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@secularmerlin
I think individuals and groups should have a sense of responsibility for how they confront existence, no matter what it is.
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@secularmerlin Forgot to direct this at you, was focused on writing it.
So in your viewA: persons born into impoverished communities are less deserving of education and resourcesAndB: government regulations that promote harm to certain groups are of equal value as government regulations that promote wellbeing equally to all groups.If I am mistaken I welcome any clarification 0f your arguments.
No, that is not the view I intend to say.
. . . My view is 'intended to speak of people's 'own power over themselves and their situation.
To argue that they should look to themselves, not lament or cry so for help.
Not that I haven't grumbled over circumstance, or asked for help before.
I don't even mean it as 'that damning of an idea.
It's similar to how in some forum post, the user Willow, once lambasted some religious family for praying, rather than working to improve their circumstance amidst a disaster.
Though I did not care for his interpretation, finding his words unduly harsh, and lacking an understanding that some people do not possess the capability to respond to certain circumstance or that certain circumstance can overwhelm.
. . .
Still, so long as one places value on human understanding, action, autonomy.
So too, do they hold value in the idea of humans being able to make their own circumstance.
If a person messes up at work due to carelessness, then they have brought that mistake upon themselves, they deserved it for being careless.
I don't mean to leave it at that, criticism, I mean.
But as admonition to practice and build 'stronger awareness of one's surroundings.
Nor do I mean it as merely criticism, when I frown upon a community for not being able to help themselves, but because I believe they can be better than that.
If it were a community of people possessing mental frailty and illness, I would simply remark upon it with no criticism,
But for the standard human, why should more 'not be expected?
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@3RU7AL
If the government is corrupt, or the government a yoke upon the people.
Then this too, represents the people of that nation, and their nature.
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@3RU7AL
I don't see a problem with the Government helping people out if it's able.
Though I think people should be able to help themselves out.
The American people 'are the American government.
If a city possesses a Mayor, Police. It possesses government.
I am not familiar with the details of the Lakota's struggle.
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@secularmerlin
Seems to me government is the expression of the people, for good or ill.
Government is a tool, an expression, an avatar.
To express 'what the people are, is it's nature.
This may be a tyrant, or a democracy.
Slaves, or Freemen.
That we should want the Government to be 'good, is an expression of our nature.
But in the end, the government is a tool.
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@secularmerlin
What does a 'good' government regulation look like?
I don't know. But I'll offer, express the will of the people.
(Edit) - Perhaps as well regulation for the good of the people, despite their will at times. Though 'careful on that one.
Communities that are economically disadvantaged are by definition less able to be 'self reliant'. Does that mean that people in poorer areas are less deserving of education, heat and food? Is deciding whose 'fault' it is that some areas are disadvantaged really more important than finding some solution to the problem?
I do not believe that communities should be 'discriminated against.
I believe that it is in the interest of communities to help one another, for net gain.
The solution, sometimes, feels obvious.
Understanding that one's circumstance rests within our own hands, should give rise to effort, I say.
Rather than being a 'victim of circumstance.
My second brother is a drug addict and a bum, one could argue that his circumstances led to this, that it is not important to place the blame on him, but instead to seek ways to help him.
But I say people should be aware of themselves and their 'own power to endure life, to change it.
It 'IS, my second brothers fault that he is the way he is.
And he 'Deserves such circumstance, so far as any person 'can deserve their circumstance.
We've talked about free will before, and causation.
But without personal 'Responsibility, what becomes of people?
I am saddened by my brothers circumstance, and when I speak of deserve, I mean that more in the sense, that you get what you give.
It's just being practical.
To say a person deserves, is to say what occurs.
. . .
. . .
Perhaps, I'm not set on such an interpretation. But I am a fan of Ego, Pride, Self Worth.
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@SirAnonymous
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@Mopac
No questions from me.
Just wish you well in life.
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@3RU7AL
I 'am Pro Self Reliance, though I don't disagree with Federal Aid/Funding/Emergency Relief.
I figure if communities gave more effort, care, and planning. . They wouldn't 'need the government so much.
If the heating is out in a school, or it doesn't have much money, what type of community is it, that can't look after itself, or has 'NO members of the community able or willing to solve the problem themselves.
Not that I'm one for community or charity work myself.
