature, nurture, and game theory,
That we nonetheless hold moral habits, goals, and ethics, preferences we lean towards and follow, it doesn't matter if I'm an intellectual nihilist, seeing on how I'm still human, possessing a heart so to speak, figuratively and literally.
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@Danielle
@SkepticalOne
Societies have functioned with slavery, pedophilia, gladiatorial combat, the burning of witches, genocides upon other societies, child sacrifice, burning of widows, so on so forth?
I see a functioning society as good,
But I'd not put 'all my morals aside for the sake of function.
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@SkepticalOne
I 'do see a lot of webpages stating that abortion does not decrease if made unlawful,
But I'm also able to find webpages that suggest making it unlawful 'does decrease abortion,
I'm 'inclined to think you have a point,
But I'm also inclined to think that abortion rate depends on multiple variables,
One of which would be the legality or illegality of abortion,
If the other variables are not addressed, then I'd agree making abortion unlawful, alone, might not have as much of an effect as one wants.
But arguably, societies and laws change by degrees,
My worry for a number of Anti-Gun laws for instance,
Is that they edge towards a far greater ban on guns.
Don't feel a need to read the below unless you want to,
I include them only to say I'm not convinced that banning abortion would have no effect,
Or not be a moral stance/action.
I also don't agree with the 'logic of Roe V Wade, if it is as people say,
"right to privacy" that protects a pregnant woman's liberty to choose whether to have an abortion." - Roe v. Wade - Wikipedia
As to me, the issue isn't 'about privacy.
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@3RU7AL
I thought we supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, in this country?
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@3RU7AL
@#285
Well, there's pain, and then there's pain, some people would say.
Why do you think some people choose to exist just fine,
Until they acquire X disease, then they request assisted suicide?
There's pain, and then there's pain.
Though I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the above.
@#286
Even if one identifies moral principles,
People of different natures and nurtures,
Are going to hold different moral principles, I'd figure?
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@3RU7AL
@#277
Well, I meant more, this,
"Late term abortion
The Dutch Termination of Pregnancy Act allows abortions to be carried out up to the 24th week of pregnancy. This is the point at which the fetus becomes viable outside the mother’s womb. Late-term abortions – after the 24th week – are excluded from the Termination of Pregnancy Act and fall under the criminal law. Doctors have a duty to notify them to the review committee.
Late-term abortions may be performed only in exceptional circumstances. The following due care criteria apply:
- The unborn child must have a disorder so serious that medical experts believe that medical treatment following the birth will be futile. There must be no doubt about the diagnosis and prognosis;
- The unborn child must be suffering, or must be likely to suffer following its birth, with no prospect of improvement;
- The mother must make an explicit request for the pregnancy to be terminated on the grounds of the physical or mental suffering the situation is causing her;
- The physician must have given the parents a full explanation of the diagnosis and prognosis. This means that both the physician and the parents must be convinced that there is no reasonable alternative solution given the child’s situation;
- At least one other, independent physician must have examined the child and given a written opinion on compliance with the due care criteria listed above;
- The pregnancy must be terminated with all due care."
Though I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the above.
But it 'is a problem with the law,
That it's not always enacted the way people would like,
They may think X should be illegal, but then the legislature assigns a punishment for X, that the people think is way too severe,
Though they 'still think X shouldn't be legal.
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@SkepticalOne
"The only thing abortion restrictions tend to do is make abortions more unsafe." - SkepticalOne
Even if you disagree with Pro Life, I don't understand your statement,
Logically if it's against the law to carelessly abort, then there are going to be less abortions,
It's the same logic with outlawing prostitution or drugs like Krokodil,
Sure 'some people will break the law anyhow,
But less people, ideally.
There's also a sizeable number of Pro Life people, who'd be willing to allow abortions in various situations,
But so many people frame abortion debate as binary, well, they'd rather not kill a baby moments before birth, or 'after birth.
