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Just a thing that happens now and then.
Tragic though.
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@Jarrett_Ludolph
I think it's semantics.
And that people have different opinions on it.
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The point is that the Bible is not observable from nature
Personally I think that the Bible 'can be observed through game theory and history.
peasants imagination
Seems a bit of a high horse statement, and incorrect. To my thinking anyhow.
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@ILikePie5
Clearly his mistake was not sitting on Santa's lap, before telling him what he wanted for Christmas.
Otherwise I'm sure Santa would have delivered.
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@3RU7AL
Haha.
What an irritating conversation that would be.
Babylon 5.
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@Tarik
@Username
1. How do you create solvency/establish negative impacts without making moral claims? I know Nietzsche wrote some stuff about crafting orientations towards living in light of the subjectivity of morality but I'd like some more specificity here.
Reminds me of a conversation I had with Tarik, a while ago. Though I'm just cutting two clips out of it.
START
Just want to know your thought process, are you a nihilist?
It's a label I like put upon myself, yes.
So hypothetically speaking if someone were to try to kill you would you object?
I would.
I possess a desire to live.
I thought nihilists thought life was meaningless?
Though it might depend on what you and I mean by nihilist.
I have difficulty in describing it myself.
But to me, it's an intellectual recognition of the lack of objective meaning in existence.
Or perhaps in the intellectual recognition of relativism.
I tend to be scatterbrained on the topic.
I may consider nihilism to be true, but I'm still a human.
I already possess habits that I have acquired earlier in life.
A person might be able to recognize a cockroach as harmless, yet exhibit an extreme phobia or fear of it.
My perspective of nihilism, might be said to be the opposite of such a reaction.
A human that still cares, I guess I find it puzzling how one can care about a life that doesn’t matter.
Some people care rather heavily about games that do not 'matter.
Chess, Dungeons and Dragons, Football.
END
START
Do you believe in morality?
In a sense, yes.
Individuals and societies have beliefs that certain circumstances/actions are right and wrong.
Then you’re not a nihilist, do you believe in God?
Possibly not, but I still consider myself one.
I do not believe in the Christian God, or any afterlife.
Why?
I desire proof.
I see the existence of similar, but different in other civilizations.
I see flaws in the written word.
Why doesn’t that desire apply to morality?
What do you mean?
When I say I believe in morality. . . It's a bit similar to my mind, of saying I believe in jump rope.
It's a concept.
Much like math existing, such as 1+1=2,
Certain concepts exist.
Elaborate please
The golden rule for example.
We humans possess empathy, and 'feel showing kindness (as we see it) is good, something to be encouraged.
On a cynical view, groups understand enforcing kindness is beneficial.
Underlying question is it a true concept or a false one?
Habits get repeated, and true or not, people believe them.
The habits become important to them.
The habits cluster, as a snowball.
I would say false.
Though based subjectively in a narrow context to accomplish an aim or play by a games rule, it can be considered true.
I do not consider murder or cruelty to be objectively wrong.
I do not consider helping or kindness to be objectively right.
When you say cluster you mean death?
No, I mean they'll give birth to similar ideas.
Certain conclusions and decisions leading to others of similar nature.
If that’s true then why did you say you believe in morality?
Because in the sense I believe in morality, a person could believe in God.
If I did not believe in the 'concept of God, I don't understand how we could discuss him.
I believe in the 'concept of monsters under the bed and other such fabrications.
If I tell my child that there is a monster under the bed, and this prevents him from getting out of bed and romping around, then it had an impact.
Morality, to me, is real in this sense.
By people believing in it, it has an impact.
But I 'still consider it arbitrary.
The number 1 does not exist.
But I believe that the number 1 exists.
Why does the impact of an inherently false answer matter so much to you?
Because I am human.
My nature and nurture has decreed such to matter to me.
END
I don't really see why doubting morality should stop a human from making moral claims.