Just seems to me, people sometimes, perhaps often, have themselves to blame for their circumstance.
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@3RU7AL
If people are 'guaranteed something.
Then it implies 'someone is guaranteeing it.
I'm fairly weak on knowledge of government and economics.
I suppose that people forming Unions is good.
The breaking of Monopolies seems good.
I don't have much of a political framework, well thought out I think.
I like tradition.
I like freedom.
I like limited government.
I like benevolent laws, but again, 'limited laws.
I think communities should solve their own problems, and not blame others, or beg help so much.
I like a balanced amount of economic imports and exports.
I think America should expand more, less our culture be swallowed. By that I mean an immigration policy the same as economic policy.
I think guns are a right, to the able and the proven.
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@secularmerlin
I don't believe in a perfect world.
Except for an odd side idea of this being the best of all possible worlds for 'me, by virtue, I wouldn't be 'me without everything that's happened in my life.
Though it's not a side idea I take very seriously, just one I had 2 or 3 years ago when I read Candide by Voltaire.
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@3RU7AL
(IFF) people were guaranteed a modest and safe life (food, clothing, shelter)
'That sounds like government regulation to me.
Though I suppose a workers union might manage such themselves, still, laws seem to pop up, and if laws are going to be there, better they lean a way we like.
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@Intelligence_06
Define, hive-mind collectivism.
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@Sum1hugme
I think it's ethically wrong.
But then, I figure what a person 'acts on, shows their true view of ethics.
So since I eat meat, though I think it mean, it implies to me that my ethics involve a lot of self interest.
So from a selfish perspective, it's ethically good.
"When your name is Evil, that is good or so you think,
but you're so very wrong.
It's evil!
But being wrong is right, so then you're good again,
which is the evilest thing of all..."
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@Vader
@SirAnonymous
Heh, I 'did not get the joke, and thought there 'was a movie called History.
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Among Us, amateur's could probably make a cheap, cheezy, but entertaining movie of it.
Also has the appeal of the lore not being too fleshed out, as far as I can tell.
Problem of fleshed out lore's, is they can be ruined by other people's interpretations.
'My interpretation of various lores and story is usually the one I like best.
Of movies already made,
I'd say Rooster Teeth did a good job with Red vs Blue, though I only 'really liked seasons 1-5.
Doom 2005,
I thought it was kind of fun, bit cheap, cheezy, but entertaining to me.
Not a classic though, I'd say.
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@seldiora
Sorry for the rambling.
Moral occurrences, and the decision a person would have always take should the variables line up right.
Could make objective morality exist, I suppose, if that's what you're saying.
But then it has the feel of math by itself.
Math is objectively true, but it's only meaningful when applied.
But even when it's applied, it's not actually good or bad, it just 'is.
Similarly morality would become objectively true, and meaningful when applied, but nothing would 'actually be 'good or 'bad.
It'd just be physics. Just causation.
Though popular current morality may call a pirate bad, the pirate and his crew need not see themselves as bad, but realists.
And still the objective morality that might have been used to measure that the pirates would come to such a conclusion and act such a way, does not refer to them as 'bad or 'evil, it just noted that they would appear and make such a judgement.
Same with society that helps, not good or bad, just what will occur under certain circumstance.
Good and bad, morality 'still subjective, even if one can calculate how it will occur.
There's no 'agent in your objective morality.
People can see if they make wolves lawful behavior in society, society becomes violent. That is objective morality.
But still the man has his desires, perhaps he wants violent, perhaps not.
Violent is not good or bad.
Just is.
Man not even good or bad, no such thing exists.
Only objective and meaningless happenstances.
Man happening to 'value certain circumstances.
. . .
Is it what we desire then, that is good?
And what we despise bad?
What we act towards good, even if we grieve for the action?
What we refuse bad, even if we grieve at the refusal?
Ah, rambling.
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@Ancap460
If you don't tell someone, or the audience 'why that person's argument/strawman is wrong.
They might not end up thinking it's wrong, sure.
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@SirAnonymous
"Misotheism is the "hatred of God" or "hatred of the gods" (from the Greek adjective misotheos" - Wikipedia
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@MisterChris
Listened, it'd be an enjoyable 30 minutes +, to listen to, if you had 10-12 songs or so.
An album/CD, you know.
Enjoyed the two you have so far.