There's also Pro Lifer's who'd prefer it if people had to look at their ultrasounds, which if abortion was legal, would not in itself make the abortion more dangerous.
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@Reece101
"Washington — The House of Representatives passed two bills to address the nationwide baby formula shortage Wednesday night as families continue to face bare shelves across the nation.
One measure would help enable recipients to buy formula by giving the Agriculture secretary the permanent flexibility to waive certain requirements the special supplemental nutrition program for poorer women, infants and children, known as WIC, that limit the brands and quantities of formula that WIC recipients may purchase. The bill would also require that formula manufacturers have contingency plans for protecting against disruptions in supply in the event of a recall. It passed with a large bipartisan majority of 414 to 9.
All nine "no" votes were cast by Republicans: Reps. Andy Biggs, of Arizona; Lauren Boebert, of Colorado; Thomas Massie, of Kentucky; Clay Higgins, of Louisiana; Matt Gaetz, of Florida; Chip Roy, of Texas; Paul Gosar, of Arizona; Louie Gohmert, of Texas and Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia.
A second measure to provide an extra $28 million to the Food and Drug Administration to help get fraudulent formula products off store shelves and boost the part of the workforce focused on formula, as well as FDA inspection staff, also passed, but with just 12 Republicans voting in favor.
Republicans said the plan did not force the FDA to come up with a plan to immediately address the shortage, nor did it force federal agencies to look for formula that could be immediately redirected to American households or use the power of the federal government to move formula around. They also said the FDA already had enough money to deal with the crisis. "
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Then again, maybe the 'number of votes and bills and such is an issue?
"The 115th Congress introduced over 10,000 bills between 2017 and 2019, and 443 of these were signed into law by the president."
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Why isn't there some easy to find webpage,
With a list of every politician,
Tagged with your state or district,
Where on each of their profiles, it has a list of votes they've made, along with statements then and currently by them, as to 'why they made that vote,
Bills or Amendments to Bills they introduced, along with statements by them, then and currently, as to 'why,
I say then and currently, as people should be able to change their minds, or acknowledge mistakes in the past,
So on so forth?
My 'guess would be politics involves too much lying and metagaming, by metagaming I mean strategy, political maneuvering, deals between individuals and groups, so you can pass or block certain bills, sounds a headache.
I'm unsure if politics would be better, worse, or the same, if one attempted to introduce transparency.
Some subjects, I'd suppose 'require secrecy, but I think I might prefer such a website if I were to found and be 'part of a new country, myself.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Whether scripture or reality,
People are going to have to make evaluations of it,
Live their lives as they think is right.
When I say reality, I mean I'd imagine you could apply your argument of,
"A well below average scripture translator messing up a few scriptures and having it effect their morals.
It may effect their morals negatively or positively. "
To people's experiences with life,
Maybe the knowledge that humans are fallible is reason to be cautious in our conclusions,
But it's not a reason for people not to write, or use writings in interpreting life, to my way of thinking?
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@Polytheist-Witch
Well, 'I don't view it your way either,
'Might be I know even less of Christianity than I think,
But I 'already rate my knowledge of it pretty low,
So, personally I 'don't think it's that I know less than I think,
But to each their own view, I suppose.
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@Polytheist-Witch
I 'really don't think that's the way most of Christians view the Bible,
But maybe I'm mistaken.
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@Polytheist-Witch
What about the 10 Commandments?
Why even include the Old Testament, if it has no bearing on Christianity?
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@Polytheist-Witch
How do you account for Leviticus 21-22 ERV - Rules for Priests - The LORD said to - Bible Gateway then?
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@3RU7AL
Cherry picking is common of many, I'd think, regardless of religion.
People liking this or that constitutional bit of history, precedent, bit of logic in their head even if it contradicts some other bit of logic in their head.
I can understand disliking the claim of the Bible being perfect, given that it has various forms, and editions.
Without talking to the person making the claim, I don't know their reasons for their claim, myself.