A person doesn't doubt that humans 'use morality to live life and interact with one another,
It's unavoidable, our nature.
I don't think a moral skeptic is arguing that the concept of morality does not exist. But instead rejects the notion that is 'a morality.
Morality and ethics are just a bunch of arbitrary board games and rules we humans use
But it's not as though there's some definitive edition, that is the 'correct way to play the game.
'I think a moral skeptic argues against the claim that there is some 'ideal version of morality, that is the definitive edition.
But that conclusion doesn't 'really matter, because of what we 'are.
I really don't see why an intellectual conclusion would stop a human from living their life, usually.
Even if one thinks morality is flawed, they're still going to go about their way based on their habits and nature.
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@Intelligence_06
The place you go to be trained like man-robots so you don't get killed by other people trained like man-robots from other places.
Eh, it's not 'wrong.
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@Username
Or could use,
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy,
Article on Moral Skepticism
or search Moral Skepticism on that site,
Now that I look at it and did a short Google search, doesn't seem that moral skepticism is 'so synonymous with nihilism.
Ah well, I live and I learn.
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@Username
People 'have starting points for their morality,
What I disagree with is the validity of the starting points,
But having nothing better, one continues on, keeping what one has or not, often acquiring new starting points, but still influenced by their origin.
I've read Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy at times, for basic knowledge on some things.
Also Quora and Reddit, but those sources are hit and miss.
Though I still don't feel confident in 'backing, proving, my own opinions of moral skepticism to others much.
Still haven't managed to think it through and lay it down tidy like, or educated myself rightlike regarding it, to 'do so, I'd say.
Would you say moral skepticism is similar to agnosticism?
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@3RU7AL
If you're confident in your own belief, why would you bother?Why would talking at someone else (while ignoring them) help YOU convince YOURSELF?
Fine points, that I agree with you on.
What's the point of "defending" an argument if that argument has no ability to CONVINCE others?
Though I still think my points are valid in response to this question.
Perhaps I simply lack the ability, but one meets many obstinate people on the internet, that one does not expect to convince.
Sorry a bit rambling here below.
. . .
It's like playing a video game, people want a challenge, but they 'still want to win, to beat the opponent.
Hope for an opponent who'll fight them, but not be so skilled as to crush them.
Want to be able to showcase their own RTS or FPS skills.
. . .
Sometimes a person is simply confused how others could possess certain beliefs that they find 'wrong, yet people still possess these beliefs.
Sometimes a person just wants to see 'why, though they don't want to be convinced of those beliefs.
Rather they want to crush those beliefs, not be affected by any of the opponents arguments, and just say wrong, wrong, wrong. I don't understand how you can be so mistaken. Even after all my objective arguments you still won't admit defeat?
Clearly you're just an idiot, and your beliefs were of no real threat or consequence to me, I can continue on happy that my beliefs are right, even though other people hold different beliefs, they are based upon faulty logic.
. . .
It's just using some person that you expect to beat, to 'further convince yourself of your beliefs. 'Even if you're confident, people often like having 'reason to be confident.
You might say an opponent Steelman is better than an opponent Strawman,
But sometimes people like playing video games on easy mode,
Or only doing light lifting at the gym.
. . .
I 'do agree with not ignoring the opponents points, but sometimes that's a tactic people try, since they like winning the debate.
Myself I'm prone to admitting fault or weakness in the comments of a debate, than 'in the debate.
Unless I'm debating someone as a friendly conversation or think it'll aid me to admit fault then counterattack. Then it's easy enough to admit fault.
. . .
Confidence, can be gained by experience, effort exerted and proven.
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@3RU7AL
What's the point of "defending" an argument if that argument has no ability to CONVINCE others?
The fun of winning.
The Fun of affirmation.
Ends and means justification.
To further convince oneself, and remind oneself 'why one holds their current beliefs, and change those beliefs at times.
Doesn't really mean that one throws out convincing the other and the audience.