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@secularmerlin
We've talked about that before in the past, as I recall, you don't believe in free will.
Though I don't recall the implications of such a conclusion to you, regarding morality.
What 'further conclusions you might reach from that.
. . .
Well, then again, I recall you being against retributive justice.
Which'd imply to me, you think forgivingly towards man, as not guilty or 'all to blame for what they are and their actions.
Though individuals acting out would 'still have to be dealt with.
'Myself I'd think one would fall into a nihilistic interpretation of morality, but being human shrug and turn to practical response to life anyhow.
To my mind though, such a conclusion of a lack of free will undermines solid morality, and one is left with their inclinations of nature and nurture.
Present their case as they like by ego or altruism.
Whatever appeals.
Myself, I find it disorienting.
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@secularmerlin
Hm, I 'do agree with what you say. Subjective morality fellow that I am.
Though some people are rather fixed upon objective morality of the world.
On the 'other hand, my form of being practical, means I treat a large number of moral/ethical questions as though they were objective. Though I don't think they 'actually are, a person's habit is to live by, stick by, some set of rules.
Least unless they're chaotic neutral or possess multiple personalities, I figure.
. . .
Though. . .
'Is morality truly less 'measurable, less subjective than math?
In a 'sense I mean.
If one believes in causation and materialism, then certain material happenings are always going to pan out to the same moral conclusions.
If the exact same actors meet the exact same sets I mean.
It's just that one 'could measure moral conclusions a person would arrive at, as clear as material physics.
I 'think, if we had the right tools to accurately measure everything.
. . .
Are morals 'so subjective?
Lacking 'something to use as a common object, I mean.
Though I still hold to moral nihilism regardless.
People are 'mostly alike, similar DNA, similar senses, planet, culture,
All the more so the more humans homogenize.
edit,
Illusion though that homogenization may be, when it claims and depicts the common morality.
Herd thinking.
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@MarkWebberFan
...Surely it's bad for a soldier to be physically lacking, but does a merchant who's ventures have paid 'still need physical capability?I think it is in the merchant's best interest to possess Larsen's "Might is right". Irrespective of physical capability, I think the merchant would have to be held morally responsible for Weena's death if and only if she was there with Weena. IMHO, her wealth does not absolve her from moral responsibilities.
That's a very civic/social minded viewpoint. Can't say I disagree when it's applied 'to nations in which duty and civics to other people is placed in high value and obligation.
These are useful counter examples to Larsen's "might is right". Moreover, I think being idle is preferable than being an imperialist. At least, I would say so based on the examples you've listed. That said, I would argue that those examples are exactly why everyone should refrain from golden rules in moral dilemmas but that's a different topic for a different time. - MarkWebberFan
Developed off where I agreed partly, and disagreed partly with secularmerlin's main point of the forum, whether ethics ought be justifiable without appeal to authority.
Myself saying pretty much saying yes to a degree, people after all 'must have 'some sort of reasoning for what they follow and do in life. What/Why they trust or believe.
'But, I argue it can be 'very primitive, or minimalized, subconscious instinctual habit. To the point people pay it little mind, so long as it 'seems to work, or that they can push the duty of thinking off onto authority, so long as all is going well.
3RU7AL then pointing out, that if the ethical decisions are going 'clearly wrong by causing harm, death, and danger to other people, then oughtn't the person show a greater interest in the soundness of the ethics?
Which I 'do agree with, but the problem is that most people's ethics work well enough, seemingly at least. What with society indoctrinating people into similar ideas of what is culturally acceptable. People habituating themselves to such lifestyles. Most people don't go about causing wild mayhem, thus needing their ethics checked. If they do, they see a psychologist or a jailer.
And then there's also the problem that harm, death, and danger to other people, isn't necessarily a person's ethics malfunctioning from their perspective. What with people having different ideas of what life's all about and such. What goals one should achieve, ethics in relation to others one should have, what value and place other people/s have in the world.
Which brought the topic to the sidebar,
Myself, I'm fairly self interested, rather than community interested. - LemmingThat is a common condition. If it were not for self interest overcoming our sense of empathy would we even need ethics? - secularmerlinDo you think all the "good intentions" would short-circuit any and all "moral culpability" (requirement for punitive "punishment")? - 3RU7AL
And the list of counter examples I gave, arguing that even a person lacking selfish interest, could wreck terrible harm upon others for those other people's own good.