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@3RU7AL
Myself I couldn't say what rules applied to priests or not,
Which rules it's reasonable to think applied then, not now,
Which are ritual, or moral, or moral by that time periods people,
I'd have to read and research a lot more than I care to.
I'd have to reread and think about the Bible and related writings, to have an opinion on what it might say about same sex people,
Though if a Theist or Theist brought up a 'single example, I'd probably find that easier to address, not asking for an example though.
The Bible says a lot of things, and was written by a bunch of different people, edited by a lot of different people,
Even if I was a Christian again, I'd have to take what it says with thought, reason, and research.
Though I'd argue Theism isn't 'solely based on the Bible,
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@3RU7AL
I'm not too familiar with, Leviticus, 'but,
"Leviticus, (Latin: “of the Levites”) , Hebrew Wayiqraʾ, third book of the Latin Vulgate Bible, the name of which designates its contents as a book (or manual) primarily concerned with priests (members of the priestly tribe of Levi) and their duties."
The Bible is a bunch of books, and various purposes, I'd say.
Some is history, poetry, philosophical, ritual, some speaks of how the Jews back then structured their group to be set apart from the pagans about them, some of it are laws that people see as specifically related to people back then, some are laws that people believe still matter greatly today, some of the Bible says things like don't eat shellfish maybe because they often had parasites in that area/period I'm unsure, don't carelessly handle dead bodies and not wash yourself (Because dead bodies can be dangerous, disease and what).
I don't see the hair trimming as unreasonable, in context.
Why do some judges in the past wear wigs, would one then say because the law used to say they had to that anarchy is more reasonable than the law, because their old law books said they needed to wear wigs?
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Ah, so you don't believe in the existence of different races, among humans today?
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@ADreamOfLiberty
So rational racism is okay, but not 'irrational racism?
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@Barney
@3RU7AL
@oromagi
@ADreamOfLiberty
What 'qualifies as a race?
Say there is an African American, and a Caucasian, and they both have Albinism,
And some African American or Caucasian without Albinism discriminates against them for their genetics as Albinos,
Would the first two people mentioned qualify as an Albino race?
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@3RU7AL
Capitalist or Communist, might be meant as an insult, if one uses the word, that one is not.
Perhaps so with some racists and some people 'against racism.
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@3RU7AL
Maybe a gigantic government having too much power,
Worries people more than a 'small group of humans working issues out together.
'Degrees of a same 'notion, make for different notions.
A pat on the back is seen as friendly, unless it's given with excessive force,
Yet it's 'still a hand on the back, applied with force,
Yet it's 'not essentially the same as before.
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@zedvictor4
Well, it's not 'quite one book in a way, as 'many books compiled,
Many authors, time periods, different purposes for different parts, different contexts,
If one 'only looked at the Bible as an atheist, viewed it 'purely as myth and historical, I think some pieces of it would 'still match real life locations and other historical records.
And as for blueprints, well, I think there's a lot in the Bible, that 'could add beneficially, to how an individual lives their life today.
What 'was the Bible quote anyway?
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@zedvictor4
"don't quote the Bible
Because the Bible is awash with moral contradictions."
I'm not sure that's really a reason to not quote something,
I mean Star Wars has moral contradictions, doesn't mean I'm not going to quote it,
People in history have moral contradictions, they make witty statements at times.
One uses a quote because in the context of a conversation, the words fit,
In evoking emotion or logic.
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Personally, it always 'sound to me a bit wrong, when the news talks about government targeting Putin's kids, girlfriends, or ex wife.
'Probably makes more sense in context, such as their having influence or positions,
But it 'comes off to me poorly,
I would dislike it if other countries targeted US politicians wives, children, relations.
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@Nyxified
Actually, after thinking it over, I don't know for sure 'what I see in a fetus,
I get a bit dramatic sometimes, in debates.
And I'd say I have logic and ideas, that contradict other logic and ideas,
But I have that about 'many logics and ideas,
That only a big contradiction or logic 'might worry me.
Rambling,
Talk of what makes a human, reminds me of a webcomic though.