Objective arguments seem to me an excellent way of winning after all.
Even disregarding religion, I sometimes feel morality 'is just an appeal to authority. . . Or aesthetics.
I do agree that in convincing your 'opponent, I think it necessary to consider what 'they believe, and how you might guide their thought and will to see and acknowledge that which they find difficult to deny, be it by logic or emotion.
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@seldiora
Competition debate, I'm much less willing to concede points, as I think a person's role is to defend his side of the debate to their utmost, and again, competition.
Though I may be wrong, 3RU7AL's debate structure he's suggesting sounds more like a group of people on the same team discussing an issue. Whether it's valid or not.
Competition being more similar to a strict devil's advocate, cooperation being a more lenient one.
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Well, since people mentioned FreedomToons
REASONS TO VOTE FOR JOE BIDEN!
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@skittlez09
Pumped up kicks 1337 A.D (A medieval cover with vocals)
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@Mharman
I like his self confidence and humor in posts #24, #25.
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@Username
Nothing to say on the topic really, just wanted to say nice profile picture.
Feels more fitting per your username.
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Personally, I think the fact that a number of their descendants and communities no longer honor monuments of ancestors and heroes to their states, shows that the extremists back then weren't 'wrong about how they feared the future might end up.
But eh, I'm from Oregon, other side of America.
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Cyrano de Bergerac (1950)
First saw it on YouTube 2-3 years ago, I don't recall how or why that came about though.
Black and White, humor, love, drama, action, tragedy. . . What's not to like?
I'm not sure if I bought the book/play before or after though.
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@Jarrett_Ludolph
Atheism,
Because of numerous small events over a long period of time that I don't really pay that much conscious attention to.
Supernatural doesn't seem to occur in the modern era that I've ever noticed, I've never noticed any evidence of something beyond material existence.
I read about the past, and mundane explanations seem reasonable conclusions, to me.
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@Greyparrot
There's not a single nation on the planet that innovated through government intervention. America will be fine if it is not the first nation to have zero emissions on the planet, and it will also be fine if there will never be a nation with zero emissions on the planet because there isn't a consumer on the planet willing to pay the price for zero emissions.
That statement seems obviously wrong to me, but I'm not interested in arguing the point with someone who does not realize this.
Yay for stupid ideas!
Well, I've heard your opinion.
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@Juice
Is there anyone here who agrees with me? Or am I the only conservative around here.
No, I agree with you, though I don't consider myself a Conservative.
I've just already talked about this subject with people, enough that I don't have 'much interest in saying more.
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@ILikePie5
Well, the website you directed me to had a video where Biden stated,
"We have to move towards a net zero emissions. The first place to do that by the year 2035 is in energy production, by 2050 totally." - Joe Biden
I didn't see a video where he said 2025.
In the video you showed me, he talked about transitioning.
Countries have transitioned through many different technologies and developments of history. From plows and tractors, horses and cars, hand makers to automated factories.
I see you also think China will corner us on the Green market if we pursue that direction.
I don't think the Romans 'needed fossil fuels when they made steel and concrete.
I disagree with your perspective of bye bye to electricity, for various reasons, but I'm lazy to argue the point.
Are fossil fuels an infinite resource?
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@Greyparrot
So basically what you're saying is you think China can find alternative to oil better than us.
But you figure the USA is better at grabbing oil than China.
Let me ask you this then, why do a number of people think it is advantageous to find alternatives to oil?
Not trying to trap you, or pretend I'm smarter, just looking for information.
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@MisterChris
One phrase of the video MisterChris recommended stood out to me a bit.
"As no government is willing to tell it's citizens, they will live worse lives than their parents, every government inflates their currency as much as possible." - Why is the World Crazy Now?
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@ILikePie5
Ya but Biden wants to get rid of it by 2025, increasing energy prices astronomically. Let the market work out instead of an arbitrary and unfair deadline which what the Paris Accords do
Do you have a source/quote?