I don't quite agree that they serve as a counter to the "might is right" argument though.
To me "might is right, as, 'always been a flawed statement, that would be truer 'put as,
Might is reality, or 'Force is reality, what.
After all, no matter one's strength, people can possess different beliefs of right and wrong, even if they are weak. So long as they exist anyhow,
Though, one 'would cease to exist by my thinking, if they were killed, tortured to a different frame of mind, or lobotomized.
Existing beings being what assigns meaning to reality by my way of thinking.
Though certain patterns are likely to occur for sentient beings I'd think, that'd call certain realities of life and being good or evil.
. . .
Though as a rule of thumb of a common social perspective, a truism of human nature often, "might is right" works well enough.
People often enough being willing to cheer the victor, rewrite history.
Or as Larson does, view it more philosophically as a desirable attribute and state of what is good for an individual or group.
Bit rambling, but ah well.
edit,
. . .
secularmerlin's main point of the forum, whether ethics ought be justifiable without appeal to authority.
We defer 'medical knowledge to doctors,
Politics to politicians,
Rocket science, to Rocket scientists,
We still have 'some opinion/justification about the medical, politics, rocket science.
But even in very 'free societies, so long as the disease is cured, our rights aren't trampled, the rocket flies.
People don't deem to mind deferring and appealing to authority.
To an extent anyhow,
After all, even if a guy's a rocket scientist, if he builds it out of wood, I'm going to have some questions.
It'd be nice to have the time and wisdom to justify one's ethics as much as ethical authority.
But not everyone has the time or mind for it.
Thus practicality takes place, and it seems reasonable to me, that some people defer 'much of their ethical thought onto someone they see as reliable/trustworthy.
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@secularmerlin
Many financial pursuits are finite, rather than repeatable pursuits.This is not bad, simply fact.Good and bad are subjective terms that only have meaning when we have a frame of reference for them. The capitalist frame of reference is profit. Anything that limits profits is therefore "bad" within the capitalist framework. Any argument t pl the contrary is coming from a different frame of refer.
'Companies and some individuals 'do tend to make profits the be all, end all, of their pursuits I suppose.
The guiding framework that they operate.
In short the problem with capitalism is that it is a system which is especially permissive of being expansionist, resource greedy and self preferential.
Fits humans well then.
Still, it get's regulated in some form eventually.
Whether by policy or revolution.
Nature of society and man to function for a time, then fall apart.
Rise and fall of nations and all.
Side note, cigarettes 'obviously harmful.
I enjoyed the books Runaway Jury and the Rainmaker by John Grisham
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@secularmerlin
Perhaps you do not understand the thought experiment proposed by Mr. Burnham. As the CEO of a company that makes rape whistles you started with one goal but the financial reality is that accomplishing the goal will ruin you financially and all of your employees will be out of a job. In other words you are now in a position of being punished if you do happen to accomplish your original goal. Capitalism at it's most basic only rewards profits.
Many financial pursuits are finite, rather than repeatable pursuits.
This is not bad, simply fact.
Regulations to restrain greed are a temporary stop gap at best. Greed will then be ever vigilant for ways to circumvent or repeal these regulations.
Good and evil forever in a push and pull, fact of life.
The only real way to effect change in a capitalist system is to monetize selling less of your product as it becomes less necessary. What regulation do you propose be put in place? Shall we subsidize rape whistle companies commensurate with the losses they experience as their product accomplishes the end they originally set put to achieve? Do we do this with every conceivable enterprise? How do we subsidize everything? Where would the money come from? Capitalism is not equipped to prioritize human welfare.
Regarding rape whistles, government simply prevents Monopoly from being held by 'one interest.
And pursues regulation that combats the existence of rape in society.
People don't mind others pursuit of profit, but there are limits. If a company advocated for more rape, just so they can sell whistles, society ought be hostile towards that company that encourages a social ill for it's own profits.
I'm sure some people would like a number of products such as drugs to be 'completely unregulated, sellable even to children.
But people 'have regulations to prevent that.
Have regulations to prevent even certain drugs being glamorized in children ads.
Can be a balancing act, but societies manage.
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@HistoryBuff
That's just politics.
Politics is often dirty, rude, and annoying..