Still, I'm not interested in having kids, and would decline to do so, if the opportunity ever arose,
But I 'don't think be positive, towards aborting a kid, if the situation ever 'did occur,
Though some might argue it an empty vessel without experiences, awareness.
Hm, though what's awareness,
Human grown in a box, or empty void,
Likely be very underdeveloped,
But I'm rambling.
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@Greyparrot
I'm not sure how well developed they'd be though?
Whether they would receive everything necessary for development, that they would receive 'normally developing?
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I suppose that currently, 'any world power with a significant number of nukes could conquer the Earth,
Simply cause nuclear war,
All they'd have to do is prepare enough people and material in bunkers, to reconquer the globe after the devastation.
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@Nyxified
Your clarification of alive 'does help me,
Though in context I'd agree it 'was probably clear enough.
We 'do execute humans, though moral arguments 'not to, seem to be gaining traction these days, I think.
At what point in human development, do we surpass a cow or dog in intelligence, consciousness, sentience?
Likely belief in the soul 'does drive many Pro Lifers,
Though I myself am an Atheist and a Materialist, I don't believe in the soul, or an afterlife.
But, . . I'm also a Moral Nihilist, in that I reject moral objectivity, intellectually, not in action,
For 'in action, I really don't know how I could,
Humans make decisions, value judgements, act, hold to some sort of habit or code,
What then do we value?
Ach, rambling,
Point is even without souls, I value humans,
And in a fetus, I see a human.
Though I was 'raised religious, so that might have some input on what I value,
Though some Atheists raised Theist, instead 'reject anything and everything connected to religion, in their rejection and despising of religion.
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@Nyxified
Arguably, there are many 'different conditions of mental impairedness.
That I hazard/guess, individuals might exist, with awareness on par with a dog, a lacking or impaired sense of higher emotions.
But of course a dog is still 'alive, and that's the word you used,
But so is a fetus 'alive, I would think, heartbeat.
But even a 'braindead human is 'alive,
But they do not feel experience consciousness or complex emotions, words you used.
Sociopaths and Psychopaths exist, but I 'think are many different types and degrees of,
I've read some claim they lack or at least commonly have great loss of emotions,
Certainly a fetus if fully developed, is going to "experience consciousness or complex emotion"
Sorry I'm rambling a bit, not 'quite trying to make a point with any of these.
I might have missed your reply to this,
But I say again,
Eggs and sperm alone, are not new people, 'new DNA, of and 'not of our own.
But a fetus 'does seem someone new, (To me).
The argument of forcing children to bear children for all the 'potential children,
Doesn't 'quite match Pro Lifer's argument I think (Usually),
I think Pro Lifer's see 'a human, more than the possibility of a human.
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@ebuc
I'm in my late 20s,
I don't recall reading the manifesto, no,
I 'don't think significant enough number of abortion people are going to move based on their beliefs,
Though I think they 'ought,
People 'ought live by the laws 'they think are right, to an extent.
I don't think society's divided enough, that there'll be war.
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@ebuc
I also don't see any coming race war,
If there 'was going to be a race war, it would have been in the past,
When different groups were held to different rights,
When the KKK had a significant pull and power.
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@3RU7AL
If she's in the US military and develops schizophrenia,
Then the military would get her to take medication to return her to normalcy.
Same as with a guy.
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@3RU7AL
I'd have to do research,
Before having a strong outward opinion on legalized marijuana or prostitution.
True though, that America had trouble with crime, when they outlawed alcohol.
I can not say if it was a good or bad action, myself, I'd have to do more research.
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@3RU7AL
I've voted for people, for certain political offices,
And there's been laws at times I think,
Though I don't remember most of the people or laws.
Lot of people and laws I 'haven't voted on, not knowing enough about them, to have a strong opinion.
. .
True, I don't call the police for everything I disapprove of,
Never called the police that I can recall.
Teachers and superiors, more common,
Though it's 'better to my mind, if problem can be solved on my end,
Or persons involved.