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@Greyparrot
Pretty sure government grants subsidies, seems to me it should grant them in the interest of the state and the people.
Seems to me if they have policies and programs, they should be in the interest of the state and the people.
Government/Tom McCall was a reason that Oregon had a good stretch of being environmentally friendly for a time.
Back to oil though, saying, I'm sure the oil companies and consumer know what's best,
Just seems to be ignoring the problem, to my way of thinking.
This humorous clip illustrates,
Memorial Honors Victims Of Imminent Dam Disaster
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@Greyparrot
Logically they're still 'valuable, just seems intelligent to diversify ones energy options is all I'm saying.
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Why is Biden wanting the USA to move away from oil a bad statement to make?
Seems reasonable idea to me.
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@Barney
Could set up a judge 'pool, of people who activate their status as being willing to judge a debate if specifically asked.
Though I suppose that's a bit the point of the voting requests forum topic.
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@3RU7AL
Though I agree with you,
Cognitive impairment is relative, wouldn't you say,
What with some adults being uneducated, poorly developed by nutrition, or having psychological bents,
Feels a gray sliding scale area.
That someone as not as capable, does not follow they're 'incapable.
Compare an average man shooting basketball hoops with a professional basketball player,
Though the average man is poor in comparison, he's still able to shoot the ball through the hoop some of the time.
It feels more a social/cultural/definition based idea, consent.
What with older societies having kids start earlier in life, what with war and short life spans. . .
By such I'd still say children can't consent, but it's a. . subtly understood definition, a social norm with reasonings behind it, we don't really bother spelling out, though they're there.
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@3RU7AL
If there was a "self-moderated" debate option, would you participate in a "self-moderated" debate with me?
I would.
"You're a dumb lefty.""You're a dumb conservative.""You're a dumb goddist.""You're a dumb nihilist."
Ha, who takes arguments like that seriously.
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@Intelligence_06
Saying kids can consent, feels like it misses the mark to me though.
Feels like it misses the implied underlying question/assumption.
Say if you asked someone if they could handle a gun, and they said yes, only to run their hands across it, or to shoot it, but with terrible aim, and poor reloading time.
I wouldn't feel such a person knew how to 'handle a gun.
Feels like it doesn't answer the question in the 'meaningful way one is asking.
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@3RU7AL
@#1378
The audience is removed from the conversation in private messages, as well as the. . . posturing people sometimes exhibit in debates, and the forum, 'usually.
The forum isn't 'too bad for debating to convince your opponent, even has thumbs up from people reading, if they rather like a post.
And debates can be created with the spoken interest of avoiding devils advocate, and speaking honestly.
I think it's an interesting idea, but it seems a bit difficult to implement maybe.
Maybe bit of a niche market.
And they are a good number of people unwilling to be convinced online, though 'maybe less than I think.
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Though I think I'm right, and that my arguments are better (Though that's not much to say if the opponent is really 14 years old).
I feel like I fail to. . . Address their argument 'quite right.
I figure this is just due to consent having certain logic and description depending on certain scenario, but that I fail to speak it correctly.
What do you think?
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@3RU7AL
I couldn't say, currently.
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@3RU7AL
One could make an intellectual conclusion that Moral Nihilism is 'true, I think.
Without it being the defining force of their pursuits.
If I was to define my pursuits, I'm not sure what I'd say.
Hedonism perhaps, Existentialism, Aesthetics, Tradition, Culture, Conscience, bit of a mess perhaps.
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@3RU7AL
Eh, I'm a moral nihilist, there is no good, just apparent/practical/habitual 'good.
I'm fond of doing well by and for myself, and to an extent, other people.
It's enough for a rough direction, same way in Oregon I know West is roughly the direction of the closest ocean.
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@3RU7AL
Don't know myself, subjectively, objectively, standards set, norms, goals, ideals. Maybe.