Republicans seem to be better at playing by and following the rules, 'technically. Which to me is the important part.
Democrats cry foul where there's no technical breaking of the law, then do something absurd such as suggesting to add as many people to the Supreme Court as they feel like.
Democrats say it's fine for people to break the law and enter into this country illegally.
Democrats say it's fine for protestors to ignore Covid19 safety, and then go about knocking down historical monuments.
Though, I'm getting too far into misrepresenting and caricaturizing.
It's my interpretation of the Democrats,
They 'should have been able to deal with Trump just fine when he was elected, but they just keep veering left, and going after activities of Trump that Trump can defend 'technically. Seems to me.
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@secularmerlin
An understanding of possessions, gain, loss.
Seems pretty ingrained in humans, people.
There 'have been societies that placed merchants in lower class/caste/esteem.
Have been authorities in countries that legalized against monopolies, and legalized toward worker unions.
Still, influential people and powers seem to arise in most systems of government.
Oligarchs in Russia, China.
Ceo's in America.
Military leaders in Nazi Germany.
Best method would just be encouraging of ethical and moral 'good amongst people low and high, I'd think. And regulations to restrain greed.
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@secularmerlin
How would you 'avoid the problem of capitalism?
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@Mopac
If you believe it will bring meaning, fulfillment, happiness, right to your life, that it is a good path to live in life. Then I wish you well.
. . .
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@secularmerlin
Sure, a company wanting to make profit can cause trouble to society.
Whether with your whistle example,
Or the car companies in America, General Motors streetcar conspiracy.
Though I thought the scope of the railway's efforts were bigger, and the reason America doesn't have railroads all about it, as some older countries in the world, seems I was mistaken. Still it shows a company interested in profit more than society, but then people often see their profit as societies interest.
The light bulb,
Cell phones.
Though I still read about all these conspiracies with a bit of salt. I'm often wary of becoming some conspiracy nut.
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@zedvictor4
Puppet President
Eh, he probably has backers, that he has ties to, financial support from, but I don't think I'd quite go as far as him being a puppet.
Still 5 months later, I'm not sure if he disregards Covid19 as dangerous, or discounts the human deaths as incomparable to the economy and his own career.
Maybe a bit of both, best political move would have been 'massive Covid19 response right in the beginning, maybe he's in too deep now to change policy on it.
Been about 9 months since Covid19 been in America I think.
About 328 million people in the USA.
Almost 8 million cases of Covid19,
215 thousand, doesn't 'seem like that many dead to me.
But perhaps my perspective marginalizes the disaster that might have been, might be.
Perhaps marginalizes deaths.
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@Dr.Franklin
Why the Left Hates White People | Heck Off, Commie!
Interesting video, though I get the same bent I usually get, about worrying about being 'too far right.
Communism. . . Eh, I would become tangential if I start commenting maybe.
Bobblehead Jesus, does that indicate religion or a lack of I wonder?
Left 'has made a bad public showing 'I think lately, though it seems as though most people and polls might disagree with me.
Right's been 'lucky they haven't had 'as many extremists messing up their reputation.
Kyle Rittenhouse incident could have been much worse for example, depending on who he shot.
Though the more recent Kidnapping Plot Against Whitmer looks darn stupid for people on the right.
Sure one might not call them 'true right wingers, but hey, if I'm going to identify rioting statue topplers as on the left. . .
Your videos topic made me worry about being radicalized to the right a bit, in the beginning,
Now as I agree with much of what he's said, I worry I'm 'already radicalized. (Joke bit)
Maybe a 'bit too much claim in it of antiwhite feeling in America, maybe.
And 'maybe a bit too conspiratorial in some parts, I'm not sure.
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Eh, saw this topic a time ago while browsing old topics.
Figured might as well bump it when the day came about.
In Defense of Columbus: An Exaggerated Evil
Acknowledging the Past | Columbus in Context
Not saying I'm Pro Columbus Day or anything.
I kind of think the government declaring days when the population shall celebrate bothersome, a bit, but maybe such holiday declarations serve purposes.
I just like context, and have disliked statue tipping for a number of years, though I wonder if it was a statue of King George, would it bother me? Eh.
If there was no official holiday, I doubt I'd 'celebrate it, maybe just make a note of it if it happened to be on my mind.
A year is only 'so long, lots of historical events happen every day.