Hm, I don't 'think I've ever called teachers or superiors on situation regarding individuals in a problem, I'm not of myself, only observing.
Or parents.
Usually problems smaller, easier to weather,
Or I lack moral courage to 'do more,
Some situations talk to person involved, see if they need any help, or 'want to contact someone higher up,
Hm, but I'm not sure I 'remember talking to people very often, seeing if they need help.
Distant pasts, memory fails.
Clear and achievable goal is essential, I'd agree.
Difficult to 'do anything without identifying what problem is, what needs to be done.
Often difficult to know if you even have accomplished anything, without identifying goal.
I'm not as familiar with the law as I'd 'like to be.
Locations might not 'be comparable.
Different locations have different constitutions, thresholds, likely actions and behaviors.
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@ebuc
I get what you say about people being forced to get along,
And would think myself, that is a fair bit of what America 'is,
Don't go around murdering people for being a 'bit different than oneself or group.
And it's 'likely I underestimate Trumps pull on people or groups,
I was dumbfounded when he was elected,
Though I 'during his presidency I disliked him, I could understand people 'voting for him in re-election,
Start a Civil 'War for him though?
I am doubtful there are enough people to matter,
And far less enough people to 'hold him in power.
Not unless some 'big threat came about.
I disagree that religious followers cannot see any 'nuance in egg, sperm, fetus, baby, though.
Unless we are talking about 'small group of religious followers,
I think as thett3 says in another thread, many people are willing to accept abortion in 'some situations and cases, but not all, or not for convenience.
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@3RU7AL
I would say laws form due to values,
Whether that value it morality, or self protection.
Though what is 'meant by morality confuses me these days,
Given that I can imagine a morality based around self interest,
I 'dislike holding to moral nihilism, yet 'having to behave as a human, follow morality,
I've not thought of it for a time, but I dislike the dissonance I feel from it.
. . .
I 'have tried to help people, and made situation worse.
I'm sure laws have existed, do exist, that require people 'act in situations,
Whether to just call the police, or step in themselves.
Though I admit, I'm unsure myself, how one would write a law,
And even if such a law 'should be written, a bit.
I speak of 'moral obligation, more than I do 'legal obligation,
Because I 'do agree a bit,
On the difficulty or dislikability of 'forcing people to act, in a framework they have not agreed on, or have a clear cut responsibility.
It's easier to say don't murder,
Than say risk your life to catch the murderer, even if you're not a police man.
Exact word semantics, meanings, relations to other words, is confusing.
In general I mean, I agree with your point, that society usually does not call executioner a murderer.
And felony murderer status 'did cross my mind,
Though I'm not greatly fond of it myself, feels it 'reaches a bit far, often.
It 'does seem to me a problem,
That abortion seems. . . 'blurry, that people view it differently, the morality or right of it, I mean.
When significant number of people believe something, then even illegally, they will act.
And situations 'can be worse if done illegally, than legally.
People make similar argument about prostitution, and drugs, I think.
Though I'm not wholly convinced that consequences are better or worse, depending on legal or illegal.
Are the laws I vote on, not within my jurisdiction?
One can 'excuse human weakness, but it is not something I should 'aspire to, I think.
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@3RU7AL
International law is not quite the law of an individual nation, true.
And most of time, people cannot tell judge, "I have formally withdrawn my support for this court, so you can't hold me"
I consider it immoral, 'not to render aid, in many situations.
The law is complicated,
And perhaps statistics show that child abuse should be ignored, but I am doubtful.
I have never claimed to be perfect.
I do not know.
The murder of a close loved one, causes grief,
We write laws against murder.
An accidental death, causes grief,
We work 'against such accidents occurring.
An accident of negligence causes death, causes grief,
We might make laws requiring people hold proper awareness in certain situations.
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@3RU7AL
I was just drinking, I didn't 'mean to run over that person with my car.
Some situations of aid being possible to render, are more clear cut than others.
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