When I heard that story it was from a coworker in a psych ward, I believe he told it as a way to encourage some people that how they look at a situation would effect how it effected them, how they'd feel about it.
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@3RU7AL
I've heard that story before, it's an interesting one.
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@secularmerlin
I think that most people would get the gist of it.
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@secularmerlin
Understanding apparent choice, can lead to such 'realities, as a person not lashing out physically in anger. But instead taking a moment to calm down, or go for a walk.Thus not hurting others, their own self worth, or incurring prison time.In what way does determining the course of action least likely to incur negative consequences equate to choice? Freewill is unnecessary when planning ones day. Only an awareness of more than one possible course of action and an understanding of the likely consequences of said course.
And so the foolish brute hammers away at friends and families, not even considering the idea of himself having control, or will over his own actions. . .
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@secularmerlin
They are non sequitur in that they do nothing to logically support the idea that ALL individuals are responsible for their own economic and socio political realities. Could the average citizen of Japan effect the outcome of the war? Is it the fault of the average Russian citizen that they lost the war?Is it not true that the cities and nations that rome conquered did not want or choose to be concuered?
Citizens are part of a whole.
I speak of Rome, to describe how the small can become great.
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@secularmerlin
Sigh, I do so dislike the conversation of free will.
Hm, let me see, Anton Chigurh, Macbeth. . .
No, something else. ..
. . .
. . .
Understanding apparent choice, can lead to such 'realities, as a person not lashing out physically in anger. But instead taking a moment to calm down, or go for a walk.
Thus not hurting others, their own self worth, or incurring prison time.
That is a beneficial outcome of the 'mirage, whilst a mirage in a desert results in naught but dehydration.
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@secularmerlin
Non sequitur. None of these examples gives us a long term solution to systemic poverty.
I forget what a Non sequitur is, one Google search later, ah.
They are appeals to emotion, though I don't see that as a bad thing.
They are not solutions to systematic poverty, though I do see them as hope, or reason for individuals and groups to 'try.
I like the idea of my fate being in my own handsI like that idea too. The problem is that I don't think we have any evidence that this is the case.
The practical nature of it exists, I would argue.
The appearance of it exists, I would argue.
Though I did not care for his interpretation, finding his words unduly harsh, and lacking an understanding that some people do not possess the capability to respond to certain circumstance or that certain circumstance can overwhelm.I can relate to that feeling right now.What's happening in life with you?This conversation.
So be it.
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@secularmerlin
If it were a community of people possessing mental frailty and illness, I would simply remark upon it with no criticism,Ok what about a community socially/economically disadvantaged people?
If Diagnosis could be a philosopher, If the Rome could grow to a nation from a single city, If Japan could equal the West and decimate the Russians in the Russo-Japanese War.
I'd hold out hope for a socially and economically disadvantaged people.
I think individuals and groups should have a sense of responsibility for how they confront existence, no matter what it is.Yes but not for how existence confronts them.
Yes, it 'would be bizarre, quite recognized as unjust of me to say that the Okies during the Dust Bowl deserved their fates, or that people laid off during Depressions deserved their fates, that someone sexually assaulted deserved their fate, or that victims of the Holocaust deserved their fate.
Be horrible to say, and perhaps what I've already said is horrible.
. . .
But I like Ego, I like Narcissism, I like Pride, Self Worth.
I like the idea of my fate being in my own hands. . . And so I focus on such an idea, I grow fond of philosophies which espouse it. I enjoy writing crude poetry regarding it. I like looking at my life that way.
I've had a far better life than most, though it's still not all I would like, and I've had parts I've hated or feel shame in.
So I can hardly soapbox this as though I'm an authority, or 'know anything.
But still I have opinions.
And I like talking, now and then.
Though I did not care for his interpretation, finding his words unduly harsh, and lacking an understanding that some people do not possess the capability to respond to certain circumstance or that certain circumstance can overwhelm.I can relate to that feeling right now.
What's happening in life with you?
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