Though I suppose Columbus Day 'is related to 'one of modern USA's roots.
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@SkepticalOne
It's difficult to apply blanket statement to those two groupings.
It can only be applied to individuals and subgroups of those larger groups. Maybe.
Maybe Intelligence_06 means, the problem atheists and theists, maybe he argues 'most atheists and theists act that way, maybe he means 'vocal internet minority, maybe he's speaking of specific group of such individuals on a debate site, maybe he speaks of his personal experiences with atheists and theists in general.
I couldn't say.
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@SkepticalOne
1. Are atheists REALLy nitpicking..or pointing out what requires little interpretation?2. Are theists REALLY interpreting the Bible too literally...how do you know?
To Q1,Yes and no, and to Q2, yes and no.
'I think.
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@zedvictor4
Well, people have different pursuits and interests.
Different ideas about the purposes of life.
Financial success 'I'd think would be the gaining and holding of money and assets.
Maybe some other people would think you need to be 'spending that money as well, enjoying and spreading it more than hording it, for it to be financial success.
Lot of people think success at job is promotion and more money, others it might be easy job and 'enough money.
Some people think life success is job, family, kids, security, and retirement.
I'd see success in life more as acquiring financial asset, security, power, group, that I have the freedom to do as I like in life without worry. Be it hedonism or an altruistic bent.
Some people'd rather hermit themselves away from the world, be as an island, just finding peace and contentment in life's bare necessities.
Rambling a bit.
I think the answer depends, but to me success is measured by the achievement towards what one strives for, which again, can be a bunch of different objectives.
edit,
Though I 'still think I'm succeeding at life by having my physiological, safety, belonging, social, esteem, needs met.
Just happens I could be succeeding more, if I was capable, or wanted to. One of those two, or both.
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@zedvictor4
Depends on the type of success being measured.
Maslow's Hierarchy, seems a decent, if basic, measure, to me.
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@Death23
I know it's a misrepresentation, but it's this type of behavior and thinking, that I associate with the Democrats.
That I find such actions unacceptable, is why I have such difficulty rooting for the Democrats.
I see criminals, then I see Democrats tiptoe around the issue, how are they 'better than Trump and the issues 'he tiptoes around.
Even if I don't care for Trump, at least it's the 'direction of people who are proud and possessive of their country, and it's history.
Police declare riot as protesters topple statues, break windows in downtown Portland during 'Day of Rage'
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@SkepticalOne
Depending on context, yes, I'm thinking.
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@SkepticalOne
1. Are atheists REALLy nitpicking..or pointing out what requires little interpretation?2. Are theists REALLY interpreting the Bible too literally...how do you know?
'Some of them. But both terms atheist and theist, encompass such large groupings, it can't 'quite be applied. Except in reference to those 'some of them.
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@3RU7AL
Life can be hard, always 'seemed to me that such factored heavily into Judaism.
Suffering, perseverance, and celebration of what one has.
Though maybe that's me stereotyping/misunderstanding the religion, first thing that popped to my head today as I thought about this subject again, 'was a fictional musical.
To Life
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@3RU7AL
Aggression, Activity, Self Interest, Anger, Being Aggrieved, Power.
'Can lead to individual success. Being the first to seize opportunity, or not minding stepping on others.
Maybe not 'too good for society, or interpersonal functional happy relationships, maybe not even fulfilling long term (I couldn't say)
'Also can be instead 'really 'dysfunction, and opposite of success.
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@Smithereens
Somehow externals of a person, seems a bit like mind reading to me.
Whether it's language, body language, physiological reactions, or neuroimages.
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@3RU7AL
"Shock collars, or food vaults, or robot armies."
Hahaha.
Preppers exist in many strata of society.
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@3RU7AL
Ah, secularmerlin linked me that video as well.
I like it.
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@3RU7AL
How The Rich Are Dealing With Coronavirus - SOME MORE NEWS
I stopped watching about 6 minutes in, but I did find one of the comments about the video funny.
"Some of you may die, but that's a sacrifice I am willing to make." - Lord Farquad
Alita Battle Angel: The story of the great war, (The Fall).
Reminds me of Elysium (film 2013)
Some parts of life stay with time it seems.
Whether it's locusts or invading armies, the rulers and elites have their stockpiles and castles.
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